A flat earth and an earth-centered universe

[JohnClay]

There are a lot of verses that seem to say that the earth is flat and that it doesn't move and the sun moves around the earth.

e.g.
Over 200 Bible scriptures say the earth is FLAT! #FlatEarthDoctrine

Can Christians name ANY verses that imply the earth is NOT flat or is a ball or that the earth travels around the sun?

The only verses I can think of are Isaiah 40:22 ("circle of the earth" could be translated as "ball") and Job 26:7 ("he suspends the earth over nothing" - compare earth to balls like the moon and the sun).

Isaiah 40:22

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

There is nothing in that verse that conflicts with the flat earth interpretation. If the earth is a ball, the throne would only be "above" some of the earth - to some people the throne would be to the side, and to others it would be below them. If they were grasshoppers on a flat earth, God would be able to see them, but on a ball some would be hidden by the earth. A tent could exist above a flat earth, but not really around a ball.

Job 26:7

He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing.

Flat earthers believe the earth floats over nothing - so this isn't opposed to the flat earth theory. It may imply the earth can be compared to other things that float like the moon and sun, but that is a very indirect way of saying the earth is a ball.

In the beginning (Genesis 1:1) God created the heavens (empty space?) and the earth. Psalm 104:5 says "He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved." The sun was created on day 4. It doesn't make sense according to the Bible that the earth is in fact moving around the sun. Joshua 10:13 says "...The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day." According to science what actually would have happened would have been that the earth stopped rotating on its axis.

This is more than a case of many verses supporting the flat earth theory and geocentrism. It is what seems to be a complete absence of support for a spherical earth and heliocentrism.

If the Bible supported heliocentrism then Galileo wouldn't have gotten in trouble with the church.

 

[Tom 1]

There is nothing in that verse that conflicts with the flat earth interpretation. If the earth is a ball, the throne would only be "above" some of the earth - to some people the throne would be to the side, and to others it would be below them. If they were grasshoppers on a flat earth, God would be able to see them, but on a ball some would be hidden by the earth. A tent could exist above a flat earth, but not really around a ball.

I can’t think of any reason why the verses you quote would be taken to have some literal meaning. God sits ‘above’ the earth? What does that mean? However you explain them, can you come up with an explanation of ‘canopy’, ‘tent’ or ‘grasshoppers’? that isn’t in some way figurative? What reason is there to think this is anything other than a representation of God’s supremacy, position, and man’s relationship to him?

I don’t think there are any biblical literalists as such - although there are selective literalists, whose determinations of what is literal and what isn’t, within the creation narrative and elsewhere in the bible, are more a matter of church tradition than anything else.

 

[A_Thinker]

There are a lot of verses that seem to say that the earth is flat and that it doesn't move and the sun moves around the earth.

e.g.
Over 200 Bible scriptures say the earth is FLAT! #FlatEarthDoctrine

Can Christians name ANY verses that imply the earth is NOT flat or is a ball or that the earth travels around the sun?

The only verses I can think of are Isaiah 40:22 ("circle of the earth" could be translated as "ball") and Job 26:7 ("he suspends the earth over nothing" - compare earth to balls like the moon and the sun).

Isaiah 40:22

There is nothing in that verse that conflicts with the flat earth interpretation. If the earth is a ball, the throne would only be "above" some of the earth - to some people the throne would be to the side, and to others it would be below them. If they were grasshoppers on a flat earth, God would be able to see them, but on a ball some would be hidden by the earth. A tent could exist above a flat earth, but not really around a ball.

Job 26:7

Flat earthers believe the earth floats over nothing - so this isn't opposed to the flat earth theory. It may imply the earth can be compared to other things that float like the moon and sun, but that is a very indirect way of saying the earth is a ball.

In the beginning (Genesis 1:1) God created the heavens (empty space?) and the earth. Psalm 104:5 says "He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved." The sun was created on day 4. It doesn't make sense according to the Bible that the earth is in fact moving around the sun. Joshua 10:13 says "...The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day." According to science what actually would have happened would have been that the earth stopped rotating on its axis.

This is more than a case of many verses supporting the flat earth theory and geocentrism. It is what seems to be a complete absence of support for a spherical earth and heliocentrism.

