Do you understand the creation model?

Gospel_van

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Prologue:
After writing this post I figured this would be a great way to start the post.
In order to understand creationism you must fully immerse yourself in the model and have a complete understanding—not just the knowledge of a few mechanisms otherwise you will not see the whole picture. Take for example this illusion:



Deepening on how your brain works you see either a rabbit or a duck. Simply by thinking about the one of the two animals your brain will find it and the illusion changes from a duck to a rabbit or vice versa. In order to understand the creation model you need to fully understand the model to see the full picture. Knowing a couple of mechanisms or ideas relating to creationism will give you an incomplete view and you will fall back on the ideas you were taught in school; the ideas that you know so well. As Christians, I think it is obligatory to at least learn and understand a model based on the bible. A good creation model is based on God's word and explains our reality based on the truth found in the bible. There are no contradictions with God's word and the bible—if you do not know this you are ignorant to the creation model. My goal with this discussion is not necessarily to convince you God created the world in 6 days, but to encourage you to look deeper and understand the creation theory that harmonizes with God's word and reality.

Let us begin.
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called.
1 Timothy 6:20

I believe that a model, using a literal interpretation of the bible, gives us clarity and understanding of the origins of life on earth and that the evolutionary model is unnecessary to explaining our origins and earths biodiversity. I believe the bible tells us our origins in the First chapter of Genesis. Through Genealogies in the Bible we can deduce that the time between Adams birth and present is around 6,000 years ago and the flood being around 4,400 years. Mind you, I came to these beliefs (and to Jesus) after being an atheist my entire adult life preaching evolution, astronomy and bashing on Christians.

I do not believe in Evolution in the sense that all life came from a single ancestor. However, I do believe what is observed—that animals evolve, or adapt, or speciate, or become best fit for their environment as Darwin observed on the separated islands in the Galapagos. Now if you read Genesis 1 the text clearly states that God creates the animals, the plants, the birds, the cattle, etc and He says to let "the earth bring forth the living creature. God created the kind of animals and let's the earth "bring forth" more of its kind.

Verse 24:
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creatures after his kind, cattle, and creeping things, and beasts of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Now let's focus on the words: "Let the earth bring forth living creature after his kind." God is letting the earth bring forth the different kinds of creatures...BUT according to their kinds. God created all the KINDS of animals and plants, as stated in Genesis 1, and allows the earth to bring forth more types of animals and plants according to their KINDS.

Genesis 1:25 (KJV)
The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds.

For example God creates a bear, which is a kind of animal. The land brought forth the grizzly bear, the black bear, polar bear, panda bear, and so on but only according to the kind of animal God originally created. That is, the land will never bring forth an animal that strictly deviates the body plan originally given by God and becomes another kind. So when Darwin observed the different species of Finches on the Galapagos and hypothesized that they all came from a single ancestral finch, I agree with him. I believe that God made that ancestral finch that then evolved, or adapted or speciated ACCORDING TO ITS KIND (a finch) and is now a more specialized, and better fit for its environment. This can now be traced genetically.

Geneticists have discovered on/off switches in genes. These can be hereditary and change every generation. If the gene is masked there are no instructions to make the necessary protein and that function is lost but the gene is still present in the genome and geneticists can look at them. Never have they ever found misplaced genes. For instance, a bear does not have masked genes to grow feathers, just an example. No where in the "ancestry" of the DNA has a bear had a genes to grow feathers or anything outside its original body plan. The bear can grow big, according to its body plan, it can turn different colors, it can adapt to the cold or heat, it can change its digestive track all ACCORDING TO ITS KIND but it cannot, never has and never will be able to grow feathers, as an example.

All of this is confirmed once again in Genesis 7 when God commands Noah to put a male and female of each animal...ACCORDING TO THEIR KIND. God preserved the animals according to their kinds, male and female. So, Noah did not take both a polar bear and a grizzly bear. Instead, Noah took a single bear. Post flood, the Bears repopulated (as God commanded in Gen 8) and scattered upon the earth (as God commanded) and the earth brought forth the adaptations of the kinds which turned the bear on the ark into a polar bear, a grizzly bear, a panda bear, and so on (as God commanded). The mechanism God used is the environment to pick out the best genes available within the genome God originally created. God designed the DNA to literally have on/off switches that can be manipulated by environmental pressures.

After Noah's flood the animals got off the ark according to their kinds (Genesis 8), repopulated, scattered and become all the species we see today in just 4400 years. Coming from the idea that it takes millions of years to speciate, this number seems ridiculous. Do understand, I don't believe the time required for evolution from a single cell to mammals is required because God created each kind instantly, this would cut off billions of UNNECESSARY time. Let me show you some empirical/observable evidence that fully supports rapid adaptation to the environment making the 4400 years allotted very reasonable.

