A few questions for Protestants

discombobulated1

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The Catholic Church WAS immediately established. Before Christianity, most religions were based on ethnic foundations as in Greek Gods, the Roman Army's worship of Mithras, Zoroastrians from Persia, etc.

Well, the Church that Jesus founded and passed to St Peter was the first "universal" religion. Meaning, anyone from any walk of life could become Christian. That is how the Catholic (meaning universal) Church started in Jerusalem first to the Jews. It then was made available to the Gentiles of Greece and Rome among other countries like Ethiopia.

It is commonly accepted by factions of the Protestant Churches that the Catholic Church was not the first Church however, they were most;y on a mission to discredit the Church. It is well known that the Bishops of the Catholic Church settled on what books the New Testament were to be considered the inspired word of God. Then Protestants (certain ones) then use that same Bible as they see fit in their own traditions and interpretations to challenge the very Church that brought them an infallible Bible.

It's politics. Christ founded The Church, he passed the keys to St Peter (our first Pope) who would then found the Church of Rome which would Christianize all of Western Europe, South America, and Africa. The Church is the Church. Protestants (protesters) all have their own way of interpreting the New Testament. That is why it seems that all of the Bible verses that teach repentance and obedience are ignored for what is essentially Universal Salvation
I agree w/ all this. I was at this one forum not long ago where anti-Catholic people would argue everything a Catholic said --and I mean everything! And yet they would not even respond when a Catholic quoted some Scrpture to support some Catholic belief or practice.. Purgatory or what have you. I happen to know scriptures that allude to Purgatory, etc.

So those Bible-only people who claim to go by the Bible alone REJECTED Scripture that "sounded too Catholic." You could argue that they didn't really reject the scriptures Catholics brought up, they just didn't respond to those threads/posts. But no, they were rejecting them because otherwise, they would have brought up their version of said scriptures, but they NEVER did (that I know of). It's like they couldn't argue w/ the Catholic position, so they just went to some other topic to bash Catholics

So much for Bible alone!
 
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discombobulated1

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I wouldn't put too much stock in being sure one Is necessarily the real church by it's longevity.


I don't. But I do put much stock in the Real Presence of Christ, which I experience at Holy Mass.

Besides, God woman (the true church) went into hiding for 1260 yrs. (12:14).
not familiar w/ this terminology: God woman! The Catholics do refer to the Church as "she" and "her," but the way you put it is... odd More important, though, the Church never went into hiding, not the real one established by Christ.. Some of the members had to hide from the anti-Christ rulers but the entire Church did not go underground, to speak of. Jesus spoke of a visible Church, a city on a hill... not hiding your light under a basket..



I wouldn't count on Ignatius as a reliable source.
I have studied history of the Church. St Ignatius was reliable. Unreliable persons who taught false teachings were anathematized by the Church, excommunicated.

Other than that, you should know that I am quite weary of arguing the Protestant v Catholic stuff. I've been doing it for years and I've learned that people are not listening to the information I have. It seems if you don't get Catholicism early, you don't get it at all, to speak of. There are exceptions like Scott Hahn. I always recommend his books to those who are questioning Catholicism. He read probably every book under the sun on Catholicism and the arguments against it. He was raised in a very anti-Catholic environment, I believe.. or maybe he joined that kind of community after he grew up, can't recall... but in any case, he began being open to the CC and in time, converted. Then his wife and children followed him into the CC.
 
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Carl Emerson

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A good question. At one time a few years ago, I would have wondered about the Catholic Church losing its lampstand, but I do not wonder about that anymore. That's because the Real Presence of Christ is still there in at least some --maybe all (to some extent?) CCs. I know because I have been experiencing the RP for many years now, despite a heretic being at the helm. Jesus promised He would never leave us .. Mt 28:20 and other psgs. He also said that His Church would prevail over the very gates of Hell... (Mt 16:18) --very important because Satan is more powerful than human beings. We absolutely need this Church that can conquer that so and so

Subjective feelings do not serve us well when determining what God is doing or not.

Better to look for evidence of Him at work.
 
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discombobulated1

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Subjective feelings do not serve us well when determining what God is doing or not.

Better to look for evidence of Him at work.
who said my experiences are subjective?

