Israel-Hamas Thread II

Ana the Ist

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1. Don't use 2000lb bombs.

Why not?


2. Don't destroy and bulldoze farms.

Why not?

3. Don't destroy and bulldoze cemeteries.

Why not?

4. Don't target children and babies.

They don't...Hamas does hide behind them like cowards though.

5. Don't leave babies to slowly die in hospitals.

They don't.

6. Don't torture people in custody to death.

Is this advice for Hamas?

7. Allow food and water in.

Why?

8. Don't bomb the safe zones you tell people to evacuate to.

It's war...mistakes happen.

9. Open up your own territory to temporarily evacuate civilians.

Nonsense. Egypt can open up its territory to evacuate civilians.


10. Don't bomb hospitals.

Don't build military bases under hospitals.

11. Don't lie about bombing hospitals.

Don't build military bases under hospitals.

12. Don't destroy bakeries.

Why not?

13. Don't destroy water purification equipment.

Why not?

14. Don't destroy sewage treatment facilities.

Why not?

15. Don't murder paramedics.

Paramedics shouldn't be hiding Hamas fighters.

16. Don't murder reporters.

It's a war....reporters risk their lives by getting too close.


17. Don't bomb the routes to the safe zones you tell people to evacuate to.

See above.


18. Allow medicine, including painkillers, in.

Why? Shouldn't those civilians be fleeing??

19. Don't murder aid workers.

Don't hide Hamas fighters.


20. I could go on and on.

I wouldn't waste your time...you should inform yourself first.

Of course, this could all have been prevented if Israel and its supporters would have simply not continued their concentration camp and the murder and pillaging of Palestinians and their land.

That's not why this war started.

This war started because Hamas decided to murder 1200 civilians who were at a concert...and then kidnap another 200....including the elderly and babies.

Btw...this is Gaza pre-war...

BNgJ-T3CYAIA3AK.jpeg


Gaza.jpeg


Gaza2.jpeg


This is the Dachau concentration camp...

befreiung.jpg



This is the Aushwitz concentration camp...

auschwitz-gettyimages-1239836120.jpg


You may be able to fool some ignorant people who have no idea what a concentration camp is...but you won't fool any jews.
 
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Philip_B

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This war started because Hamas decided to murder 1200 civilians who were at a concert...and then kidnap another 200....including the elderly and babies.
This is an oversimplification and rightly could be thought of as propaganda. The decision about where you start the discussion will determine where you end up. And to be clear I am firmly against the actions of Hamas on October 7 2023.
 
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Ana the Ist

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This is an oversimplification and rightly could be thought of as propaganda.

Well I'm speaking specifically about this war.

Not the previous wars....this one specifically.

If you think I'm forgetting something, spit it out.



The decision about where you start the discussion will determine where you end up. And to be clear I am firmly against the actions of Hamas on October 7 2023.

Ok...one has to start an explanation somewhere though, and honestly, I don't think Gaza would be in the situation they are currently in had October 7th not happened.
 
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Philip_B

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Well I'm speaking specifically about this war.

Not the previous wars....this one specifically.

If you think I'm forgetting something, spit it out.





Ok...one has to start an explanation somewhere though, and honestly, I don't think Gaza would be in the situation they are currently in had October 7th not happened.
I think that is a poor approach to history, like suggesting truth in substance can be gleaned from factoids.

If as you and the Prime Minister of Israel contend the atrocities of the 7th of October 2023 are the root cause of this particular war, surely it is reasonable to assume that one might want to investigate what were the causes that resulted in those events. The region has been dominated by empires between the two periods of self-rule by Israel - the 75 years of the Davidic Kingdom and the 75 years of the Secular Democracy. The Jews have lived in a land subjected for some of that time but for most of the time in exile and diaspora. The Palestinians are not intruders but rather the people who have tilled the soil and made their homes here. The Zionist movement of Europe and England from the late 19th century focussed on the idea that this land was given to the Jews by God in perpetuity. That has steadily grown be the idea that it was to be theirs exclusively.

