Are Presbyterians liturgical?

[SF Edward]

I'm curious, what would you expect from a normal Presbyterian service? I know a pcusa and a united Methodist church share a church with one minister, (in my town). Is that unusual? Thanks!!!

 

[SF Edward]

So as someone who was baptized as an infant Methodist and confirmed in what is now the PCUSA church, no it is not. Let me explain, many mainline Presbyterians will attend a United Methodist or Methodist Church in their town if a Presbyterian is not around, perhaps also an Anglican or Lutheran and then later a mainline Baptist. But Methodist are similar in Worship, Hymns and liturgy. Most PCUSA churches are not heavily Calvinistic nor strong belief in predestination. There are other churches like yours too. The ones that are totally polar opposites would be like a say reformed Presbyterian or offshoot Presbyterians and say a Methodist or Wesleyan or Holiness. But a mainline Presbyterian and a Methodist like UMC are almost unrecognizable in difference. Let me also add this, one Methodist Church in town just received 30 discontent Presbyterians that started going to the Methodist. My mothers former Presbyterian church in the 1980s lost 300 people from the church and 99% of them went to the Methodist Church. I have also heard stories vice-versa. So go figure. Hope that helps. I personally think the Methodist church is a bit more relaxed on certain things and many times not as formal and traditional, do not recite the creeds as much as Presbyterians and are not a confessional church like the Presbyterians, Lutherans and Anglicans. The Presbyterians broke from the Roman Catholic Church as did the Lutherans and Anglicans. The Methodists was a movement/ group within the Anglican movement that broke from the Anglican church.

 

[Bob Crowley]

As a former Presbyterian, now Catholic (RileyG is Catholic I'm pretty sure), my own experience of the Presbyrerian Church was that it was not as "liturgical" as the Catholic Church.

In this context the word "liturgical" needs to be a bit more clearly defined. Secondly I didn't study much Presbyterian theology or liturgy. I was a regular participant in the services, but picked it up on the run so to speak as I was an adult convert to Christianity (aged 28). Although in fairness I've picked up a lot of Catholic stuff "on the run" as well as I didn't become Catholic till I was in my 40's.

Mind you I learnt a lot from my old Presbyterian pastor and he could preach the pants off most Catholic priests I've heard. He had a gift for public speaking. He's still the most formidable religious figure I've met.

It depends what you mean by "liturgical". Order of service? Definition of sacraments? Statement of faith or creeds? The music? Quality of sermons or homilies? The definition of comunion and the elements?

There was a fixed order of service - opening hymn (preceded by more music in the evening service aimed a bit more at young people), Bible reading, homily, collection and so on. The only prayer I can remember reciting on occasion was the Lord's prayer ("Our Father" to Catholics); there was no statement of faith (Creed), no confession of sins (Confiteor), and we only had communion once every 3 months, although it was a solemn affair.

There were prayers but they weren't the highly organised affair that the Catholics have. There was usually only one Bible readng unlke the three and a half that Catholics have (usually OT, responsive psalm - the half - NT letter and the Gospel). But they knew the Bible better than most Catholics.

There was a liturgy but not as full as that of the Catholic Church.

PS - we had a gym under the church. I didn't have a church tracksuit, but it had the words on the back "... strong in the Lord...". That was actually quite true for some of the young blokes!

 

[Pioneer3mm]

the Methodist church is a bit more relaxed on certain things and many times not as formal and traditional, do not recite the creeds as much as Presbyterians

Good point.
---
I was involved in UMC (Methodist) & PCUSA..
- 1970's & 1980's.

 

[SF Edward]

As a former Presbyterian, now Catholic (RileyG is Catholic I'm pretty sure), my own experience of the Presbyrerian Church was that it was not as "liturgical" as the Catholic Church.

In this context the word "liturgical" needs to be a bit more clearly defined. Secondly I didn't study much Presbyterian theology or liturgy. I was a regular participant in the services, but picked it up on the run so to speak as I was an adult convert to Christianity (aged 28). Although in fairness I've picked up a lot of Catholic stuff "on the run" as well as I didn't become Catholic till I was in my 40's.

Mind you I learnt a lot from my old Presbyterian pastor and he could preach the pants off most Catholic priests I've heard. He had a gift for public speaking. He's still the most formidable religious figure I've met.

It depends what you mean by "liturgical". Order of service? Definition of sacraments? Statement of faith or creeds? The music? Quality of sermons or homilies? The definition of comunion and the elements?

There was a fixed order of service - opening hymn (preceded by more music in the evening service aimed a bit more at young people), Bible reading, homily, collection and so on. The only prayer I can remember reciting on occasion was the Lord's prayer ("Our Father" to Catholics); there was no statement of faith (Creed), no confession of sins (Confiteor), and we only had communion once every 3 months, although it was a solemn affair.

There were prayers but they weren't the highly organised affair that the Catholics have. There was usually only one Bible readng unlke the three and a half that Catholics have (usually OT, responsive psalm - the half - NT letter and the Gospel). But they knew the Bible better than most Catholics.

