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Atheism and the problem of existence

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Nihilist Virus

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The problem of existence is simply the question, "Why does something exist, instead of nothing?"

Most religions pose God (or gods) as a solution to this problem. But to claim that a deity created the universe is an incoherent notion. Allow me to explain:

Einstein proved that space and time are not abstractions, but rather are real, physical, malleable things. It is also agreed upon, whether you believe in the Big Bang or the creation event, that there was a t=0 event where time was first set into motion. I will not entertain the notion that these points are in question.

Now, causality is a shorthand way of saying, "The rules of the universe act on a system to take it from one state to another over a duration of time." Here, a system is a region of space and time, and all of the particles of matter, energy, and otherwise existing things therein; a state is a specific arrangement of matter, energy, and etcetera within a system. So, nothing actually happens "because of causality" but rather because of laws acting on matter in a system of space-time. I think we can all agree that this is what causality is observed to be. If you want to propose some other form of causality, you must first explain explicitly what exactly it is, and then secondly you must demonstrate that it actually exists.

It is now quite apparent that causality requires space and time to already exist in order for it to act. In fact, there is no alternate form of causality that one can pose in which this is not the case. Therefore, since there is no "before" the t=0 event, which is to say that "before" this event there was no clock that could tick and no ruler that could measure, it follows that the t=0 event necessarily occurred without a cause. Therefore it is incoherent to say that a deity provided the "first cause" because such a first cause was not necessary or even possible. If you want to believe in a deity that can perform logically absurd tasks, such as creating a one-ended line, then there is no reason to exclude the possibility that logically absurd things can occur without a deity (if you are not bounded by logic, then possibility is not bounded).

This explanation is quite unavoidable. Regrettably, this does not solve the problem of existence, nor does it explain how or why the t=0 event actually occurred. These are problems that have plagued mankind for all of our existence, and we simply have not solved them yet (and these things might be unsolvable with unlimited technology). But the fact of the matter is that this explanation is correct.
 

FutureAndAHope

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It is my opinion that time had to be created. What existed before t = 0. It is possible for God to create a new world where time starts at t = 0. Yet He himself may well exist in a world where time exists at another value. The bible says it this way, IN Jesus (God) all things have their consistency, are held together by His power. Within God's own world he could generate new worlds, exploding them into existence. He using the matter that exists in His world could spawn new worlds for His pleasure. The truth is there has always been something. Is it a hollow empty void, it can't be, nothing can not spawn something. It is beyond our human ability to understand. We just have to make a choice, do we believe in God, or do we believe it was 100% natural occurrence. It is neither science one way or the other, both ideas are logical. It come down to a matter of choice and experience.
 
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fatboys

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It is my opinion that time had to be created. What existed before t = 0. It is possible for God to create a new world where time starts at t = 0. Yet He himself may well exist in a world where time exists at another value. The bible says it this way, IN Jesus (God) all things have their consistency, are held together by His power. Within God's own world he could generate new worlds, exploding them into existence. He using the matter that exists in His world could spawn new worlds for His pleasure. The truth is there has always been something. Is it a hollow empty void, it can't be, nothing can not spawn something. It is beyond our human ability to understand. We just have to make a choice, do we believe in God, or do we believe it was 100% natural occurrence. It is neither science one way or the other, both ideas are logical. It come down to a matter of choice and experience.
I understand what your saying and it makes sense
 
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fatboys

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Einstein was a great mind and man. But he also believed in a higher power. But even if he didn't he was just a man with limited knowledge. If you want to believe that man was a accident that is fine. But the science for it does not make sense to me. The simple going to complex goes against nature. Nature tends to go back to the simple.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Einstein proved that space and time are not abstractions, but rather are real, physical, malleable things.

I don't believe that's correct. In Relativity and the Problem of Space, he writes that...

"On the basis of the general theory of relativity, on the other hand, space as opposed to "what fills space", which is dependent on the co-ordinates, has no separate existence.

...

Space-time does not claim existence on its own, but only as a structural quality of the field."

(my emphasis)

I don't see that this affects your argument at all, though.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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As an example of God's inexplicable power:

Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”
And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. ~Hebrews 4:3

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. ~Revelation 13:8

We learn in Scripture that nothing is impossible with God.
 