But first, let us get acquainted with the vastness of diversification of plants and animals:

Vertebrates:
Amphibians: 6,199 Species
Birds: 9,956
Fish: 30,000
Mammals: 5,416
Reptiles: 8,240
Subtotal: 59,811

Insects: 950,000

Plants: 297,326

*Source: The International Union for Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources (IUCN) 2007 Red List.

Now let's look at the total amount of families. Note: What the evolutionary community refers to as a family roughy equates to a 'kind' created by God. Research Baraminology to learn more about differences—but for our discussion the numbers we have for families is a fair estimate for the original kinds God creates.

Vertebrates:
Amphibians: 61 Families
Birds: 170
Fish: 522
Mammals: 136
Reptiles: 57

Using this data, on average, each mammal FAMILY (or KINDS, as the bible names it) yields 40 species, or variations. However, the family Muridae (Rodents) accounts for over 700 species as opposed to Urisidae (Bears) with 8 species and Canidae (wolves, fox, jackal, dog, etc) with 34 species. A few reason why we see more rodents than bears and canines can be the quicker lifespan and gestation period of rodents. The average gestation period is around 2 weeks and life span 2 years. Additionally, rodents birth up upwards of 10 babies per litter. The more generations and less time allows the rodents to specialize to their environment better. With each generation, through environmental pressures, manipulates the genes (on or off), and the genes that are best fit for the environment are more likely to produce offspring and through this whole chain of events more and more specialized rodents will appear. The idea that shorter life span, quicker gestation period and bigger litter is confirmed in the insect world. Massive reproduction rate, the quick gestation and maturing period allows thousands of generations to occur in the time of 1 monkey lifetime. These traits shared by insects are advantageous in speeding up the process of adapting to their environment.

We should expect to see animals rapidly change to new threats from the environment. These threats could include introduction of invasive plant or animal species, natural disasters making permanent change, or even complete relocation of the animal by artificial or natural means.

All kinds of animals adapt to their environment to the best of their ability based on the genes that can be manipulated (turned on or off) by environmental pressures. The greater the environmental pressure is—the quicker the adaptations are made and the quicker a new species comes into existence. It has been documented how rapidly rodents can change morphological at least 15 morphological features corresponding to changes in human population density, current temperature gradients, and/or trends in temperature and precipitation. Rodents have morphologically changed drastically over the past 100+ years both on mainland and island environment, likely due to human population. When a new environment is introduced to the rodents, due to increased human population, temperature, etc rapid change occurs. This rapid change will never change the rodent into having features that are outside of its body plan—outside the available information in the genome. Never has any information ever been added to the genome. Another example of rapid microevolution would be the Italian wall lizards and the drastic changes of their digestive tract.

It was in 1971 when some biologists relocated 5 Italian wall lizards to a neighboring island. They came back some 30 years later to find the original 5 lizards' descendants of over 5,000 lizards. Genetically tested to be ancestors of the original 5 the modern lizards have an additional digestive structure—a muscle between the large and small intestine—that allows the lizard to eat a more vegetarian diet; the environment pressured the lizard to eat a vegetarian diet due to lack of other food sources. Additionally, the lizards head grew longer and bigger than before allowing it to bite down harder. The plentiful food made the lizard more of a social animal, reproduction rates increased and terrible defenses decreased (the lizard isn't as aggressive). These changes all happened in 30 generations and 30 years. Imagine what 4400 years can do!

The Flood of Noah occurred 4400 years ago based in given biblical chronology. In Genesis, we learn that God allows the animals to adapt to their environment but only according to their kind. We have observed rapid change in animals in short periods of time when introduced to a new environment—keep in mind that after the flood the animals would be under a lot of stress provoking quicker adaptation to their new land; this concept has been observed. In terms of explanation of biodiversity on the planet, I don't see any issues. Breakdown: Animals got off ark > repopulated locally > animals scattered upon the earth (possibly aided post Babel and the scattering of the people) > animals, under high stress, made changes in their genome to adapt to their environment > over 1000's of years we have the biodiversity we see today.

I do not believe that their is any massive conspiracy with all the evolutionary biologists trying to trick the ignoramuses of the world into believing in evolution. I do not think the scientists are stupid (ignorant, but smart). I believe that there is plenty of evidence supporting macro evolution. "I would argue that the type of evidence expected from macro evolution is also expected to be there if macro evolution is false.

For example, if Santa Claus is true I would expect gifts under the Christmas tree this year. But if Santa Claus is not true it does not follow necessarily, to expect no gifts under the Christmas tree this year.


This is called the denial of the antecedent.


"If macro evolution is true, then evidence X.

If macro evolution is not true, therefore NOT evidence X.

(Denial of the antecedent fallacy.)