You have likely never been in the Real Presence so you cannot speak on this
 
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discombobulated1

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"Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, so we trust His words and what He set forward for us to do (The Great Commission)." This was pretty much the answer to that. The bible, the words of Jesus, is the pillar of our truth and faith. It's how we live and how we're guided.
People disagree ubiquitously on what a given scripture psg means. Jesus's Words come to us in ways other than the Bible. Even Jesus said something to.. someone about how the Word says "Did I not say you are gods?" (I, meaning God). But you cannot find what he is referencing in the Old Testament. He was referring to a traditional teaching that was accepted by the Jews but was NOT written down.
 
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Carl Emerson

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People disagree ubiquitously on what a given scripture psg means. Jesus's Words come to us in ways other than the Bible. Even Jesus said something to.. someone about how the Word says "Did I not say you are gods?" (I, meaning God). But you cannot find what he is referencing in the Old Testament. He was referring to a traditional teaching that was accepted by the Jews but was NOT written down.

Psalm 82:6
"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High...."
 
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rturner76

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I agree w/ all this. I was at this one forum not long ago where anti-Catholic people would argue everything a Catholic said --and I mean everything! And yet they would not even respond when a Catholic quoted some Scrpture to support some Catholic belief or practice.. Purgatory or what have you. I happen to know scriptures that allude to Purgatory, etc.

So those Bible-only people who claim to go by the Bible alone REJECTED Scripture that "sounded too Catholic." You could argue that they didn't really reject the scriptures Catholics brought up, they just didn't respond to those threads/posts. But no, they were rejecting them because otherwise, they would have brought up their version of said scriptures, but they NEVER did (that I know of). It's like they couldn't argue w/ the Catholic position, so they just went to some other topic to bash Catholics

So much for Bible alone!
The other thing is that when Catholics (and others) refer to "traditions" one side says that traditions are made up and not Biblical and the other side says any tradition can be tested by scripture. I know people have different interpretations but I wonder whose expertise drives these new ways of interpreting scripture. Is it some guy who felt inspired, was a good orator and organizer, or were these changes made by a committee of lifelong Priests, Bishops, Cardinals etc who came to a consensus based on what they were taught through the Apostolic Succession, meaning a global community of people with education and experience who come to a consensus, rather a gifted speaker saying "forget what you know, it's really this way." For my conscience, I'd like a global conference like the early days of the Church had. Like "we don't change it if we son't agree it's right."

That's not to say the Church hasn't changed it's ways from building armies and rooting out infidels and heritics by the sword. I can see how people would think twice about a Church with that history.
 
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timothyu

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He also said that His Church would prevail over the very gates of Hell...
You do realize He was not talking of the boogey man but of the Kingdom defeating death which was referenced by the 'gates of hell', the end to the eternal death man suffered before the Gospel of the Kingdom. You however are free to carry on your tradition. I will believe death has been defeated.
 
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jas3

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not familiar w/ this terminology: God woman! The Catholics do refer to the Church as "she" and "her," but the way you put it is... odd
He also said "blasphemy" in response to me citing John 20:22-23 (post #1298) and refused to elaborate, so yeah, definitely some odd theology going on here.
 
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Studyman

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I read this far and have a resounding NO in response.

I have read the Old and the New Testaments both and in the Old, the Jews (and Jesus was one of them) were instructed by God to build the tabernacle (Ark of the Covenant) and adorn it with images of cherubim (heavenly beings) and oxen (earthly ones) made of gold and brass.

If you read the Bible, you would also know that the Tabernacle and Ark of the Covenant were Mobil, not built of wood and stone, and even the alter therein was to be made of dirt. And the Ark couldn't even be touched, unless you were a Levite Priest.

Nothing the Pharisees or the Catholics or her Protestant daughters created even resembles this instruction.
It is when one worships the image itself.. instead of worshiping God that is the problem. But who in his right mind would worship the image of an ox like the story we hear in the Old T... about how Moses caught the people worshiping the fake calf and threw down the 10 Commandment tablets in anger..? I never did understand that... worshiping a fake calf... or even a real one! Some day I will ask a Catholic priest about that one because it baffles me.