If the Bible supported heliocentrism then Galileo wouldn't have gotten in trouble with the church.

Despite the rhetoric, ... there is not one verse in the Bible that says that the earth is flat.

There is a lot of metaphorical language about the earth in the Bible, ... but even these verses don't say that the earth is flat.

The shape of the earth is not the message of the scriptures. Why would we try to utilize the Bible like a science text ?

Over 200 Bible scriptures say the earth is FLAT!

This is a lie. What belief system finds the need to base itself upon a provable lie ?

 

[JohnClay]

I can’t think of any reason why the verses you quote would be taken to have some literal meaning. God sits ‘above’ the earth? What does that mean?

The author seemed to believe there was a distinct area that was "above" the earth, and God's presence was there. On the other hand if the earth is a globe, "above" has no clear meaning - to some people the same position is "below".

However you explain them, can you come up with an explanation of ‘canopy’, ‘tent’ or ‘grasshoppers’? that isn’t in some way figurative?

It is figurative. It says it is "like" a canopy, tent and grasshoppers. They would be like grasshoppers because they would look small above a flat earth. If the earth is a ball many wouldn't be seen at all, no matter how far "above" the earth you are.

What reason is there to think this is anything other than a representation of God’s supremacy, position, and man’s relationship to him.

It also talks about the author's belief about a flat earth vs a globe.

I don’t think there are any biblical literalists as such - although there are selective literalists, whose determinations of what is literal and what isn’t, within the creation narrative and elsewhere in the bible, are more a matter of church tradition than anything else.

If the Bible contains knowledge from God, why does there seem to be no verses that say the earth is not flat or that the earth moves around the sun while there are a large number of verses that say the opposite. If God wanted to seem real to modern skeptics he shouldn't have done that.

Also there's:
Psalm 103:12
"as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us."

If there is a flat earth (a traditional one), the east and the west are very far apart - as far as the earth is wide. If the earth is a globe, they meet up and in fact have zero distance between them.

 

[JohnClay]

Despite the rhetoric, ... there is not one verse in the Bible that says that the earth is flat.

There are things that imply it - e.g. that the earth has ends. A ball has no ends.

There is a lot of metaphorical language about the earth in the Bible, ... but even these verses don't say that the earth is flat.

They imply it - e.g. saying the throne is "above" the earth. That implies a belief in a flat earth.

The shape of the earth is not the message of the scriptures. Why would we try to utilize the Bible like a science text ?

So I guess you can't find any verses that imply the earth is in fact a ball or that the earth moves around the sun rather than the sun moving.
If God knows the future why did he include verses that flat earthers use as evidence and not have any verses that can be used against flat earthers?

 

[HTacianas]

There are a lot of verses that seem to say that the earth is flat and that it doesn't move and the sun moves around the earth.

e.g.
Over 200 Bible scriptures say the earth is FLAT! #FlatEarthDoctrine

Can Christians name ANY verses that imply the earth is NOT flat or is a ball or that the earth travels around the sun?

The only verses I can think of are Isaiah 40:22 ("circle of the earth" could be translated as "ball") and Job 26:7 ("he suspends the earth over nothing" - compare earth to balls like the moon and the sun).

Isaiah 40:22

There is nothing in that verse that conflicts with the flat earth interpretation. If the earth is a ball, the throne would only be "above" some of the earth - to some people the throne would be to the side, and to others it would be below them. If they were grasshoppers on a flat earth, God would be able to see them, but on a ball some would be hidden by the earth. A tent could exist above a flat earth, but not really around a ball.

Job 26:7

Flat earthers believe the earth floats over nothing - so this isn't opposed to the flat earth theory. It may imply the earth can be compared to other things that float like the moon and sun, but that is a very indirect way of saying the earth is a ball.

In the beginning (Genesis 1:1) God created the heavens (empty space?) and the earth. Psalm 104:5 says "He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved." The sun was created on day 4. It doesn't make sense according to the Bible that the earth is in fact moving around the sun. Joshua 10:13 says "...The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day." According to science what actually would have happened would have been that the earth stopped rotating on its axis.

This is more than a case of many verses supporting the flat earth theory and geocentrism. It is what seems to be a complete absence of support for a spherical earth and heliocentrism.

If the Bible supported heliocentrism then Galileo wouldn't have gotten in trouble with the church.