I acknowledge that there is evidence you might expect to exist if evolution were true, certainly if mammals and reptiles evolved from a common ancestor or an amphibian, we might expect homological bones. I agree that the evidence seems to be similar to the evidence expected from a common design. It may well be that those bone-patterns simply are the only ones that work, or maybe they are the only ones that work best (the most superior design).


If God is omniscient, which He is, then every design will be the design of best choice. This logically follows and is expected from an all-wise God, therefore we should not expect a rabbit to NOT have homological bones, if that design is the best design.


The real question is this; "if there is evidence for evolution, is it the type we would expect, and is it the amount we would expect?"


It certainly is only the amount we would actually expect had evolution not occurred. In the same way we would only expect a handful of lottery winners out of millions of attempts, when we have millions of species on earth, we would also expect a handful to look like they evolved. But if we did evolve we would expect generally to see transitionals in abundance, of every type/body plan."


We could go back and forth with evidence that supports our view and I can counter it with how it supports my view and so on. Nothing in reality contradicts our Genesis. The contradictions exist when mans interpretations trumps God's word. Make God be truth and every man a liar (Romans 3:4). The bible is given by inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16) and supports a rational worldview. We can be certain the bible was inspired by God because it's prophecy and fulfillment; proving the ability for the writer to of had knowledge outside their time domain—the writers claimed this knowledge came from God. God wrote the bible in that sense. The bible displays arcane knowledge that no one else knew at the time. Job 38:31 talks about the Pleiades being bound together. Most astronomers even today are ignorant to the fact that the Pleiades are gravitationally bound, yet the writer of Job must of known? Job was quoting God. Etched in stone God declares in Exodus 20:11

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

It is very clear that God makes it clear the earth was created in six literal days!

Again in

Our creator left us with a book and told us it was inspired by Him and breathed by Him. Why are we not defaulting this view until proven otherwise? Do you not understand that the same pile of evidence used to support evolution can interpreted as effect from Noah's flood, creation, biblical events.



For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Matthew 13:22



I never used to think it was wise to try and convince another Christian to drop evolution/old earth for creationism, young earth, flood, etc until I understood this verse more intimately. I believe that delusion began in the garden of Eden when satan told Eden "Ye shall be as God's." That has always been the deception, he has played off our pride and made us masters of our world. I believe that evolution will be a mechanism in the end times delusion that tricks the world into accepting the antichrist instead of Jesus as end times prophecy has foretold. Additionally, as a personal testimony, the bible has come to make more sense the more I understand it better as I learn more and more about what the bible says is true about our reality.



This was a very brief intro into the theory of creation but I encourage everyone to look deeper as I have given you very information. Please feel free to ask specific questions!
 

John Hyperspace

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"Ye shall be as God's." That has always been the deception

Nothing against the main post; but the serpent said "You will be as gods knowing good and evil" and that wasn't a deception or a lie, it was true, and thus the Lord said, "The man has become as one of us knowing good and evil" Genesis 3:22. The lie was "you will not surely die"
 
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sfs

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Geneticists have discovered on/off switches in genes. These can be hereditary and change every generation. If the gene is masked there are no instructions to make the necessary protein and that function is lost but the gene is still present in the genome and geneticists can look at them. Never have they ever found misplaced genes. For instance, a bear does not have masked genes to grow feathers, just an example.
Maybe you should talk to more geneticists. We find lots of genes that are inherited but no longer used by various species. An obvious example is the GULO gene, which is needed to making vitamin C. All higher primates have the gene, and it's broken in all of them, with a pattern of shared damage that shows they inherited a broken copy.
 
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Speedwell

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This is called the denial of the antecedent.
The best example of this fallacy comes from creationists.

If Genesis is the literal and inerrant word of God, then we are fallen sinners in need of redemption.

From which creationists erroneously conclude,

If Genesis is not the literal and inerrant word of God, then we are not fallen sinners in need of redemption.
 
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The Stamp

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This was a very brief intro into the theory of creation but I encourage everyone to look deeper as I have given you very information.
How does an old story become a theory? is 'How the leopard got it's spots' story by Rudyard Kipling a theory?
Should stories be considered to be true if you want them to be true or if you believe them to be true? or is something more needed?
 
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essentialsaltes

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If God is omniscient, which He is, then every design will be the design of best choice. This logically follows and is expected from an all-wise God, therefore we should not expect a rabbit to NOT have homological bones, if that design is the best design.

Please feel free to ask specific questions!

It seems unreasonable to think that the bone structure of the mammalian forelimb, for instance, is the best design for the human arm, the bat wing, and the whale flipper.

This idea also fails to take into account the situations where structures are different. If your god always chooses the best design, why are the designs for the vertebrate eye, the cephalapod eye, the insect eye, etc. all different?

