A question with a difference...

[Carl Emerson]

We recently had a shooting in Central Auckland - the perpetrator shot two fellow workers then took his own life.

It was a tragic and alarming event.

However in our country, the indigenous spiritual elders visited the site and pronounced a blessing and a cleansing of the site.

What does the Christian world think about this - no such move is made by Christian leaders.

Are we missing something ?

 

[Dave G.]

The spirit behind the incident could still be lurking. But you don't need anything but the name Jesus to remove it. In other words no ritualistic involvement. We have authority in Jesus' name to tell it to leave. Any born again believer has that authority over demons, but the power in it of course is Jesus Christ's..

 

[Paidiske]

I have known of Christian leaders doing such things, usually when they've occurred on church-owned sites.

My first thought is that for any other site, we would need to be invited, otherwise it's quite an intrusion.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The point is that are we happy to stand back and have homage made to a mythological 'god' and accept that their spirituality is more relevant than a waining 'colonial' Faith ?

 

[Paidiske]

We don't get to prevent other people from worshipping as they see fit, or insist that they accept our way of worshipping.

 

[Carl Emerson]

We don't get to prevent other people from worshipping as they see fit, or insist that they accept our way of worshipping.

Of course, but are Christian leaders happy to be ignored when it comes to dealing with spiritual matters ?

 

[Paidiske]

Of course, but are Christian leaders happy to be ignored when it comes to dealing with spiritual matters ?

What's the alternative?

I mean seriously, in the example you give. Should they force their way in where they're not invited? Write snarky letters to the editor about being overlooked?

I say, focus on mission, get on with the job, and if public rituals are important, trust God to open that door. But stamping your foot and demanding to be involved is not going to help rebuild the Church's reputation.

And be careful what you wish for, lest you find yourself asked to get up at the crack of dawn to pray for ANZAC day ceremonies that require quite some compromise of your values...

 

[Carl Emerson]

What's the alternative?

I mean seriously, in the example you give. Should they force their way in where they're not invited? Write snarky letters to the editor about being overlooked?

I say, focus on mission, get on with the job, and if public rituals are important, trust God to open that door. But stamping your foot and demanding to be involved is not going to help rebuild the Church's reputation.

And be careful what you wish for, lest you find yourself asked to get up at the crack of dawn to pray for ANZAC day ceremonies that require quite some compromise of your values...

Christian leaders have little voice in society - this was not always the case.

Are you comfortable with a silent church when society slides ever further into the mire ??

Will we not be called into account for saying nothing - failing to warn, failing to be heard at all ?

Paul went to great lengths to be heard by the prevailing secular society and authorities.

 

[Paidiske]

Are you comfortable with a silent church when society slides ever further into the mire ??

Will we not be called into account for saying nothing - failing to warn, failing to be heard at all ?

It's about time and place. Claiming an authority we don't have (which is how I would see barging in to do something unasked for and unwanted) is not helpful. That doesn't mean we're silent, or not heard, but that we need to engage respectfully.

Why would people be attracted to a faith community which openly disrespects them?

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

Why would people be attracted to a faith community which openly disrespects them?

Because it's true

 

[Paidiske]

We won't demonstrate that by behaving in a way which doesn't live up to that truth, though.

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

We won't demonstrate that by behaving in a way which doesn't live up to that truth, though.

I understand your point about being obnoxious to others (Romans 12:14-18) but basing our actions off of the appeal of our faith is what leads to things like homosexual marriages and the rejection of the authority of The Word of God. The appeal of our faith is not determined by the current society or it's current sensibilities.

 

[Paidiske]

Oh good grief no.

There's a world of difference between doing something immoral, and refraining from trespassing.

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

Oh good grief no.

There's a world of difference between doing something immoral, and refraining from trespassing.

Yeah I suppose you're right. But there's also some relevant truth in what Carl was saying that's at odds with doing things based upon the appeal of the faith. I'm sure the idea of people who follow demons cleansing demons doesn't sit right with you either. It is a fine line between obnoxious and respectful sometimes; especially so for our Anzac culture.

 

[Paidiske]

I'm sure the idea of people who follow demons cleansing demons doesn't sit right with you either.

There's a place for deliverance ministry. I don't think we usually need to go out looking for it, though.

 

[chevyontheriver]

We recently had a shooting in Central Auckland - the perpetrator shot two fellow workers then took his own life.

It was a tragic and alarming event.

However in our country, the indigenous spiritual elders visited the site and pronounced a blessing and a cleansing of the site.

What does the Christian world think about this - no such move is made by Christian leaders.

Are we missing something ?

Years ago a student jumped to his death from a high rise very near a parish I attended. The priest came out immediately and anointed the dying young man and then did a blessing at the site of the suicide. It was a public sidewalk so there were no permission issues. I don't know if the dying person was able to give permission or not, so it could be understood as implied permission. I suppose now that would be understood as implied refusal.

I think Christians often retreat from the public square before even being shoved out of it. Norms change, and we are more cowardly now. Not that we own the public square, or ever owned it for that matter, but we have become afraid to even be in the public square to sanctify it. That is not the same religion that emerged out of Palestine to overwhelm an empire.

 

[joymercy]

Years ago a student jumped to his death from a high rise very near a parish I attended. The priest came out immediately and anointed the dying young man and then did a blessing at the site of the suicide. It was a public sidewalk so there were no permission issues. I don't know if the dying person was able to give permission or not, so it could be understood as implied permission. I suppose now that would be understood as implied refusal.

I think Christians often retreat from the public square before even being shoved out of it. Norms change, and we are more cowardly now. Not that we own the public square, or ever owned it for that matter, but we have become afraid to even be in the public square to sanctify it. That is not the same religion that emerged out of Palestine to overwhelm an empire.

In my very little way, then, around facilities that are involved in the killings of the unborn, I'm walking by praying and sprinkling exorcised salt all over the walkways, sidewalk and anywhere else that is public and can lead to the entrance...

Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto thine.....

 

[chevyontheriver]

In my very little way, then, around facilities that are involved in the killings of the unborn, I'm walking by praying and sprinkling exorcised salt all over the walkways, sidewalk and anywhere else that is public and can lead to the entrance...

Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto thine.....

Some of that salt might even get tracked in!

 

[Carl Emerson]

We won't demonstrate that by behaving in a way which doesn't live up to that truth, though.

You really have set up a straw person...

No one is advocating barging in anywhere - this is a deflection from the central issue being put forward for discussion.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I would suggest a visit to the mayor's office and/or the police expressing the intent to cleanse/bless a crime scene when their work is done.