Are Christians better people on the inside?

OldWiseGuy

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When I look at the outward goodness of people, I see nothing within Christians that makes them significantly better. In fact, I would think the opposite.

Don't you mean within Christianity? We can't see within the individual Christian. In fact it wouldn't be surprising if a Christian was busy "removing the splinter from his own eye" rather than addressing the sins and needs of others. One of the greatest failings of mankind is the seeming inability to address one's own legitimate needs.
 
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doubtingmerle

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I ask you this then. In your keeping them does that mean you're thinking of yourself a better person than others who don't?
I do consider myself to be morally superior to mass murderers, serial rapists, and armed thugs. Why do you ask?
It seems your position later on in your posts is that NOBODY should ever consider themselves as you said 'BETTER' than others.
Nope. I never said that or even hinted at that. Go back and read what I said.
Are you not better than someone driving way, way beyond the speed limit in a residential zone? Wouldn't you be saying they're not very nice to be doing that?
Depends. Is he going to the hospital?
And please Doubtingmerle don't play a game with me suggesting they might be going to the hospital. You KNOW what I mean.
Its not a game. It comes to the heart of the matter. Life is full of gray areas. True moral development consists of understanding the issues, and charting the best course through all the gray. That is a better, healthier approach to morality than simply memorizing fixed moral absolutes.

But that OK a person choosing to repent and yes becoming a partaker of the divine nature, one who can now allow God's life and love to flow through them....well that would make them elevated in nature above others.....in other words better.
OK, so your answer to the question in the OP is that yes, Christians are morally superior.

I disagree.
 
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doubtingmerle

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Don't you mean within Christianity? We can't see within the individual Christian. In fact it wouldn't be surprising if a Christian was busy "removing the splinter from his own eye" rather than addressing the sins and needs of others. One of the greatest failings of mankind is the seeming inability to address one's own legitimate needs.

No. I mean Christians. Some Christians claim that Christians have the Holy Spirit and this makes them morally better persons than people who do not have the Holy Spirit.

I cannot see what goes on inside of Christians. All I can say is that some Christians claim that what is going on inside of them is morally superior to what goes on inside of unbelievers. I see no evidence for their claim of moral superiority. If anything, I would think it was the opposite.
 
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doubtingmerle

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Based on the definition of Humanism I have some problems with it.

humanism
[ˈ(h)yo͞oməˌnizəm]
NOUN

  1. an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems.
Humanism seems to be saying that the commandments (five through ten) are an irrational way of solving human problems.

Actually, no. The definition you listed says Humanists seek solely rational ways to solve human problems. That in no way states that statements of other religions are all irrational. Rather, it states that there is a mixture of rational and irrational out there, and we seek to solve human problems solely by the ways that are rational.


Regarding the potential value and goodness of people would you concede that someone who has reached that potential is a better person than one who has not?
Yes. I would think a person that has reached her moral potential is a better person morally than one who has not come close to reaching her potential.
 
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doubtingmerle

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You write this in response to the question, "Are you saying you are better morally than me". But then your post goes on to detail how Christians are better morally than non-Christians. So how can you keep on claiming that Christians are morally better than non-Christians, without implying that you are morally better than me?


When we love God and desire to do that which is pleasing to Him, He meets us half way and gives us a way to get through the temptation, He makes what, for us in and of our individual selves, is impossible, into a very real possibility, even if He allows us to experience some difficulty of doing so. Difficulty teaches us as well.
Ah you found a way to moral success. So have I. How do you know that you theistic path is better than my secular humanist path?

And we also see in this, my own personal experience, how God works with His people through the Holy Spirit. It's not just oh, magic bullet strikes and your just plain going to do the things God desires of you, but he gives you the strength you may lack, and the ability to rise above sin.
Ah, you have a power to rise above evil that I don't have? And this is not a claim that you as a Christian are morally better than non-Christians? It sure sounds like that is what you are saying.

People who are not saved through faith in Christ and living with a close relationship to God, renewed in Spirit sin... yes, and are slaves to sin - meaning yes, they are living in their fallen nature/condition.
Oh dear. You say I am a slave to doing nasty things. And you have a Spirit that leads to all kind of wonderful things. But you are not saying you have become morally superior to me?

Sounds like mumbo jumbo to me.

That is why we need to be given a new nature, which we get a taste of (not yet the fullness of) when we enter into faith through Christ and are sealed with God's Holy Spirit.
Got it. You have a new nature and I don't. But you are not telling me that you have become morally better than me.