I have the sinking feeling that your god makes them the same when it would be the best design for them to be the same, but he makes them different when it would be the best design for them to be different. This of course, explains nothing, whereas evolution provides an actual explanation of these similarities and differences. And evolution provides testable predictions -- we predict we will never find a new rodent species with insect eyes. If we ever do, we'll have to take a good hard look at the theory. As it is, evolution has been a very successful theory and has passed the tests of the past 150 years coming out ever more stronger as new evidence comes in.
 
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CrystalDragon

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Prologue:
After writing this post I figured this would be a great way to start the post.
In order to understand creationism you must fully immerse yourself in the model and have a complete understanding—not just the knowledge of a few mechanisms otherwise you will not see the whole picture. Take for example this illusion:



Deepening on how your brain works you see either a rabbit or a duck. Simply by thinking about the one of the two animals your brain will find it and the illusion changes from a duck to a rabbit or vice versa. In order to understand the creation model you need to fully understand the model to see the full picture. Knowing a couple of mechanisms or ideas relating to creationism will give you an incomplete view and you will fall back on the ideas you were taught in school; the ideas that you know so well. As Christians, I think it is obligatory to at least learn and understand a model based on the bible. A good creation model is based on God's word and explains our reality based on the truth found in the bible. There are no contradictions with God's word and the bible—if you do not know this you are ignorant to the creation model. My goal with this discussion is not necessarily to convince you God created the world in 6 days, but to encourage you to look deeper and understand the creation theory that harmonizes with God's word and reality.

Let us begin.
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called.
1 Timothy 6:20

I believe that a model, using a literal interpretation of the bible, gives us clarity and understanding of the origins of life on earth and that the evolutionary model is unnecessary to explaining our origins and earths biodiversity. I believe the bible tells us our origins in the First chapter of Genesis. Through Genealogies in the Bible we can deduce that the time between Adams birth and present is around 6,000 years ago and the flood being around 4,400 years. Mind you, I came to these beliefs (and to Jesus) after being an atheist my entire adult life preaching evolution, astronomy and bashing on Christians.

I do not believe in Evolution in the sense that all life came from a single ancestor. However, I do believe what is observed—that animals evolve, or adapt, or speciate, or become best fit for their environment as Darwin observed on the separated islands in the Galapagos. Now if you read Genesis 1 the text clearly states that God creates the animals, the plants, the birds, the cattle, etc and He says to let "the earth bring forth the living creature. God created the kind of animals and let's the earth "bring forth" more of its kind.

Verse 24:
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creatures after his kind, cattle, and creeping things, and beasts of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Now let's focus on the words: "Let the earth bring forth living creature after his kind." God is letting the earth bring forth the different kinds of creatures...BUT according to their kinds. God created all the KINDS of animals and plants, as stated in Genesis 1, and allows the earth to bring forth more types of animals and plants according to their KINDS.

Genesis 1:25 (KJV)
The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds.

For example God creates a bear, which is a kind of animal. The land brought forth the grizzly bear, the black bear, polar bear, panda bear, and so on but only according to the kind of animal God originally created. That is, the land will never bring forth an animal that strictly deviates the body plan originally given by God and becomes another kind. So when Darwin observed the different species of Finches on the Galapagos and hypothesized that they all came from a single ancestral finch, I agree with him. I believe that God made that ancestral finch that then evolved, or adapted or speciated ACCORDING TO ITS KIND (a finch) and is now a more specialized, and better fit for its environment. This can now be traced genetically.

Geneticists have discovered on/off switches in genes. These can be hereditary and change every generation. If the gene is masked there are no instructions to make the necessary protein and that function is lost but the gene is still present in the genome and geneticists can look at them. Never have they ever found misplaced genes. For instance, a bear does not have masked genes to grow feathers, just an example. No where in the "ancestry" of the DNA has a bear had a genes to grow feathers or anything outside its original body plan. The bear can grow big, according to its body plan, it can turn different colors, it can adapt to the cold or heat, it can change its digestive track all ACCORDING TO ITS KIND but it cannot, never has and never will be able to grow feathers, as an example.

All of this is confirmed once again in Genesis 7 when God commands Noah to put a male and female of each animal...ACCORDING TO THEIR KIND. God preserved the animals according to their kinds, male and female. So, Noah did not take both a polar bear and a grizzly bear. Instead, Noah took a single bear. Post flood, the Bears repopulated (as God commanded in Gen 8) and scattered upon the earth (as God commanded) and the earth brought forth the adaptations of the kinds which turned the bear on the ark into a polar bear, a grizzly bear, a panda bear, and so on (as God commanded). The mechanism God used is the environment to pick out the best genes available within the genome God originally created. God designed the DNA to literally have on/off switches that can be manipulated by environmental pressures.