No doubt one of the source texts for that is found in Genesis 17, where God is speaking to Abraham

(7) I will establish my covenant between me and you, and your offspring after you throughout their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. (8) And I will give to you, and to your offspring after you, the land where you are now an alien, all the land of Canaan, for a perpetual holding; and I will be their God.’​

The offspring of Abraham that we know about include
  • Ishmael (by Hagar)
  • Isaac (by Sarah)
  • Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah (by Kenurah)
It seems to me that claims of exclusivity of ownership/possession of the land are a more modern invention.

The approach taken by Lord Balfour which ultimately led to the Balfour Declaration was designed to discriminate against the Palestinian people, and this was redoubled by UN Security Council Resolution 242.

During the troubles in Ireland, one of the sayings that did the rounds was "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" It probably has some resonance in the current conflict as well.
 

MartyF

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True.


True.
Do you have a source?
That's certainly possible...but the Hamas supporters definitely don't know the meaning.
Maybe we should ask the Likud party.

Go ahead and tell me which universities are invested in arms manufacturing and how much they've invested in arms manufacturing.

I couldn't find any such information but hey, maybe you did.
Here . . . let me help you.
We've already been over the apartheid stuff...
Who's we?

And right here is an admission to there being apartheid and the support of it!
Nonsense. Egypt can open up its territory to evacuate civilians.
Not a red herring...just my personal opinion.
You might want to look up what a red herring is.
Here's a fun fact though...no matter who wins, they'll support Israel. It doesn't matter if they promise to support Hamas....they'll support Israel.
A foreign country in complete political control of the U.S. - You're happy about this?
 
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MartyF

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Because it kills everyone around the target and not just the target.
Because people can't feed themselves without farms.
Because the only reason to bulldoze a cemetery is to carry out an ethnic cleansing.
They don't...Hamas does hide behind them like cowards though.
The only ones who do that is Israel.
1715504057637.png

They don't.
The corpses of babies disagree with you.

Is this advice for Hamas?
Hamas shouldn't torture its prisoners either but Hamas isn't known for torturing prisoners - Israel is.

To allow people to eat.
It's war...mistakes happen.
Not a mistake - done on purpose.
Don't build military bases under hospitals.
No evidence of this.
Don't build military bases under hospitals.
20. Israel shouldn't lie about military bases under hospitals.
Because they feed people.
Because they provide fresh drinking water.

For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

NIV
Because it prevents the spread of disease.
Paramedics shouldn't be hiding Hamas fighters.
What evidence do you have that she's Hamas?
1715505578943.png

It's a war....reporters risk their lives by getting too close.
They are being murdered in their homes.

See above.
Not a mistake - done on purpose.
Why? Shouldn't those civilians be fleeing??
Read what you wrote. Israel's apartheid government prevents this from happening.
Don't hide Hamas fighters.
What evidence do you have that they were hiding Hamas fighters?
1715506333059.png

I wouldn't waste your time...you should inform yourself first.
I already have. You should follow your own advice.
That's not why this war started.

This war started because Hamas decided to murder 1200 civilians who were at a concert...and then kidnap another 200....including the elderly and babies.
Factually incorrect.

Btw...this is Gaza pre-war...
Wrong. This is Gaza prewar.
1715507040994.png

You may be able to fool some ignorant people who have no idea what a concentration camp is...but you won't fool any jews.
That's where I get most of my information.

You can start with Ilan Pappe's books- The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine and The Biggest Prison on Earth.

Norman Finkelstein - Image and reality of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.

You can watch them admit to it in the documentary Tantura.

And you can listen to this Holocaust survivor explaining how the Gaza genocide is the same.
 
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MartyF

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General Israeli playbook.

1. It didn't happen.
2. Ok, it did happen but the other guy did it.
3. Alright, we did it but it was an accident.
4. Why are we still talking about this? Are you an anti-semite?
 