The most ancient Jews believed the earth was "coin shaped". That's the reason for the "circle of the earth" of Isaiah.

The "sun standing still for a day" comes from the summer solstice. Sol (sun) stice ( truncated form of standing). The ancients believed that the sun stood still on that day in the summer.

There are other more or less poetic descriptions of the earth, i.e., four corners, four pillars, four winds, foundation.

 

[Norbert L]

There are a lot of verses that seem to say that the earth is flat and that it doesn't move and the sun moves around the earth.

e.g.
Over 200 Bible scriptures say the earth is FLAT! #FlatEarthDoctrine

Can Christians name ANY verses that imply the earth is NOT flat or is a ball or that the earth travels around the sun?

The only verses I can think of are Isaiah 40:22 ("circle of the earth" could be translated as "ball") and Job 26:7 ("he suspends the earth over nothing" - compare earth to balls like the moon and the sun).

Isaiah 40:22

There is nothing in that verse that conflicts with the flat earth interpretation. If the earth is a ball, the throne would only be "above" some of the earth - to some people the throne would be to the side, and to others it would be below them. If they were grasshoppers on a flat earth, God would be able to see them, but on a ball some would be hidden by the earth. A tent could exist above a flat earth, but not really around a ball.

Job 26:7

Flat earthers believe the earth floats over nothing - so this isn't opposed to the flat earth theory. It may imply the earth can be compared to other things that float like the moon and sun, but that is a very indirect way of saying the earth is a ball.

In the beginning (Genesis 1:1) God created the heavens (empty space?) and the earth. Psalm 104:5 says "He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved." The sun was created on day 4. It doesn't make sense according to the Bible that the earth is in fact moving around the sun. Joshua 10:13 says "...The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day." According to science what actually would have happened would have been that the earth stopped rotating on its axis.

This is more than a case of many verses supporting the flat earth theory and geocentrism. It is what seems to be a complete absence of support for a spherical earth and heliocentrism.

If the Bible supported heliocentrism then Galileo wouldn't have gotten in trouble with the church.

I think it largely depends on how people back then would envision their environment. The language they would use would be restricted by the observations they were able to make. Basically their context is not our context, which creates a translation/interpretation problem for us for how they're using words.

For example, can a something that is flat and is a circle exist in a sphere? Obviously yes, best description I would compare that idea to is a platform. You can have a sphere and inside it have a circular platform where they think they're walking around on. The heavens then could be described as a tent in that kind of context because you can take a flat round platform and peg a tent around its' extremity. It would look like half a sphere.

 

[Tom 1]

The author seemed to believe there was a distinct area that was "above" the earth, and God's presence was there. On the other hand if the earth is a globe, "above" has no clear meaning - to some people the same position is "below".

That doesn't really explain a literal explanation - unless you think the earth is literally all there is, with nothing around it, and God for some reason being in a fixed position in relation to earth, i.e. 'above' it. How can it be said that God is in this one place? What does it mean that he is enthroned up there?
So much time is wasted trying to fit a text written thousands of years ago into a modern way of thinking. It is utterly pointless, and only serves to put people off Christianity.

 

[JohnClay]

The most ancient Jews believed the earth was "coin shaped".

So it looks like the Bible is giving them the impression that the earth is flat.

...The "sun standing still for a day" comes from the summer solstice. Sol (sun) stice ( truncated form of standing). The ancients believed that the sun stood still on that day in the summer.

But in reality it is the earth that is moving, not the sun.

There are other more or less poetic descriptions of the earth, i.e., four corners, four pillars, four winds, foundation.

They all are compatible to some degree with a flat earth and not at all with a spherical earth.

 

[A_Thinker]

Despite the rhetoric, ... there is not one verse in the Bible that says that the earth is flat.

There are things that imply it - e.g. that the earth has ends. A ball has no ends.

You mean statements like ... "to the ends of the earth" ??

 

[Tom 1]

If the Bible contains knowledge from God, why does there seem to be no verses that say the earth is not flat or that the earth moves around the sun while there are a large number of verses that say the opposite. If God wanted to seem real to modern skeptics he shouldn't have done that.