After Noah's flood the animals got off the ark according to their kinds (Genesis 8), repopulated, scattered and become all the species we see today in just 4400 years. Coming from the idea that it takes millions of years to speciate, this number seems ridiculous. Do understand, I don't believe the time required for evolution from a single cell to mammals is required because God created each kind instantly, this would cut off billions of UNNECESSARY time. Let me show you some empirical/observable evidence that fully supports rapid adaptation to the environment making the 4400 years allotted very reasonable.

But first, let us get acquainted with the vastness of diversification of plants and animals:

Vertebrates:
Amphibians: 6,199 Species
Birds: 9,956
Fish: 30,000
Mammals: 5,416
Reptiles: 8,240
Subtotal: 59,811

Insects: 950,000

Plants: 297,326

*Source: The International Union for Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources (IUCN) 2007 Red List.

Now let's look at the total amount of families. Note: What the evolutionary community refers to as a family roughy equates to a 'kind' created by God. Research Baraminology to learn more about differences—but for our discussion the numbers we have for families is a fair estimate for the original kinds God creates.

Vertebrates:
Amphibians: 61 Families
Birds: 170
Fish: 522
Mammals: 136
Reptiles: 57

Using this data, on average, each mammal FAMILY (or KINDS, as the bible names it) yields 40 species, or variations. However, the family Muridae (Rodents) accounts for over 700 species as opposed to Urisidae (Bears) with 8 species and Canidae (wolves, fox, jackal, dog, etc) with 34 species. A few reason why we see more rodents than bears and canines can be the quicker lifespan and gestation period of rodents. The average gestation period is around 2 weeks and life span 2 years. Additionally, rodents birth up upwards of 10 babies per litter. The more generations and less time allows the rodents to specialize to their environment better. With each generation, through environmental pressures, manipulates the genes (on or off), and the genes that are best fit for the environment are more likely to produce offspring and through this whole chain of events more and more specialized rodents will appear. The idea that shorter life span, quicker gestation period and bigger litter is confirmed in the insect world. Massive reproduction rate, the quick gestation and maturing period allows thousands of generations to occur in the time of 1 monkey lifetime. These traits shared by insects are advantageous in speeding up the process of adapting to their environment.

We should expect to see animals rapidly change to new threats from the environment. These threats could include introduction of invasive plant or animal species, natural disasters making permanent change, or even complete relocation of the animal by artificial or natural means.

All kinds of animals adapt to their environment to the best of their ability based on the genes that can be manipulated (turned on or off) by environmental pressures. The greater the environmental pressure is—the quicker the adaptations are made and the quicker a new species comes into existence. It has been documented how rapidly rodents can change morphological at least 15 morphological features corresponding to changes in human population density, current temperature gradients, and/or trends in temperature and precipitation. Rodents have morphologically changed drastically over the past 100+ years both on mainland and island environment, likely due to human population. When a new environment is introduced to the rodents, due to increased human population, temperature, etc rapid change occurs. This rapid change will never change the rodent into having features that are outside of its body plan—outside the available information in the genome. Never has any information ever been added to the genome. Another example of rapid microevolution would be the Italian wall lizards and the drastic changes of their digestive tract.

It was in 1971 when some biologists relocated 5 Italian wall lizards to a neighboring island. They came back some 30 years later to find the original 5 lizards' descendants of over 5,000 lizards. Genetically tested to be ancestors of the original 5 the modern lizards have an additional digestive structure—a muscle between the large and small intestine—that allows the lizard to eat a more vegetarian diet; the environment pressured the lizard to eat a vegetarian diet due to lack of other food sources. Additionally, the lizards head grew longer and bigger than before allowing it to bite down harder. The plentiful food made the lizard more of a social animal, reproduction rates increased and terrible defenses decreased (the lizard isn't as aggressive). These changes all happened in 30 generations and 30 years. Imagine what 4400 years can do!

The Flood of Noah occurred 4400 years ago based in given biblical chronology. In Genesis, we learn that God allows the animals to adapt to their environment but only according to their kind. We have observed rapid change in animals in short periods of time when introduced to a new environment—keep in mind that after the flood the animals would be under a lot of stress provoking quicker adaptation to their new land; this concept has been observed. In terms of explanation of biodiversity on the planet, I don't see any issues. Breakdown: Animals got off ark > repopulated locally > animals scattered upon the earth (possibly aided post Babel and the scattering of the people) > animals, under high stress, made changes in their genome to adapt to their environment > over 1000's of years we have the biodiversity we see today.

I do not believe that their is any massive conspiracy with all the evolutionary biologists trying to trick the ignoramuses of the world into believing in evolution. I do not think the scientists are stupid (ignorant, but smart). I believe that there is plenty of evidence supporting macro evolution. "I would argue that the type of evidence expected from macro evolution is also expected to be there if macro evolution is false.