More mumbo jumbo.


I agree with you to a degree, however the Holy Spirit within us should make us stand out from the crowd in that the light of Christ be seen in us, make us in ways different from perhaps the average.
Ah so you are like the men of Lake Wobegon, above average, and I am, uh, er, average?

I disagree.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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No. I mean Christians. Some Christians claim that Christians have the Holy Spirit and this makes them morally better persons than people who do not have the Holy Spirit.

I cannot see what goes on inside of Christians. All I can say is that some Christians claim that what is going on inside of them is morally superior to what goes on inside of unbelievers. I see no evidence for their claim of moral superiority. If anything, I would think it was the opposite.

I claim the "No True Scotsman" rule. That should settle the matter. :D
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Actually, no. The definition you listed says Humanists seek solely rational ways to solve human problems. That in no way states that statements of other religions are all irrational. Rather, it states that there is a mixture of rational and irrational out there, and we seek to solve human problems solely by the ways that are rational.

The definition clearly implies that rational solutions are in clear distinction from "divine" or religious solutions.

It must be stipulated that rational is very akin to rationalization. Many government policies are rationalizations intended to keep the ruling class in power, or to simply keep one's job.

Yes. I would think a person that has reached her moral potential is a better person morally than one who has not come close to reaching her potential.

On that we agree.
 
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doubtingmerle

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The definition clearly implies that rational solutions are in clear distinction from "divine" or religious solutions.
How do you know the ten commandments are divine?

For instance, could it not be that people just used their common sense, and realized that killing is not good, so they wrote, "Thou shalt not kill."
It must be stipulated that rational is very akin to rationalization. Many government policies are rationalizations intended to keep the ruling class in power, or to simply keep one's job.
Wrong. People that speak of rational solutions are not talking about rationalization. Those are two different things.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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How do you know the ten commandments are divine?

Only God would seriously codify such prohibitions. Man rationalizes his way around them.

Wrong. People that speak of rational solutions are not talking about rationalization. Those are two different things.

The evidence reveals that man's rationality is mostly rationalization. That's why I said they were 'kissin' cousins'. Look around you. Do you see rational decisions being made, or rationalizations?
 
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doubtingmerle

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In spite of having it explained many times to him, Merle talks as though Christianity teaches that Christians are 'better than' non-Christians.
That isn't at all the point of the Gospel.
Uh, no you have not explained that many times. In fact, you have emphatically insisted that, after one has become a Christian, this causes him to become a better person. For instance:

It is the work of God, from first to last. As a result, they will do the things that mark them as his own. If they do not, they are demonstrating that they are not his own. Regeneration, Belief, Faith, Confession to God, Repentance, Obedience, Pursuing Christ, etc etc are results of the Spirit of God within the believer

So I am a little curious how you can say you have explained it many times that salvation does not cause one to become a better person.

On the surface, the unregenerate may be more honest, more consistent, more self-less, more sound-of-mind, more happy, more satisfied with life, even more pious, and even more prone to altruism. But in spite of the unregenerate's best efforts, every thing he does, is at the core, rotten. He is self-dependent, opposed to God and unable to submit to God's law. Many an unregenerate 'Christian' thinks himself to be submitting by his attendance to the rules, his conscience 'now defending, now convicting' him. But that isn't what God calls obedience.
Got it. Since I am not a believer, I am "unregenerate", at the core rotten, and unable to submit to laws against killing, stealing, or bearing false witness. But Christians are different.

But you are not saying Christians have become morally superior.

Huh?

The Gospel has God changing the core with new life.
As I described in the OP, Christians teach that the gospel changes them, and makes them become better people than non-Christians. But you say, "That isn't at all the point of the Gospel."

So do the saved become better than the unsaved or don't they?

Second, your description in your first two paragraphs (whether it is true that people have told you this or not) is full of what the Bible does not teach.

Got it. So when you said,

It is the work of God, from first to last. As a result, they will do the things that mark them as his own. If they do not, they are demonstrating that they are not his own. Regeneration, Belief, Faith, Confession to God, Repentance, Obedience, Pursuing Christ, etc etc are results of the Spirit of God within the believer.

this if full of what the Bible does not teach?

They say "...they just naturally do the right thing? ..it is not a problem for them??? Wow. As if!! Being born again does fundamentally change a person, and that will show on the exterior, but the judgement by even the changed person is not valid, compared to God's judgement, though they are told to examine themselves to see if they are in the faith.
As if being saved fundamentally changes a person! That's silly. Oh, and being saved fundamentally changes a person.