There was a liturgy but not as full as that of the Catholic Church.

PS - we had a gym under the church. I didn't have a church tracksuit, but it had the words on the back "... strong in the Lord...". That was actually quite true for some of the young blokes!

So hmmm not sure what Presbyterian denomination you were from or a splinter. We most certainly have a liturgy and we have a Book of Common Worship that has been around since time and memorial. Not all churches are required to utilize it, however they are encouraged to use its form. There is most certainly an Order of Worship and this is what it is.

The order of worship

What is the order or shape of worship? What are the primary actions? The Presbyterian Book of Common Worship describes a four-fold shape of

www.presbyterianmission.org

We do recite the Creeds, Have a Confession of Sin with Absolution ( which btw has been around since the time of John Calvin and John Knox)

Liturgy is defined as a Literally, a liturgy is a “work of the people,” or perhaps more helpfully, a “public service.” Therefore, at its most basic, “liturgy” refers to the order of a corporate worship service. All churches from every denominational stripe have an order of worship.Feb 8, 2023

But there are Liturgical Churches and Non Liturgical, they would probably fall into this category from Highest to Least

1. Eastern Orthodox
2. Roman Catholic
3. Church of England / Anglican
4. Lutheran
5 Presbyterian ( mainline) and Reformed
6. United Methodist/ Off shoot Reformed Churches and Presbyterian
7. Congregational
8. Baptist
9. Anabaptist
10/ Pentecostal etc...

 

[SF Edward]

So hmmm not sure what Presbyterian denomination you were from or a splinter. We most certainly have a liturgy and we have a Book of Common Worship that has been around since time and memorial. Not all churches are required to utilize it, however they are encouraged to use its form. There is most certainly an Order of Worship and this is what it is.

The order of worship

What is the order or shape of worship? What are the primary actions? The Presbyterian Book of Common Worship describes a four-fold shape of

www.presbyterianmission.org

We do recite the Creeds, Have a Confession of Sin with Absolution ( which btw has been around since the time of John Calvin and John Knox)

Liturgy is defined as a Literally, a liturgy is a “work of the people,” or perhaps more helpfully, a “public service.” Therefore, at its most basic, “liturgy” refers to the order of a corporate worship service. All churches from every denominational stripe have an order of worship.Feb 8, 2023

But there are Liturgical Churches and Non Liturgical, they would probably fall into this category from Highest to Least

1. Eastern Orthodox
2. Roman Catholic
3. Church of England / Anglican
4. Lutheran
5 Presbyterian ( mainline) and Reformed
6. United Methodist/ Off shoot Reformed Churches and Presbyterian
7. Congregational
8. Baptist
9. Anabaptist
10/ Pentecostal etc...

BTW here is a summary an Order for Worship from 2008
file:///C:/Users/Owner/Downloads/order_of_worship_brochure_dec_2008.pdf

 

[Bob Crowley]

So hmmm not sure what Presbyterian denomination you were from or a splinter.

I'm in Australia but to be honest I'm not sure which "Presbyterian denomination" I was in. I tended to stick to the local church and wasn't interested in the overarching authorities or the "Assembly".

I think it was the Presbyterian Church of Queensland, which is probably a subsidiary of the Presbyterian Church of Australia.

There's a list of Presbyterian and Reformed Denominations in Australia here.

List of Presbyterian and Reformed denominations in Australia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here's a link to the Presbyterian Church of Australia.

Presbyterian Church of Australia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How this relates to your American equivalents I have no idea.

 

[RileyG]

As a former Presbyterian, now Catholic (RileyG is Catholic I'm pretty sure), my own experience of the Presbyrerian Church was that it was not as "liturgical" as the Catholic Church.

In this context the word "liturgical" needs to be a bit more clearly defined. Secondly I didn't study much Presbyterian theology or liturgy. I was a regular participant in the services, but picked it up on the run so to speak as I was an adult convert to Christianity (aged 28). Although in fairness I've picked up a lot of Catholic stuff "on the run" as well as I didn't become Catholic till I was in my 40's.

Mind you I learnt a lot from my old Presbyterian pastor and he could preach the pants off most Catholic priests I've heard. He had a gift for public speaking. He's still the most formidable religious figure I've met.

It depends what you mean by "liturgical". Order of service? Definition of sacraments? Statement of faith or creeds? The music? Quality of sermons or homilies? The definition of comunion and the elements?

There was a fixed order of service - opening hymn (preceded by more music in the evening service aimed a bit more at young people), Bible reading, homily, collection and so on. The only prayer I can remember reciting on occasion was the Lord's prayer ("Our Father" to Catholics); there was no statement of faith (Creed), no confession of sins (Confiteor), and we only had communion once every 3 months, although it was a solemn affair.