For example, if Santa Claus is true I would expect gifts under the Christmas tree this year. But if Santa Claus is not true it does not follow necessarily, to expect no gifts under the Christmas tree this year.


This is called the denial of the antecedent.


"If macro evolution is true, then evidence X.

If macro evolution is not true, therefore NOT evidence X.

(Denial of the antecedent fallacy.)


I acknowledge that there is evidence you might expect to exist if evolution were true, certainly if mammals and reptiles evolved from a common ancestor or an amphibian, we might expect homological bones. I agree that the evidence seems to be similar to the evidence expected from a common design. It may well be that those bone-patterns simply are the only ones that work, or maybe they are the only ones that work best (the most superior design).


If God is omniscient, which He is, then every design will be the design of best choice. This logically follows and is expected from an all-wise God, therefore we should not expect a rabbit to NOT have homological bones, if that design is the best design.


The real question is this; "if there is evidence for evolution, is it the type we would expect, and is it the amount we would expect?"


It certainly is only the amount we would actually expect had evolution not occurred. In the same way we would only expect a handful of lottery winners out of millions of attempts, when we have millions of species on earth, we would also expect a handful to look like they evolved. But if we did evolve we would expect generally to see transitionals in abundance, of every type/body plan."


We could go back and forth with evidence that supports our view and I can counter it with how it supports my view and so on. Nothing in reality contradicts our Genesis. The contradictions exist when mans interpretations trumps God's word. Make God be truth and every man a liar (Romans 3:4). The bible is given by inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16) and supports a rational worldview. We can be certain the bible was inspired by God because it's prophecy and fulfillment; proving the ability for the writer to of had knowledge outside their time domain—the writers claimed this knowledge came from God. God wrote the bible in that sense. The bible displays arcane knowledge that no one else knew at the time. Job 38:31 talks about the Pleiades being bound together. Most astronomers even today are ignorant to the fact that the Pleiades are gravitationally bound, yet the writer of Job must of known? Job was quoting God. Etched in stone God declares in Exodus 20:11

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

It is very clear that God makes it clear the earth was created in six literal days!

Again in

Our creator left us with a book and told us it was inspired by Him and breathed by Him. Why are we not defaulting this view until proven otherwise? Do you not understand that the same pile of evidence used to support evolution can interpreted as effect from Noah's flood, creation, biblical events.



For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Matthew 13:22



I never used to think it was wise to try and convince another Christian to drop evolution/old earth for creationism, young earth, flood, etc until I understood this verse more intimately. I believe that delusion began in the garden of Eden when satan told Eden "Ye shall be as God's." That has always been the deception, he has played off our pride and made us masters of our world. I believe that evolution will be a mechanism in the end times delusion that tricks the world into accepting the antichrist instead of Jesus as end times prophecy has foretold. Additionally, as a personal testimony, the bible has come to make more sense the more I understand it better as I learn more and more about what the bible says is true about our reality.



This was a very brief intro into the theory of creation but I encourage everyone to look deeper as I have given you very information. Please feel free to ask specific questions!


Curious, what caused you to change from a firm atheist to a Christian?
 
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The Stamp

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Curious, what caused you to change from a firm atheist to a Christian?
A better question might be, what made you go from being a sceptic to being irrational? because believing something just because you want it to be true is (and I assume you will agree with me here) being completely irrational, I have never had anything happen for me just because I wanted it to happen for me.
 
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CrystalDragon

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A better question might be, what made you go from being a sceptic to being irrational? because believing something just because you want it to be true is (and I assume you will agree with me here) being completely irrational, I have never had anything happen for me just because I wanted it to happen for me.


Good point, okay... what made you go from being a skeptic to being irrational? Though I assume you came to God for some other reason than "because you want it to be true", or is that the main reason?
 
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Speedwell

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Curious, what caused you to change from a firm atheist to a Christian?
Perhaps he met someone who brought him to Christ but also sold him on the bogus notion that the literal inerrancy of Genesis has to go with it.
 
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Astrophile

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Most astronomers even today are ignorant of the fact that the Pleiades are gravitationally bound, yet the writer of Job must have known?

How do you know this? How many astronomers have you discussed the matter with? In nearly 60 years of studying the subject I've never read an astronomy book that denied that the Pleiades are gravitationally bound; on the contrary, the Pleiades are almost always presented as the classical example of a bound star cluster.

Also, I doubt whether Job, or any of his contemporaries, knew about universal gravitation. They probably looked at the sky and saw this beautiful cluster of stars, without knowing why the stars are clustered together.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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The OP was very hard to read on my phone. Perhaps I'll try later again today when I'm on my computer. That said, there is no theory of creation. Creation is a theological proposition, not a scientific one. The attempt to cloak it in a lab coat is Creationism and that has been thoroughly falsified over the last 200 years.
 
