Disciples of Christ - The first non denominational church?

[RileyG]

Our local UCC church has a close relationship in ministry with the local DoC. So I've learned more about them. The UCC and DoC have intercommunion agreements. Also, the UCC has congregations that were historically part of the Restorationist movement.

interesting, i was not aware of that

 

[9Rock9]

I really like this explanation. So I want to make it clear I am, for lack of a better term, playing a bit of devils advocate here, but I would like to continue the discussion.

You say that denominational structures provide no real safeguard. I don't see how they wouldn't. You bring up the LCMS. My child goes to an LCMS elementary school. I am methodist not lutheran. The LCMS may differ from congregation to congregation....but the knowledge that they broke off from the "main" U.S. lutheran denomination gave me confidence to know that I could enroll my son there. I may have to explain some theological differences I have when he gets older, but that is no big deal. I can make a decision that generally this is a church I am ok letting my child attend for school.

With non denominational I have seen many go down the prosperity gospel route. I have see others support pastors who have been unfaithful. I have seen others become mega churches and watched the gospel slowly turn into how much money they can bring in. Now I completely understand that this is in no way representative of all non denominational churches. It is a bit of an anecdote. At the same time I see how a denominational structure gives me more confidence that a church has not lost its way.

Well, denominations are also susceptible to theological liberalism. If the guy at the top buys into heretical ideas, then there is nothing stopping it from trickling down to the local churches.

Oh, and you have to go along with it or the denomination will fire your ministers, confiscate property and close down the building. You're only options are: A) Submit to the denomination B) Find and join a different denomination C) Start your own church

So, it just encourages more schisms.

At least with a Congregationalist model, the power of the higher-ups is limited in that they cannot force the local churches to do anything. So if a church does go liberal, you'll likely find one that has remained conservative.

 

[actionsub]

I really like this explanation. So I want to make it clear I am, for lack of a better term, playing a bit of devils advocate here, but I would like to continue the discussion.

You say that denominational structures provide no real safeguard. I don't see how they wouldn't. You bring up the LCMS. My child goes to an LCMS elementary school. I am methodist not lutheran. The LCMS may differ from congregation to congregation....but the knowledge that they broke off from the "main" U.S. lutheran denomination gave me confidence to know that I could enroll my son there. I may have to explain some theological differences I have when he gets older, but that is no big deal. I can make a decision that generally this is a church I am ok letting my child attend for school.

With non denominational I have seen many go down the prosperity gospel route. I have see others support pastors who have been unfaithful. I have seen others become mega churches and watched the gospel slowly turn into how much money they can bring in. Now I completely understand that this is in no way representative of all non denominational churches. It is a bit of an anecdote. At the same time I see how a denominational structure gives me more confidence that a church has not lost its way.

Quite the opposite. Part of the larger Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) broke off from the LCMS over a variety of issues, including women's ordination and a trend toward liberalism that was rejected by the LCMS. (Google "Seminex" for a more detailed explanation.)
ELCA is the largest Lutheran denom in the US, though it was a merger of three smaller denominations in the 1970s along with those who left during the Seminex schism.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

This is probably going to be pretty long, so I apologize to anyone that does not want to read it.

I want to start off by clarifying that I do know that Disciples of Christ is an actual denomination. I was baptized in the church, but have not been associated with it for 25 years or so. But I have been reading more about the Restoration and Stone Campbell Movement which came along pretty much with the "2nd Great Awakening". A few things stuck me as odd about the movement (to be fair I have not done a deep dive into the literature yet..so please correct anything you think I am getting wrong). The first is that it gave birth to some of the more fringe Christian groups. Around this time you have the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormon churches. They do have the basic belief that Jesus is the son of God, died on the cross for our sins, rose from the dead 3 days later, and through faith in him we have eternal life. They are also non trinitarian and believe in additional revelation which I'd say causes a lot of problems.

But the whole idea of the Disciples of Christ was that it boiled everything down in Christianity to a certain few points which I referenced earlier. I wont talk about the Church of Christ split right now, but I think the idea that the one true Church is just a community a believers... is a really nice idea.

So to bring this back into the idea of Non-Denominational..which is really the point in this part of the forum. The Disciples of Christ has pretty much abandoned the idea of those few defining Characteristics I mentioned earlier. You don't even to have to believe that the death and resurrection of Jesus happened. You don't have to believe in any real truth to the Bible. You still get be called a Christian.

However, it seems to me that this is the route a lot of non denominational churches might start going down. Already you have prosperity gospel churches, non stop dispensationalist end time churches, along with churches that believe in no literal biblical truth. There seems to believe no belief requirement outside of the basics...and those might be optional.

So can denominations provide that stability? Maybe it is a book or rules of discipline like in the Methodist or Presbyterian churches or adherence to the Nicene Creed...(I wish Methodist were a bit more creedal). Maybe the argument against it would be that both of those denominations split, along with Lutherans and Anglicans...but I would think those splits would represent that there was some fundamental theological problem that caused the churches to leave, and I figure that is a good thing.