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Ana the Ist

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Do you have a source?

How about 1st hand video evidence?



Plenty more where that came from...antisemitic scum treating Jewish students who have nothing to do with the conflict like 2nd class citizens. Real nazi tactics here.


Maybe we should ask the Likud party.


Why? It's not the Likud party chanting it on these campuses. It's Hamas supporters. Let's educate you about what Hamas means by "from the river to the sea"...


"December 2012, Khaled Mashaal, a leader in exile, reflected the traditional Hamas hardline, “The state will come from resistance, not negotiation. Liberation first, then statehood. Palestine is ours from the river to the sea and from the south to the north,” he said in a speech. “There will be no concession on any inch of the land. We will never recognize the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation, and therefore there is no legitimacy for Israel… We will free Jerusalem inch by inch, stone by stone. Israel has no right to be in Jerusalem.”

Perhaps they mean some sort of peaceful attempt to share the land with the Jewish people?


The charter views the jihad (holy war) as the way to take all of "Palestine" from the Jews and to destroy the State of Israel, and Hamas's terrorist attacks are seen as links in the jihad chain carried out during the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Article 15 states that "the jihad to liberate ‘Palestine' is the personal duty" of every Muslim, an idea expounded by ‘Abdallah ‘Azzam.

I guess not.

I already looked...and like you, I couldn't find anything.

If you had any evidence of your claims (like I produced above) you would have posted it.

Much like these protesters, you appear to be making things up about these colleges to justify the hatred of Jewish people.

Let Me Google That
Who's we?

You and me. I pointed out that Palestinians have more rights in Israel than Israelis do in Palestine. You didn't deny it because you know it's true.

Now...if you believe that Israel is still an apartheid state, then by the same logic, Palestine is a far worse apartheid state.

This is why I don't take your complaints about apartheid seriously....and neither should anyone else.


A foreign country in complete political control of the U.S. - You're happy about this?

Who said that?

It's just common sense....

Allying with Israel...
Pros- a regional partner who allows us to project power and influence throughout the entire Middle East, who trades with US favorably, and shares intelligence that is highly valued and otherwise difficult to obtain.
Cons- we have some antisemites who cry and whine about being allied with them.

Allying with Palestine....
Pros- .....there's literally no upside to allying with Palestine. They suck foreign aid from US which they use to arm terrorists.
Cons- imagine funding your enemies and all the problems that leads to...

That's why it doesn't matter who gets elected. People may feel strongly sympathetic to the people of Palestine before they get elected, but once they get elected, they have a duty to do what is best for the people of the US.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Because it kills everyone around the target and not just the target.

But it does kill the target.

Because people can't feed themselves without farms.

Oh I'm sure those farms will get replanted eventually....when there's peace in the region.


Because the only reason to bulldoze a cemetery is to carry out an ethnic cleansing.

An ethnic cleansing of the dead? The dead aren't an ethnicity lol.

There's all sorts of possible reasons...it could be mined for example. Graves would easily hide landmines.


The only ones who do that is Israel.
View attachment 347706

Propaganda.



Any sources that aren't biased?


Hamas shouldn't torture its prisoners either but Hamas isn't known for torturing prisoners - Israel is.




Real shame... but it's war after all.

To allow people to eat.

Well Gaza is the size of Washington DC roughly....people should focus on fleeing and not stop for snacks.


Not a mistake - done on purpose.

Empty claim.


No evidence of this.

20. Israel shouldn't lie about military bases under hospitals.

I can't tell if this is a joke or if you're horribly uninformed.

There's a ton of evidence of military bases under hospitals since before the current conflict....for decades now.

This is old news....a well established fact. If you want evidence, I can provide it, unlike your claims about universities.

Because they feed people.

See above.


Because they provide fresh drinking water.

Again....when fleeing a war zone, don't stop for snacks.