In my experience, If you want "Catholicism" you will ask a Catholic Priest. If you want Arminianism or Calvinism, you will ask a Baptist preacher. If you want God's Truth, you will Study His Word apart from all these "other voices" in the garden God placed you in, and if your heart is truly seeking Truth, and not just justification, God may grant you the answer you seek.

I have studied apart from any of this world's religions now for 30 years. My understanding is that the bullock of a year old, "A calf" was killed as a Sin offering. The Faithless Israelites looked at the innocent being God provided for their salvation and instead of worshipping God, even as Jesus instructed, they created an image of God in the likeness of the offering, the calf. It's the same today. And innocent man was slaughtered for a sin offering, and instead of worshipping the God who provided the offering as the offering instructed, men create an image of God in the Likness of the offering, and worship it. In this case, an image of some random, long haired handsome man.

And they rejected God's Judgments, as did the Pharisees. And they polluted God's Sabbaths, as did the Pharisees. And anyone who would strive to "Walk, even as Jesus walked" were hunted and murdered by them, even as the Pharisees hunted and murdered those "whose refuge was the Lord".

So given the undeniable history of the "mother religion" I would advise NOT to get my answers from her.

In any case, Moses was one of the first, if not the first, to talk to God face to face like he would talk to a human being. Maybe the people just didn't know what that was like? Still.. a calf! Weird...
The Law and Prophets are Spiritual, and the "Calf" represents something for us today, as it was written specifically for us, at this time in history, "upon who the ends of the world have come". It used to seem weird for me too, until I saw how people worshiped the image of the sin offering God provided for them, instead of the God who provided it. The Jesus "of the Bible" tells us, but "many" just don't believe Him.

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

In any case, the point is that not all images were prohibited. The protestants are big on accusing Catholics of worshiping images of Mary and other saints because most Protestants (in my experience) have not read a fraction of the Old Testament. Mostly, they focus on the New, which I myself did when I first had a big experience with Jesus. I didn't understand the parts of the Old T I tried to read, but that was many moons ago and I have since read the whole Bible (best version available, which is the non-interpretive Douay Rheims)

I'm glad you are reading the Bible. I would just warn you to "Take heed" of the "many" Jesus warned about, who come in Christ's Name, who profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate".

God's Speed to you.
 
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discombobulated1

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rather a gifted speaker saying "forget what you know, it's really this way." For my conscience, I'd like a global conference like the early days of the Church had. Like "we don't change it if we son't agree it's right."

That's not to say the Church hasn't changed it's ways from building armies and rooting out infidels and heritics by the sword. I can see how people would think twice about a Church with that history.
I would like to understand what you are saying b4 commenting. Coud you re-word the highlighted part?

I think I get what you're saying but want to make sure. Thanks. I am wary of global... anything. And the liberalism in the Church doesn't portend a good outcome even if we had one
 
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discombobulated1

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In my experience, If you want "Catholicism" you will ask a Catholic Priest. If you want Arminianism or Calvinism, you will ask a Baptist preacher. If you want God's Truth, you will Study His Word apart from all these "other voices" in the garden God placed you in, and if your heart is truly seeking Truth, and not just justification, God may grant you the answer you seek.

Nope. When you do that (highlighted) you are depending on a very UN-reliable person as Interpreter---namely YOU. Why are YOU better than, say, a pope who has been steeped in the Word for, say, 40 years? In Protestantism, everyone is his or her own pope.. hence the CONFUSION we have today. And don't bring up Francis and the goofy, un-Christian things he has said because he is not a true pope. The last of the true popes was Pius XII - 1958.
 
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Studyman

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Nope. When you do that (highlighted) you are depending on a very UN-reliable person as Interpreter---namely YOU.

No, I am placing my Faith in God as Paul teaches;

2 Tim. 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I am also believing the warnings of the Christ.

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that "no man" deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

I don't have to worry about Paul deceiving me, or Jesus or God or the Prophets HE sent to teach me in the way that I should go, as you imply in your post. I am told to take Heed of "Many" men who call Jesus Lord, who Paul warns "Transforms Themselves into apostles of Christ".