So basically, there seems to be no way of making sure a non denominational church does not go down the Disciples of Christ path. Because without any rules of discipline or creedal truths, there is no point where breaking away makes since because you are accepting of everyone into the church. And I realize that a lot of these churches are currently theologically conservative but they may not stay that way. I figure the best argument against my fear is the Baptists since so many non denominational churches are basically Baptists who like dancing. The SBC has done a pretty good job of keeping everyone in line without really being a denomination.

Anyways, the whole point of this is not to argue that non denominational churches are bad or evil or good or wonderful. I don't think that. But just to get your thoughts on my way too long post about my thoughts.

They were part of the Radical Reformation that cause many false teachings to apear.

 

[FireDragon76]

Quite the opposite. Part of the larger Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) broke off from the LCMS over a variety of issues, including women's ordination and a trend toward liberalism that was rejected by the LCMS. (Google "Seminex" for a more detailed explanation.)
ELCA is the largest Lutheran denom in the US, though it was a merger of three smaller denominations in the 1970s along with those who left during the Seminex schism.

The LCMS and ELCA are separate churches, and have different histories in the United States. They have never been in full fellowship, though at one time, they had closer ties.

 

[actionsub]

The LCMS and ELCA are separate churches, and have different histories in the United States. They have never been in full fellowship, though at one time, they had closer ties.

The small Seminex faction, IIRC, was absorbed into the AELC, one of the three historical bodies that came together to form the ELCA. It was roughly the equivalent of one congregation parting with their denomination and joining another one.
The differences between LCMS and ELCA are largely ethnic in history. The LCMS was formed by German immigrants wanting to practice pure Lutheranism as opposed to the Evangelical/Reformed mix that was forced by the Prussian Union. (A latter group of German adherents to the E&R churches would also emigrate to Missouri; they were eventually absorbed into what is now the United Church of Christ.)
The churches that formed the ELCA, on the other hand, have a Scandinavian heritage and emerged in the northern midwest where Norwegians and Swedes settled.

 

[FireDragon76]

The small Seminex faction, IIRC, was absorbed into the AELC, one of the three historical bodies that came together to form the ELCA. It was roughly the equivalent of one congregation parting with their denomination and joining another one.
The differences between LCMS and ELCA are largely ethnic in history. The LCMS was formed by German immigrants wanting to practice pure Lutheranism as opposed to the Evangelical/Reformed mix that was forced by the Prussian Union. (A latter group of German adherents to the E&R churches would also emigrate to Missouri; they were eventually absorbed into what is now the United Church of Christ.)
The churches that formed the ELCA, on the other hand, have a Scandinavian heritage and emerged in the northern midwest where Norwegians and Swedes settled.

Seminex contributed a small amount of people to the ELCA overall.

There were alot of folks at my old church that were from Pennsylvania originally.

There are alot of older German immigrant groups, most that came before the Revolutionary War, in Pennsylvania that were part of what became the ELCA. Gettysburg Seminary, for instance, is still part of the denomination and still a functioning seminary.

 

[RileyG]

The small Seminex faction, IIRC, was absorbed into the AELC, one of the three historical bodies that came together to form the ELCA. It was roughly the equivalent of one congregation parting with their denomination and joining another one.
The differences between LCMS and ELCA are largely ethnic in history. The LCMS was formed by German immigrants wanting to practice pure Lutheranism as opposed to the Evangelical/Reformed mix that was forced by the Prussian Union. (A latter group of German adherents to the E&R churches would also emigrate to Missouri; they were eventually absorbed into what is now the United Church of Christ.)
The churches that formed the ELCA, on the other hand, have a Scandinavian heritage and emerged in the northern midwest where Norwegians and Swedes settled.

Interesting. My hometown was largely German ELCA Lutheran. Not many Scandinavians there.

 

[actionsub]

Interesting. My hometown was largely German ELCA Lutheran. Not many Scandinavians there.

That is interesting. Granted, I'm speaking in broad generalities here, so something like that is not unusual. The ELCA churches here are largely German due to being close to St. Louis, too.

 

[AJHnh]

Hi,

I also believe that one allows for woman Pastors and the other does not.

The small Seminex faction, IIRC, was absorbed into the AELC, one of the three historical bodies that came together to form the ELCA. It was roughly the equivalent of one congregation parting with their denomination and joining another one.
The differences between LCMS and ELCA are largely ethnic in history. The LCMS was formed by German immigrants wanting to practice pure Lutheranism as opposed to the Evangelical/Reformed mix that was forced by the Prussian Union. (A latter group of German adherents to the E&R churches would also emigrate to Missouri; they were eventually absorbed into what is now the United Church of Christ.)
The churches that formed the ELCA, on the other hand, have a Scandinavian heritage and emerged in the northern midwest where Norwegians and Swedes settled.

v