For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

NIV

Cool story. I'm an atheist.



Because it prevents the spread of disease.

So does fleeing a war zone.


What evidence do you have that she's Hamas?
View attachment 347707

Who is she?

They are being murdered in their homes.

They're shooting at Israelis.

Read what you wrote. Israel's apartheid government prevents this from happening.

Gaza shares a border with Egypt.

What evidence do you have that they were hiding Hamas fighters?

Who are they?




I already have. You should follow your own advice.

No....you haven't.


Factually incorrect.

The terrorists who committed this atrocity are the only ones denying the details.



Wrong. This is Gaza prewar.
View attachment 347709

Cute. Did you throw a black and white filter on a color photo to make it look worse than it is? Or is that photo so old that they didn't have color back then?

I used color photos from the last 10 years. Calling Gaza a "concentration camp" is an insult to actual people in actual concentration camps across the world throughout history. They are suffering real oppression....not the recklessly exaggerated claims of Palestinians.






That's where I get most of my information.

You're literally linking middle east Arab news sources and Hamas propaganda.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I think that is a poor approach to history, like suggesting truth in substance can be gleaned from factoids.

Well I feel safe in saying that the current conflict wouldn't have happened without October 7th.

The strongest evidence I have for this are the roughly 40,000 rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from Gaza over the period of roughly 10 years from 2012-2022. Although these attacks did kill some people, damage some property, and occasionally result in raids on Hamas terrorist hideouts....these were small-scale events.


If as you and the Prime Minister of Israel contend the atrocities of the 7th of October 2023 are the root cause of this particular war, surely it is reasonable to assume that one might want to investigate what were the causes that resulted in those events.

Ok...



The region has been dominated by empires between the two periods of self-rule by Israel - the 75 years of the Davidic Kingdom and the 75 years of the Secular Democracy. The Jews have lived in a land subjected for some of that time but for most of the time in exile and diaspora.

Although jews enjoyed success in the height of the Ottoman Empire, they could never be more than second class citizens in any Islamic nation. During the waning centuries of the Ottoman Empire, European merchants and emissaries would note the normalized oppression and scapegoating of jews that would eventually become commonplace in European nations just a century or two later.


The Palestinians are not intruders but rather the people who have tilled the soil and made their homes here.

I don't think anyone is claiming otherwise....

What's more important is that the Palestinians recognized the Ottoman Empire as the sovereign rulers of the land they now claim as their own.

Now, the Ottoman Empire is best described as a theocratic feudal monarchy. They are not a democracy. The people of Palestine knew this and did not claim any right of self determination. This means that when the Ottoman Empire ceded the land to the British and French (as they did with multiple other lands now considered middle eastern nations)....there's no real dispute that it was indeed British land.

Were the British obligated to consult the Palestinians before deciding what to do with the land? No. When the British began selling large tracts of this land to Jewish settlers....the Palestinians began acting belligerent. It's not that they had homes, towns, or farms of their own on these lands....they didn't. They simply still held the widely antisemitic views found throughout the late Ottoman Empire. Although the post WW2 immigration period saw the most Jewish settlers in recent history....the pre WW2 period also saw a large influx, particularly as nations like Jordan and Lebanon and Syria became more stable and decided to cast out their own Jewish populations. As the Jewish population grew and they began to create their own state....problems with the local Arabs came to a head, and the first 2 state solution was proposed (which resulted in the first war between the two groups).

Now....does that seem like a more fair accounting of the start of this whole conflict?

If not...what would you like to add?

If so...why was any of that necessary to explain what started the current war?

No doubt one of the source texts for that is found in Genesis 17, where God is speaking to Abraham

(7) I will establish my covenant between me and you, and your offspring after you throughout their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. (8) And I will give to you, and to your offspring after you, the land where you are now an alien, all the land of Canaan, for a perpetual holding; and I will be their God.’​

The offspring of Abraham that we know about include
  • Ishmael (by Hagar)
  • Isaac (by Sarah)
  • Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah (by Kenurah)
It seems to me that claims of exclusivity of ownership/possession of the land are a more modern invention.