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MrNoodle

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I mean no disrespect by this post, but I saw the extinct dodo bird in the image. Not a duck or a rabbit. I wonder if that interpretation is proof to my opinion and acceptance of evolution, as I always accepted creationism as more of the beginning of the big bang process rather than the actual process of *poof* here's a bird, *poof* here's a fish concept of populating the Earth. Some representations of creationism sound more like Harry Potter Magic than the beginning of all life as we know it. We can breed animals and over time change them which is proof to evolution. But to me, its impossible to know or define creationism. (which is where faith in God comes from) This is just my opinion, and not meant to offend anyone.
 
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pitabread

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What the evolutionary community refers to as a family roughy equates to a 'kind' created by God.

So chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans, and humans are all the same 'kind'. Got it.
 
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PsychoSarah

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The Flood of Noah occurred 4400 years ago based in given biblical chronology. In Genesis, we learn that God allows the animals to adapt to their environment but only according to their kind. We have observed rapid change in animals in short periods of time when introduced to a new environment—keep in mind that after the flood the animals would be under a lot of stress provoking quicker adaptation to their new land; this concept has been observed.
Then why do cheetahs lack genetic diversity to such an extent that any two random ones can donate tissue to each other, but pandas (a more severely threatened species with slower reproduction) can't and are more genetically diverse?

In terms of explanation of biodiversity on the planet, I don't see any issues. Breakdown: Animals got off ark > repopulated locally > animals scattered upon the earth (possibly aided post Babel and the scattering of the people) > animals, under high stress, made changes in their genome to adapt to their environment > over 1000's of years we have the biodiversity we see today.
The issue is that life on this planet is more genetically diverse than you think it is, and mutation doesn't occur fast enough to happen in that short of time. Panda bears and polar bears are not genetically the same aside from what genes get expressed. Horses and donkeys don't even have the same number of chromosomes as each other, so your proposal couldn't possibly apply.




If God is omniscient, which He is, then every design will be the design of best choice. This logically follows and is expected from an all-wise God, therefore we should not expect a rabbit to NOT have homological bones, if that design is the best design.
-_- but humans have an inferior eye "design" to squid. It causes us to have tons of unnecessary blind spots.


The real question is this; "if there is evidence for evolution, is it the type we would expect, and is it the amount we would expect?"


But if we did evolve we would expect generally to see transitionals in abundance, of every type/body plan."
1. Every generation is transitional
2. We have transitional representations for all stages of eye development alive today, thanks to it evolving independently so many times. However, evolution is generally very slow and gradual, hence why we refer to the fossil record for most of the interesting developments.

BTW, based on how you define "kinds", humans and orangutans would be the same "kind"
 
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JackRT

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How does an old story become a theory? is 'How the leopard got it's spots' story by Rudyard Kipling a theory?
Should stories be considered to be true if you want them to be true or if you believe them to be true? or is something more needed?

Do you mean like Genesis 30:37 Then Jacob took fresh sticks of poplar and almond and plane trees, and peeled white streaks in them, exposing the white of the sticks. 38 He set the sticks that he had peeled in front of the flocks in the troughs, that is, the watering places, where the flocks came to drink. And since they bred when they came to drink, 39 the flocks bred in front of the sticks and so the flocks brought forth striped, speckled, and spotted. 40 And Jacob separated the lambs and set the faces of the flocks toward the striped and all the black in the flock of Laban. He put his own droves apart and did not put them with Laban's flock. 41 Whenever the stronger of the flock were breeding, Jacob would lay the sticks in the troughs before the eyes of the flock, that they might breed among the sticks, 42 but for the feebler of the flock he would not lay them there. So the feebler would be Laban's, and the stronger Jacob's. 43 Thus the man increased greatly and had large flocks, female servants and male servants, and camels and donkeys.

Much as we might find this story charming, it fails as a theory because genetics simply does not work that way. If you don't believe that, try repeating the experiment.
 
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JackRT

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This was a very brief intro into the theory of creation but I encourage everyone to look deeper as I have given you very information. Please feel free to ask specific questions!

Since you are dealing with models, you do realize that there is a biblical model of the universe? Any model of creation must fit into biblical cosmology.

Modern or ancient, every culture operates within a certain cosmology or understanding of the universe. This cosmology sets the context of how a people understand their world and their place in it. With very few exceptions our modern day cosmology is shaped by the scientific discoveries of the past 500 years. Some of these discoveries have greatly upset religious understandings and it sometimes takes centuries to reconcile the differences. However, since we live in a culture that has been greatly shaped by the bible and Christian beliefs, it is worthwhile to ask about biblical cosmology.