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toLiJC

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The problem of existence is simply the question, "Why does something exist, instead of nothing?"

Most religions pose God (or gods) as a solution to this problem. But to claim that a deity created the universe is an incoherent notion. Allow me to explain:

Einstein proved that space and time are not abstractions, but rather are real, physical, malleable things. It is also agreed upon, whether you believe in the Big Bang or the creation event, that there was a t=0 event where time was first set into motion. I will not entertain the notion that these points are in question.

Now, causality is a shorthand way of saying, "The rules of the universe act on a system to take it from one state to another over a duration of time." Here, a system is a region of space and time, and all of the particles of matter, energy, and otherwise existing things therein; a state is a specific arrangement of matter, energy, and etcetera within a system. So, nothing actually happens "because of causality" but rather because of laws acting on matter in a system of space-time. I think we can all agree that this is what causality is observed to be. If you want to propose some other form of causality, you must first explain explicitly what exactly it is, and then secondly you must demonstrate that it actually exists.

It is now quite apparent that causality requires space and time to already exist in order for it to act. In fact, there is no alternate form of causality that one can pose in which this is not the case. Therefore, since there is no "before" the t=0 event, which is to say that "before" this event there was no clock that could tick and no ruler that could measure, it follows that the t=0 event necessarily occurred without a cause. Therefore it is incoherent to say that a deity provided the "first cause" because such a first cause was not necessary or even possible. If you want to believe in a deity that can perform logically absurd tasks, such as creating a one-ended line, then there is no reason to exclude the possibility that logically absurd things can occur without a deity (if you are not bounded by logic, then possibility is not bounded).

This explanation is quite unavoidable. Regrettably, this does not solve the problem of existence, nor does it explain how or why the t=0 event actually occurred. These are problems that have plagued mankind for all of our existence, and we simply have not solved them yet (and these things might be unsolvable with unlimited technology). But the fact of the matter is that this explanation is correct.

there are infinitely existing things in the universe, i.e. constant things that never stop to exist in one or another form, even for a while, and these things are: God, the universe as an infinitely existing space, the souls, the time as constantly running, the uncaused/primordial universal substance, and unfortunately the "darkness" - all these things are uncaused and infinitely existing, and the souls need life, because the soul is the entity of life, and what is soul without life?!

Blessings
 
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drstevej

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The problem of existence is simply the question, "Why does something exist, instead of nothing?"

Most religions pose God (or gods) as a solution to this problem. But to claim that a deity created the universe is an incoherent notion. Allow me to explain:

Einstein proved that space and time are not abstractions, but rather are real, physical, malleable things. It is also agreed upon, whether you believe in the Big Bang or the creation event, that there was a t=0 event where time was first set into motion. I will not entertain the notion that these points are in question.

Now, causality is a shorthand way of saying, "The rules of the universe act on a system to take it from one state to another over a duration of time." Here, a system is a region of space and time, and all of the particles of matter, energy, and otherwise existing things therein; a state is a specific arrangement of matter, energy, and etcetera within a system. So, nothing actually happens "because of causality" but rather because of laws acting on matter in a system of space-time. I think we can all agree that this is what causality is observed to be. If you want to propose some other form of causality, you must first explain explicitly what exactly it is, and then secondly you must demonstrate that it actually exists.

It is now quite apparent that causality requires space and time to already exist in order for it to act. In fact, there is no alternate form of causality that one can pose in which this is not the case. Therefore, since there is no "before" the t=0 event, which is to say that "before" this event there was no clock that could tick and no ruler that could measure, it follows that the t=0 event necessarily occurred without a cause. Therefore it is incoherent to say that a deity provided the "first cause" because such a first cause was not necessary or even possible. If you want to believe in a deity that can perform logically absurd tasks, such as creating a one-ended line, then there is no reason to exclude the possibility that logically absurd things can occur without a deity (if you are not bounded by logic, then possibility is not bounded).