The approach taken by Lord Balfour which ultimately led to the Balfour Declaration was designed to discriminate against the Palestinian people, and this was redoubled by UN Security Council Resolution 242.

During the troubles in Ireland, one of the sayings that did the rounds was "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" It probably has some resonance in the current conflict as well.

I don't really care what reasons the Jewish people claim for creating a state any more than I care about the claims of the Palestinians and their beliefs of Islam being destined to rule over Jews and Christians in a unified caliphate.

I'm an atheist so I don't give weight to either claim.
 
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MartyF

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You have multiple Jewish students being treated like dogs on the campuses they pay tens of thousands of dollars a semester to attend...and university administrators doing nothing about it. You have student protesters not only threatening Jewish students . . .
How about 1st hand video evidence?
First video, people a clearly seen walking around less than 20 feet away. He is not being treated like a dog or being threatened.

Second video, a trust fund baby throws a hissy fit because he isn't allowed to harass and threaten Jewish students on campus. Yep, the guy in that video wants to ban the Jewish Voice for Peace and calls Jews Nazi's and terrorists - his own students BTW. What does he care. He doesn't need a job - he's a trust fund baby from a father who got all his money from Uncle Sam.
Plenty more where that came from...antisemitic scum treating Jewish students who have nothing to do with the conflict like 2nd class citizens. Real nazi tactics here.
According to police sources, there were several NYPD officers inside the school since the protest began and during the incident no students were physically harmed, and no property was damaged.

“There were no direct threats, there was no damage, and there was no danger to any students in that school. Our cops were there all day,” Chief of Patrol John Chell said.

So, you got a cap gun full of blanks. Lot's of noise - nothing to support your arguement.

(BTW, forum rules dictate that you summarize videos.)
Why? It's not the Likud party chanting it on these campuses. It's Hamas supporters. Let's educate you about what Hamas means by "from the river to the sea"...
You're welcome to read anytime you wish.
"December 2012, Khaled Mashaal, a leader in exile, reflected the traditional Hamas hardline, “The state will come from resistance, not negotiation. Liberation first, then statehood. Palestine is ours from the river to the sea and from the south to the north,” he said in a speech. “There will be no concession on any inch of the land. We will never recognize the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation, and therefore there is no legitimacy for Israel… We will free Jerusalem inch by inch, stone by stone. Israel has no right to be in Jerusalem.”

Perhaps they mean some sort of peaceful attempt to share the land with the Jewish people?


The charter views the jihad (holy war) as the way to take all of "Palestine" from the Jews and to destroy the State of Israel, and Hamas's terrorist attacks are seen as links in the jihad chain carried out during the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Article 15 states that "the jihad to liberate ‘Palestine' is the personal duty" of every Muslim, an idea expounded by ‘Abdallah ‘Azzam.
Israeli supporters obviously disagree with God about "Don't Steal."

The Palestinian people demand the right to return and freedom to worship as they wish. In order for this to happen, the Israeli occupation has to end. Just like the South has to be defeated in the Civil War in order for slavery to end. Very violent people like Israeli supporters see the world as a zero-sum game. The ending of apartheid and freedom for Palestinians does not mean a genocide of Jews.
I already looked...and like you, I couldn't find anything.

If you had any evidence of your claims (like I produced above) you would have posted it.

Much like these protesters, you appear to be making things up about these colleges to justify the hatred of Jewish people.
:D

Oh, this is sad . . . you resort to yet more personal ad hominem.

You and me. I pointed out that Palestinians have more rights in Israel than Israelis do in Palestine. You didn't deny it because you know it's true.
This never happened. There is an entire post of mine, you didn't reply to. I'm assuming, using your logic, that you acceded to all my points in that post? No, that's silly.