I get that you don't believe what is written, and therefore have chosen to adopt one of the "many" religious businesses and sects which exist in the garden God placed you in. Just as Eve did. I believe God can reveal Himself to me without the need of going to the man with the fish hat, wearing long flowing robes, sitting in the chief seats of the house, mostly because Jesus said "Don't be like them". I don't want to be in the place those Christians were in Matt. 7. You are free to place your faith in man if you want.




Why are YOU better than, say, a pope who has been steeped in the Word for, say, 40 years?

The Pope isn't steeping in the Word, he is steeped in ancient catholic traditions, many of which he adopted from the Pharisees, like creating massive religious businesses, building shrines of worship made of wood and stone, rejecting God's Commandment so they can walk in their own traditions. I am no better than they are, and God is no respecter of persons. I can read what Jesus thought about religions who do as the Pharisees and Catholics and her protestant daughters do. Have I been deceived into believing I am somehow better than they are? That I can call Jesus Lord, but transgress God's commandments " and not be judged the same as they? No, I am not better than they are. That's why I don't partake with them.

In Protestantism, everyone is his or her own pope.. hence the CONFUSION we have today.

No, they have their own philosophers just as the Pope does. They promote manmade traditions, just as the Pope does. Thankfully all these religions who transgress god's commandments by their own religious traditions are divided, and not joined together as one religion. God put a stop to that at the tower of Babel, and I am grateful that HE did.

And don't bring up Francis and the goofy, un-Christian things he has said because he is not a true pope. The last of the true popes was Pius XII - 1958.

Well, it's your religion so you can listen to whoever you want. I will take my chances with the Holy scriptures.
 
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timothyu

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This came online today. It is a historically accurate depiction pre-Inquisition.

"In 1263, in order further to facilitate the conversion of the Jews, Jaime I. arranged a public debate at the royal palace in Barcelona, under the presidency of Peñaforte, between the missionary Fra Paolo (or Pablo Christiani), a baptized Jew, and the eminent Spanish rabbi, Moses ben NaḦman (Bonastruc de Porta)." .... ARAGON - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Closed captioning. Well worth the watch

 
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discombobulated1

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You do realize He was not talking of the boogey man but of the Kingdom defeating death which was referenced by the 'gates of hell', the end to the eternal death man suffered before the Gospel of the Kingdom.
That psg is NOT about death. Everyone dies. So there's that..
 
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discombobulated1

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Well, it's your religion so you can listen to whoever you want. I will take my chances with the Holy scriptures.
interpreted by YOU!

And you know the Scirptures better than priests who are in college/seminary for 8 years before becoming ordained!

ok, whatever

I have studiedCatholicism. I don't just accept it because I was "raised Catholic" which I kind of wasn't... (?). We went to Mass on Sunday and the rest of the week lived like .. everyone else. But I studied it and am still studying it. So much for the ubiquitous notion that Catholics do not know what they believe. Sorry, I am not an ignorant rube who can be knocked over w/ the first argument from a non-Catholic! Sorry for the disappointment.

I don't even know what YOUR interpretation of Scripture looks like! But I do know that Christ established a Church and part of the mission of said Church was/is to interpret Scripture infallibly. I somehow doubt you are infallible.

On the other hand... Christ's Church

no problem!
 
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timothyu

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That psg is NOT about death. Everyone dies. So there's that..
Yes they do and would remain so if it were not for the Kingdom where even the gates of hell cannot prevent resurrection at God;s will. Sorry but in context that is what the passage is about.
 
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discombobulated1

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Yes they do and would remain so if it were not for the Kingdom where even the gates of hell cannot prevent resurrection at God;s will. Sorry but in context that is what the passage is about.
I cannot respond as I have absolutely NO idea what you are saying
 
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Studyman

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interpreted by YOU!

Of course, this is what the Jesus "of the Bible" and the Apostles taught me to do.

Matt. 6: 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

2 Tim. 2: 15 Study to shew thyself approved "unto God", a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Rom. 2: 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world (or it's religions): but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2 Tim. 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

1 Cor. 10: 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

If I listen to a Pharisee, I will become "Learned of the Pharisees" If I listen to Catholic Priests, I will become "Learned of the Catholic". If I listen to Protestant preacher, I will become "learned of the Protestant". And so on.