There were prayers but they weren't the highly organised affair that the Catholics have. There was usually only one Bible readng unlke the three and a half that Catholics have (usually OT, responsive psalm - the half - NT letter and the Gospel). But they knew the Bible better than most Catholics.

There was a liturgy but not as full as that of the Catholic Church.

PS - we had a gym under the church. I didn't have a church tracksuit, but it had the words on the back "... strong in the Lord...". That was actually quite true for some of the young blokes!

Thanks for your response, yes, I am a cradle Catholic.

 

[RileyG]

So hmmm not sure what Presbyterian denomination you were from or a splinter. We most certainly have a liturgy and we have a Book of Common Worship that has been around since time and memorial. Not all churches are required to utilize it, however they are encouraged to use its form. There is most certainly an Order of Worship and this is what it is.

The order of worship

What is the order or shape of worship? What are the primary actions? The Presbyterian Book of Common Worship describes a four-fold shape of

www.presbyterianmission.org

We do recite the Creeds, Have a Confession of Sin with Absolution ( which btw has been around since the time of John Calvin and John Knox)

Liturgy is defined as a Literally, a liturgy is a “work of the people,” or perhaps more helpfully, a “public service.” Therefore, at its most basic, “liturgy” refers to the order of a corporate worship service. All churches from every denominational stripe have an order of worship.Feb 8, 2023

But there are Liturgical Churches and Non Liturgical, they would probably fall into this category from Highest to Least

1. Eastern Orthodox
2. Roman Catholic
3. Church of England / Anglican
4. Lutheran
5 Presbyterian ( mainline) and Reformed
6. United Methodist/ Off shoot Reformed Churches and Presbyterian
7. Congregational
8. Baptist
9. Anabaptist
10/ Pentecostal etc...

I actually own a Book of Common Worship! As well as The Book of Common Prayer (Anglican)! Thanks for your response

 

[SF Edward]

I'm in Australia but to be honest I'm not sure which "Presbyterian denomination" I was in. I tended to stick to the local church and wasn't interested in the overarching authorities or the "Assembly".

I think it was the Presbyterian Church of Queensland, which is probably a subsidiary of the Presbyterian Church of Australia.

There's a list of Presbyterian and Reformed Denominations in Australia here.

List of Presbyterian and Reformed denominations in Australia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Here's a link to the Presbyterian Church of Australia.

Presbyterian Church of Australia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How this relates to your American equivalents I have no idea.

Yeah that is a good question. Most certainly would not really align with the PCUSA and it shows that it was about 70% PCA ( the other American Mainline denominations) Just reading about it, seems much more conservative and shares with Reformed Anglican/ Episcopal and some Reformed Baptist. The Queensland Church being offshoot of another offshoot Sounds a bit different. I am sure perhaps there are some similarities, but I am thinking they are different. Below is a normal order of service for a PCUSA church. As far as where we come from, we decent from the Church of Scotland. St Giles Cathedral in Edinburgh would be like our mother church, which is the National Church which is Presbyterian. Order of Service for PCUSA https://www.shadysidepres.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/2024_04_28_bulletin.pdf

 

[Bob Crowley]

After glancing briefly at your order of service, it is more "liturgical" than the church I went to. Mind you I have fond memories of the church and I enjoyed my time there, not because it was "Presbyterian" but due to the quality of the pastor, his family and the people there. I learnt a lot from the pastor in particular.

For what it's worth the website of that church is shown below, It has virtually nothing about the liturgy, but it is the church I'm talking about. Bear in mind I haven't been there since late 1991, although I did go back for a centenarian celebration. The church building itself is not 100 years old but there is a timber hall behind it which was the original church.

Wilston Presbyterian Church – Wilston Presbyterian Church

 

[SF Edward]

After glancing briefly at your order of service, it is more "liturgical" than the church I went to. Mind you I have fond memories of the church and I enjoyed my time there, not because it was "Presbyterian" but due to the quality of the pastor, his family and the people there. I learnt a lot from the pastor in particular.

For what it's worth the website of that church is shown below, It has virtually nothing about the liturgy, but it is the church I'm talking about. Bear in mind I haven't been there since late 1991, although I did go back for a centenarian celebration. The church building itself is not 100 years old but there is a timber hall behind it which was the original church.

Wilston Presbyterian Church – Wilston Presbyterian Church

Yep, yours is a Reformed Evangelical Church using the name Presbyterian as a whole for a form of Church Government. But I do not see outside of the Westminster Confession of Faith any of the other Church Confessions or Ancient Creeds. In my mind, I would consider this an offshoot. There re Methodists, Baptist etc that have offshoots of the mainline denomination as well.

 

[RileyG]

Yep, yours is a Reformed Evangelical Church using the name Presbyterian as a whole for a form of Church Government. But I do not see outside of the Westminster Confession of Faith any of the other Church Confessions or Ancient Creeds. In my mind, I would consider this an offshoot. There re Methodists, Baptist etc that have offshoots of the mainline denomination as well.

Interesting. Thanks for your insight and wisdom!