As many Israeli supporters point out, there is no Palestine at the moment. So, your argument is nonsensical. Here a better question,

Do Palestinians have the same rights as Israelis in Israel? The answer is no. Are Palestinians divided into groups? The answer is yes.

The following video is a primer on apartheid in Israel.
Now...if you believe that Israel is still an apartheid state, then by the same logic, Palestine is a far worse apartheid state.

This is why I don't take your complaints about apartheid seriously....and neither should anyone else.
Once again, everything is occupied by Israel.
Who said that?

It's just common sense....

Allying with Israel...
Pros- a regional partner who allows us to project power and influence throughout the entire Middle East, who trades with US favorably, and shares intelligence that is highly valued and otherwise difficult to obtain.
Cons- we have some antisemites who cry and whine about being allied with them.

Allying with Palestine....
Pros- .....there's literally no upside to allying with Palestine. They suck foreign aid from US which they use to arm terrorists.
Cons- imagine funding your enemies and all the problems that leads to...

That's why it doesn't matter who gets elected. People may feel strongly sympathetic to the people of Palestine before they get elected, but once they get elected, they have a duty to do what is best for the people of the US.
I'm an atheist so I don't give weight to either claim.
This explains a lot - thank you.
 
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Philip_B

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Now....does that seem like a more fair accounting of the start of this whole conflict?

If not...what would you like to add?

If so...why was any of that necessary to explain what started the current war?
No. The Ottoman Empire did not cede, the League of Nations mandated the territory. Britain's real interest was the Suez Canal and the Trade Route to India, the Jewell in the Crown of the British Empire.

I'm an atheist so I don't give weight to either claim.
Clearly, you don't. Yet that too is part of history, that helps us understand how we got here. Of course the real question remains, where too from here?
 
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Ana the Ist

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No. The Ottoman Empire did not cede, the League of Nations mandated the territory.

Treaty of Lausanne....signed by the delegates from Turkey.


Without any such treaty those territories would still be contested by Turkey. They aren't, because the remnants of the Ottoman Empire recognized the loss of those territories as valid/legitimate.

Now, do we agree that the result was British sovereignty over the lands of Palestine or not?

If not...I'll need you to explain why.

Edit- and don't give me this "where do we go from here nonsense like you weren't just complaining about me not acknowledging the history. I'm acknowledging the history. We need to go over who had sovereignty over the land or you may keep trying to paint this as some sort of injustice.

 
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Ana the Ist

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First video, people a clearly seen walking around less than 20 feet away.

Perhaps they aren't Jewish.



He is not being treated like a dog or being threatened.

He's being denied access to a campus building that he paid to get access to.

As you clearly stated....other students aren't being treated that way.



Second video, a trust fund baby throws a hissy fit because he isn't allowed to harass and threaten Jewish students on campus.

He's a professor who is being denied access. You can make up whatever backstory makes you feel comfortable but you clearly sympathize with the terrorists and antisemites.

According to police sources,

Provide a link.

Sorry but I won't be taking your word on it since you have a tendency to fabricate motives and intentions.

(BTW, forum rules dictate that you summarize videos.)

That's for the OP, though it might also apply to particularly long videos.

You're welcome to read anytime you wish.

Ahem...

Therefore, Columbia University is, too, complicit in Israel's ethnic cleansing project by
investing in the companies that enable illegal settlements. Although we are not made privy to
many of the University’s investment decisions, Columbia is indirectly invested in at least some
of these companies: Columbia owns shares in two iShares Exchange-Traded Funds, managed by
asset manager BlackRock, which invests in Hyundai and Caterpillar Inc..41, 42 As of its 2022
990-PF filing, Columbia holds $31,288 worth of shares in the iShares Core MSCI Emerging
Markets ETF43 and $277,999 worth of shares in iShares Intermediate Term Corporate Bond ETF.
Both the Intermediate Term Corporate Bond ETF and the Emerging Markets ETF portfolio
contain Hyundai, while Caterpillar Inc. is listed in the Intermediate Term Corporate Bond ETF
portfolio.44 According to the Securities and Exchange Commission’s 13-F form filed on
November 14, 2023, Columbia holds nearly $5 million worth of shares in Airbnb Inc.45 We note
that Columbia likely has many more indirect investments in companies supporting Israeli
settlements, but most investments are not readily available in public documents

I highlighted the relevant parts. The students have no idea what Columbia is invested in beyond some companies that provide construction equipment and Blackrock lol which literally invests in everything as a capital investment group.