Wait, what?
The Bible uses that very term, "natural", to describe the unregenerate and 'the old man' within the regenerated person, and not to describe the born-again heart/mind.
Got it. Christians have become better than people like me, but they haven't become better than people like me.

Huh?
You also say that to consider ourselves as mere products of evolution is preferable —at least in theory; I assume by that you mean naturalism 'works for me'. "Works for me" is a temporary assessment, I hope you know.
"Works for the apostle Paul" is also a temporary assessment.

Lastly, I will quote your whole paragraph. "The healthy person sees the totality of what he is up against, and finds a way to moral success. The unhealthy person is bogged down with fixed moral absolutes, with disdain for one's own inner self, and with disdain for the inner selves of others. I choose instead the way to emotional health, the way that is free." How is anyone able to see the totality of what one is up against? Nobody has that ability.
Understood. Perhaps I should have said looks at the totality of what he is up against as best he can. I was not saying people have infinite knowledge.

"Fixed moral absolutes" do not bog anyone down, unless one is committed to their opposite, or if one has false notions of what those moral absolutes are.
Read modern psychology. Fixed black and white thinking is not healthy.
 
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doubtingmerle

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Only God would seriously codify such prohibitions. Man rationalizes his way around them.
There were coded laws against killing and stealing long before the Ten Commandments.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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There were coded laws against killing and stealing long before the Ten Commandments.

Many people do the exact same things but often for far different reasons.
God codified the law for Israel to follow for the purpose of making it a great nation that would glorify God.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Read modern psychology. Fixed black and white thinking is not healthy.

Few things in life require black and white thinking, but where it's required...it is required.
 
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Hazelelponi

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But then your post goes on to detail how Christians are better morally than non-Christians

Only in God's eyes... let's face it things like smoking addictions aren't seen as "sins" in the eyes of man. To them it's just a physically unhealthy habit, not something that has become an idol between the addicted smoker and God.

The reason Christians want to see other people saved, is because a restored relationship with God is an amazing thing, and no one wants to see you judged negatively on the day of judgement, when God himself has provided a way to Himself in the positive.

Not because we are sitting around thinking ourselves morally superior. We too were once unsaved... we know it was God alone who provided the way for us, and apart from that we are no different.
 
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doubtingmerle

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God codified the law for Israel to follow for the purpose of making it a great nation that would glorify God.
So discrimination against the handicapped makes a nation great?

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God.
For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,
Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,
Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;
No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.
He shall eat the bread of his God, both of the most holy, and of the holy.
Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries: for I the LORD do sanctify them. (Leviticus 21:16-23)​
 
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doubtingmerle

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Not because we are sitting around thinking ourselves morally superior. We too were once unsaved... we know it was God alone who provided the way for us, and apart from that we are no different.

Ah, you don't like to think about the fact that you have become morally superior to me, but, uh, er, you have?
 
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doubtingmerle

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Few things in life require black and white thinking
...and people that apply black and white thinking to most anything in life have poor thinking patterns?

I agree.
 
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Bobber

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I do consider myself to be morally superior to mass murderers, serial rapists, and armed thugs. Why do you ask?

So you're not actually opposed to someone having a thought they might be morally better then someone else. You actually do think that way about yourself too.

Its not a game. It comes to the heart of the matter. Life is full of gray areas. True moral development consists of understanding the issues, and charting the best course through all the gray.
And so maybe you don't understand all the issues.

That is a better, healthier approach to morality than simply memorizing fixed moral absolutes.

Who says many haven't weighed and assessed what works and what doesn't? If they feel let's call it Christian principles produces the best results how to you take from that they've just memorized fixed moral absolutes.
 
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Bobber

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Ah, you don't like to think about the fact that you have become morally superior to me, but, uh, er, you have?
You were talking to Hazelponi here but no I'm not going to let you get away with this. You're actually thinking you're morally superior to Christians too. If not what else could you be saying? If you had a Christian background which you say you did you know full well that Lucifer/Satan made some type of appeal to the angelic realm that his way or morals were superior to God's.
 
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eleos1954

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Why the scare quotes?

Correct. David D. Burns, MD. did not claim to give eternal life. He claimed to give advice on how to live a good life. I think he does that quite well.

Not a "scare quote" .... is a fact quote ;o) The good life .... and eternal life is through Jesus. Not only does Jesus provide advise on how to life in our earthly life through His written word quite well ... but also provides eternal life as a free gift.
 
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