Jesus Himself told me;

John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all "taught of God". Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

So yes, God knew there would be "many" deceivers in the world we live in. He warned about them being "Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord. "Many" deceivers will come in Jesus Name preaching that HE, Jesus, is the Messiah. "Many" deceivers will "Transform themselves" into Apostles of Christ. So God, knowing this would come to pass, had HIS Truth, HIS Righteousness, HIS Judgments written down for anyone interested in knowing Him. We all have the Oracles of God in our own hands. Why would I, if I believed in the Jesus "of the bible", listen to another voice in the garden God placed me in, given all the warnings about doing that very thing?

And you know the Scirptures better than priests who are in college/seminary for 8 years before becoming ordained!

LOL, which seminary? A Protestant Seminary? An SDA Seminary? The Moravian Theological Seminary? No, they must attend a Catholic Seminary. In which they are taught Catholic Theology, and Catholic traditions and Catholic doctrines created by "many" men, who "transformed themselves" into Apostles of Christ.

Do I know Catholicism better than an ordained catholic Priest. Of course not. Why would I? I am not interested in this world's religions, rather, I am interested in what the Holy Scriptures actually say. Do I know the Scriptures better that a Catholic Priest? Of course I do. I don't study catholic doctrine, I study god's Word, and they are pretty much opposing views. Even the thought that a man must first be taught by Gamaliel or the St. Mary's Seminary & University, or the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary to know God is one of the most Faithless beliefs there is. That God can't guide me through the Holy Scriptures HE created for me "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" is foolishness. Eve had the Word of God, but chose to listen to a preacher of this world, who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate". It didn't end well for her, why would I believe that I can do the same thing and the outcome will be different?
ok, whatever

I have studiedCatholicism. I don't just accept it because I was "raised Catholic" which I kind of wasn't... (?). We went to Mass on Sunday and the rest of the week lived like .. everyone else. But I studied it and am still studying it. So much for the ubiquitous notion that Catholics do not know what they believe. Sorry, I am not an ignorant rube who can be knocked over w/ the first argument from a non-Catholic! Sorry for the disappointment.

Surely you misunderstand the point I am making. I have no doubt that you are a Catholic of Catholics, which profited in the Catholic religion above many others in the same religious sect, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of your Catholic fathers.

I am simply pointing out that Jesus and Paul warned about this world's religious businesses and sects, especially those who come in Christ's Name.

I don't even know what YOUR interpretation of Scripture looks like! But I do know that Christ established a Church and part of the mission of said Church was/is to interpret Scripture infallibly. I somehow doubt you are infallible.

This is true, the Christ "of the Bible" established HIS Church, and interpreted and selected 12 Apostles to continue the interpretation of the Law and Prophets, where the Gospel of the Christ "of the bible" is found, according to Paul in Rom. 1.

And I do believe God, the Prophets HE chose and Inspired, His Son, the Jesus "of the bible" and the apostles His Son chose, interpretated God's Word infallibly. I am told to question those who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate". Or those who call Jesus Lord, Lord, but transgress God's commandments by their own religious traditions. Or those in long flowing robes, who sit in the Chief seats of the manmade shrines of worship made of wood and stone, that God doesn't dwell in.

On the other hand... Christ's Church

no problem!

Every religious business of this world who comes in Christ's Name, claims to be "Christ's Church". Just because the religion you have adopted has made the most money, created the most political power, and has made so many merchants of this earth wax rich, even has her own Stock Market symbol, doesn't automatically make your religion God's Church.

Listen to what the Jesus of the Bible teaches;

1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

Can you not read this for yourself?


5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

When you see a huge manmade shrine of worship, with bells ringing and people yelling and shouting praises to God, whose ears are they trying to reach? God's, who can hear them in the closet with the door closed? Or are they trying to grow their religious business.

The Jesus of the Bible warned you about these religions. I am posting these warnings advocating that you place your trust in the Scriptures and the God who inspired them. Even Abraham was told to leave his father's religion. You will probably just get offended and close your eyes and ears to the Light regarding these things, as the mainstream preachers of Christ's Time did, and as I also did in my youth.

My hope is that you would believe in the Christ of the Bible enough to question this world's religions, and "that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." as opposed to the will of the Catholic or Protestant religion.
 
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