From whose perspective? The Genesis narrative is written from an ancient world perspective. We reinterpret it from a 21st C perspective. 100s, 1000s of years from now it will be viewed with an entirely different perspective. Which of those audiences should it be written for?
The bible makes no attempt whatsoever to address issues that we would consider to within the domain of the physical sciences. Why would it? - that is as far from it's purpose as flat earthery is from logic. If God had decided to deliver some scientific treatise (although how he would do that while using man as the means of recording it is another question) that actually gave some explanation, even if we had enough time to read it, we wouldn't be able to evaluate it or even understand it. It would just create some other reason for doubt.

 

[A_Thinker]

There is a lot of metaphorical language about the earth in the Bible, ... but even these verses don't say that the earth is flat.

They imply it - e.g. saying the throne is "above" the earth. That implies a belief in a flat earth.

You don't believe that God's throne could be "above" a spherical earth ?

 

[JohnClay]

That doesn't really explain a literal explanation - unless you think the earth is literally all there is, with nothing around it, and God for some reason being in a fixed position in relation to earth, i.e. 'above' it. How can it be said that God is in this one place? What does it mean that he is enthroned up there?...

Well Jesus "ascended into heaven" which would also be "above" the earth. God's presence is in the "holies of holies" and I'm sure there are other verses about God's presence - e.g. in Exodus, etc.

 

[A_Thinker]

If God knows the future why did he include verses that flat earthers use as evidence and not have any verses that can be used against flat earthers?

Why didn't He include statements that would preclude belief in dragons ?

 

[JohnClay]

You don't believe that God's throne could be "above" a spherical earth ?

No. Unless it was above the North Pole but then many of the people (grasshoppers) would be hidden from view. Or the throne could be above the Middle East but then it isn't above most places on the earth.

 

[JohnClay]

Why didn't He include statements that would preclude belief in dragons ?

And why does it only mention the heart when talking about thoughts or emotions and never your head (or brain). Aristotle literally believed people thought using their heart and I think the authors of the Bible thought that too.

 

[A_Thinker]

Also there's:
Psalm 103:12
"as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us."

You don't recognize this as being metaphorical ?

 

[Ken Rank]

Can Christians name ANY verses that imply the earth is NOT flat or is a ball or that the earth travels around the sun?

First things first, this Flat Earth movement is from satan. I say that for one simple reason, it does not unify, it divides brethren. And no doctrine of God's will divide brethren. It will divide the saved from the unsaved, the righteous from the heathen, it might even divide a family if one submits to Him as Lord and the rest of the family does not. But His doctrines, His teachings, His truths will not, or should not, divide BRETHREN.... i.e. His Israel, His people. Messiah came to gather His people, not scatter them.

All that is NOT TO SAY the Earth is round or flat. Simply and only that the part of this that drives a wedge between Christians is wrong, not of God.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Let's talk about the shape.......

As far as having any verse to prove the Earth is not flat.... can you share a single verse that proves that trees are round, that they are not 2D, flat? No, you can't... and yet we know they are round and 3D, why? Because we can observe... God doesn't have to explain every detail to us because He gave us eyes.

The flat earther expects us to believe that a few MILLION people, in now 121 nations that have some form of space flight, are ALL in collusion and not a single credible expert has come forth with any tangible evidence that the Earth is flat. The flat earther expects us to believe that many millions of pictures of the Earth, taken by a number of different countries, have all been photo-shopped as far back as 1959. Why? What difference does it make what shape the Earth is? Who cares? It is whatever it is! Is this a global conspiracy to sell globes to high schools and colleges? 121 nations, millions of people for over 60 YEARS now... all lying, and for no reason at all. Sure.. sign me up.

The problem is, people are not trained today to recognize the difference between literal and abstract. The Israelite was to wear his tzitziot (fringes, tassels) from his "4 corners." But people are not square, they don't have 4 corners!

 

[A_Thinker]

No. Unless it was above the North Pole but then many of the people (grasshoppers) would be hidden from view. Or the throne could be above the Middle East but then it isn't above most places on the earth.

I think that you're looking at this too literally ... considering that we have a God Who transcends space and time ...

 

[A_Thinker]

And why does it only mention the heart when talking about thoughts or emotions and never your head (or brain). Aristotle literally believed people thought using their heart and I think the authors of the Bible thought that too.

A perfect example of metaphorical language.