This explanation is quite unavoidable. Regrettably, this does not solve the problem of existence, nor does it explain how or why the t=0 event actually occurred. These are problems that have plagued mankind for all of our existence, and we simply have not solved them yet (and these things might be unsolvable with unlimited technology). But the fact of the matter is that this explanation is correct.


How is atheism a religion? This thread is out of place.
 
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Wgw

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The problem of existence is simply the question, "Why does something exist, instead of nothing?"

Most religions pose God (or gods) as a solution to this problem. But to claim that a deity created the universe is an incoherent notion. Allow me to explain:

Einstein proved that space and time are not abstractions, but rather are real, physical, malleable things. It is also agreed upon, whether you believe in the Big Bang or the creation event, that there was a t=0 event where time was first set into motion. I will not entertain the notion that these points are in question.

Now, causality is a shorthand way of saying, "The rules of the universe act on a system to take it from one state to another over a duration of time." Here, a system is a region of space and time, and all of the particles of matter, energy, and otherwise existing things therein; a state is a specific arrangement of matter, energy, and etcetera within a system. So, nothing actually happens "because of causality" but rather because of laws acting on matter in a system of space-time. I think we can all agree that this is what causality is observed to be. If you want to propose some other form of causality, you must first explain explicitly what exactly it is, and then secondly you must demonstrate that it actually exists.

It is now quite apparent that causality requires space and time to already exist in order for it to act. In fact, there is no alternate form of causality that one can pose in which this is not the case. Therefore, since there is no "before" the t=0 event, which is to say that "before" this event there was no clock that could tick and no ruler that could measure, it follows that the t=0 event necessarily occurred without a cause. Therefore it is incoherent to say that a deity provided the "first cause" because such a first cause was not necessary or even possible. If you want to believe in a deity that can perform logically absurd tasks, such as creating a one-ended line, then there is no reason to exclude the possibility that logically absurd things can occur without a deity (if you are not bounded by logic, then possibility is not bounded).

This explanation is quite unavoidable. Regrettably, this does not solve the problem of existence, nor does it explain how or why the t=0 event actually occurred. These are problems that have plagued mankind for all of our existence, and we simply have not solved them yet (and these things might be unsolvable with unlimited technology). But the fact of the matter is that this explanation is correct.

The problem here is that you propose that a theistic view of the "First Cause" would have to be a strictly temporal effect, an event in time. This would actually require a dualist theology, in that it would require that God be bound by the rules of causality. In fact, the creation of time should be understood, properly, as entsiling the creation of causality; therefore from a monotheist perspective this event must be understood as the extra-temporal event of an immutable being not bound by time or space; indeed this event would have the effect of creating space and time, which are by their nature higher order creations which facilitate the instantiarion of other created entities.

This thread does highlight the shortcomings of anthropomorphology, in that obviously a human understanding if these events tends to be misleading. In Orthodox theology, humans are understood as icons of God; our theology is incarnational; at the same time we are very careful to avoid anthropomorphology, or even to suggest that the divine essence is comprehensible. In fact, St. Gregory Nazianzus warns us that attempting to comprehend the divine essence can lead to madness.

I strongly suggest the works of apophatic theology beginning with St. (Psuedo) Dionysius the Aereopagite.
 
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Wgw

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How is atheism a religion? This thread is out of place.

Fr,

I myself think there may be some merit in the idea of regarding atheism as a class of belief systems in the same way that we regard theism and non-theism (Buddhism, Jainism) as a class; one can point to some forms of atheism which are highly liturgical (some Unitarians and humanist associations), some of which (Bolshevism) feature relics, iconography, et cetera.

The Anglican vicar Fr. Peter Owen Jones, in his rather excellent series "Around the World in 80 Faiths," did go so far as to visit a Russian atheist debating society, which he seemed to enjoy a bit oess I should note than visiting the Russian Orthodox Church.

That being said, you might well have a point in that to a certain extent atheism might tend to engage non-Christian religions in this subforum in a very general way, and non-Christian members might respond from their POV in a manner that may cause confusion when their theological approach is rather different from the Nicene position of Christian Forums. I am a proponent of the idea that Nicene theology, when properly expounded, can address the sort of questions raised by Nihilist, so perhaps this might well be a topic for the new apologetics forum?
 
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