The biblical understanding of the universe is much the same as that of the surrounding cultures in the ancient Middle East at the time when it was written. Unfortunately, nowhere does the bible attempt to present a comprehensive cosmology, so we are forced to rely upon individual passages and to attempt to understand them in the light of their culture and their history. To begin with, biblical cosmology can be characterized as a three-tiered universe. This strange phrase needs some explanation to make the concept clearer.

First, the surface of the earth is circular and flat except for geographical features like hills and valleys. This of course was the belief of the Sumerians. To these people it was theoretically possible to go high enough to see the entire earth, or to envision a tree tall enough that it could be seen from everywhere on the earth's surface, or even to build a tower to reach the sky. The sky was thought of as a solid bowl, called the firmament, that was upended over the circular earth to enclose a volume in the shape of a hemisphere. I should add that there are some bible verses that speak of the four corners of the earth. This was the view of the Babylonians. This would make the firmament look more like a tent than a bowl. The lights of the sky (sun, moon, planets and stars) were inside the firmament and were very much smaller than we presently understand. In fact they were very much smaller than the earth itself. The mechanism by which these celestial objects moved about is not really explained. The noncanonical Book of Enoch (mentioned in the bible as authoritive and part of the canon of Ethiopian Christians) speaks of gates in the east and west for the sun and the moon to enter and leave. Enoch also suggests that their movements are caused by winds.

What I have just described is the middle tier of the three. Above the firmament are waters. This region is described as heaven, the abode of God and the angels. There were also gates in the firmament to permit water to enter as rain. Below the earth are also waters. This region is described as sheol or hell. There were also gates in the earth to permit water to spring up from below. This three level universe is variously described as either hung on nothing or supported by pillars. Storehouses are also envisioned in heaven for the snow and hail.

How should a of Christian today react to this biblical cosmology? The vast majority of what might be described as 'mainline' Christians are actually quite comfortable with this seeming dichotomy. They recognize that the bible is the product of a relatively unsophisticated people with an entirely pre-scientific understanding of nature, who used poetic or metaphorical language to convey their spiritual understandings. On the other hand there is the minority point of view of those Christians who regard the bible to be inerrant and to be understood literally. This group has been forced into extreme apologetic efforts in order to reconcile the bible with modern scientific understandings.

Speaking personally, I find these apologetic attempts to be rather inventive and very strained. I believe that if the scripture writers and early target audience were to read these apologetics, they would find them extremely puzzling and entirely foreign. This is not to say that they were not intelligent people or not keen observers of nature but rather that that they lacked the intellectual basis to form scientific hypotheses and even the instrumentation to gather accurate data --- all that came about some 2,000 years later.

Isaiah 11:12And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

Revelation 7:1And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

Jeremiah 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

Daniel 4:11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

Psalm 104:5 "He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved."(NIV)

Psalm 93:1"The LORD reigns, he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed in majesty and is armed with strength. The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved." (NIV)

Psalm 96:10 "Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns." The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity." (NIV)

Ecclesiastes 1:5 "The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises." (NIV)

Isaiah 40:22 "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in." (NIV)

Job 9:6 He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. (NIV)

Job 26:11 The pillars of the heavens quake, aghast at his rebuke. (NIV)

Job 38:22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail," (NIV)

Amos 9:6 The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens and has founded His VAULTED DOME over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out on the face of the earth, The LORD is His name. (NASB)

The biblical flat earth cosmology persisted into New Testament times. However by the mid second century Christianity had largely lost its Jewish roots and understandings and had become a gentile Greek speaking movement. Of course the Greeks knew that the earth was a sphere thanks to Eratosthenes who actually was able to calculate the circumference around 240 BC. This knowledge gradually percolated into Jewish and Christian thought especially after Ptolemy introduced his cosmology in the mid second century. The earth became the center of the universe with the moon and then the sun and then the planets, with complicated epicycles, and then the “fixed” stars all in orbit around it. This was the cosmology accepted by Christianity until the revolution of Copernicus, Kepler. Galileo and Newton. This was resisted by Christianity largely on the basis that the earth was not the center of God’s creation. In a relatively short time even this scientific insight was not only accepted but accepted to the extent that the biblical cosmology of a flat earth was rejected. The flat earth was not only rejected but ridiculous arguments were even invented to suggest that the bible was not even suggesting a flat earth at all. Such, all too often, is the way some Christians react to new understandings and insights.

Even having said all this, the belief in a flat earth persisted for a very long time, even in educated circles, as is evidenced in this comment by Ferdinand Magellan, the first person to circumnavigate the globe: “The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church.” It took time but the modern cosmology took root in society at large, so much so that some Christians even return to the bible and attempt to reinterpret it in such a way as to “prove” that it was speaking of a spherical earth orbiting the sun all along.
 
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