You made claims about funding weapons and arms. Do you have a page number that backs up that claim? I didn't see any arms or weapons investments.

Israeli supporters obviously disagree with God about "Don't Steal."

Steal what?

The Palestinian people demand the right to return and freedom to worship as they wish.

Right of return sounds made up...and as far as I know, Muslims are the only ones who stomp on the religious freedoms of others...Jews don't seem to be bothered with any religious beliefs.


In order for this to happen, the Israeli occupation has to end.

Occupation of what? Land they bought from it's owners? Or land they fought for and won?



Just like the South has to be defeated in the Civil War in order for slavery to end.

The south was defeated. Also...slavery still exists in places like Africa, India, and China.

Very violent people like Israeli supporters see the world as a zero-sum game. The ending of apartheid and freedom for Palestinians does not mean a genocide of Jews.

There's no apartheid. Apartheid is a racial or ethnic segregation. There's plenty of Arabs in Israel. The only people imposing Apartheid are the Palestinians.



See above. They invested in Blackrock. Other than that...it looks like Hyundai and Kia are the biggest culprits.

If none of these protesters have ever driven or rented a Korean vehicle I'll grant they may have a point. Seems unlikely though lol.


This never happened. There is an entire post of mine, you didn't reply to.

Which post?

If I missed it on accident I apologize.

I'm assuming, using your logic,

If you were using my logic you'd explain what race is banned from Israel?


As many Israeli supporters point out, there is no Palestine at the moment.

Then what's this occupation you keep complaining about?


Do Palestinians have the same rights as Israelis in Israel? The answer is no.

What rights don't they have?


The following video is a primer on apartheid in Israel.

Once again, everything is occupied by Israel.

Lol ok...how many Israeli Jews lived in Gaza prior to October 7th?

Let's take a look...


Of these, 2.16 million Palestinians lived in the West Bank, 1.84 million lived in Israel, and 1.79 million lived in the Gaza Strip.

So we want to figure out how many non-arabs live in Gaza...fortunately, from the same link we have....

1,795,183 Arabs live in the Gaza Strip,


Gaza is entirely Arab. Remarkable that these people are accusing anyone of apartheid. I'd say they're hypocrites...but I'm certain they know they're blowing smoke up the skirts of college students. After all, they also claim to be living in concentration camps.

If the population of Arabs in Israel exceeds 0% (hint, it does) then nobody should be taking any charges of apartheid seriously.



This explains a lot - thank you.

No thanks needed.
 
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Philip_B

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Treaty of Lausanne....signed by the delegates from Turkey.


Without any such treaty those territories would still be contested by Turkey. They aren't, because the remnants of the Ottoman Empire recognized the loss of those territories as valid/legitimate.

Now, do we agree that the result was British sovereignty over the lands of Palestine or not?

If not...I'll need you to explain why.

Edit- and don't give me this "where do we go from here nonsense like you weren't just complaining about me not acknowledging the history. I'm acknowledging the history. We need to go over who had sovereignty over the land or you may keep trying to paint this as some sort of injustice.

San Remo Resolution – 25 April 1920​

It was agreed –

(a)
To accept the terms of the Mandates Article as given below with reference to Palestine, on the understanding that there was inserted in the procès-verbal an undertaking by the Mandatory Power that this would not involve the surrender of the rights hitherto enjoyed by the non-Jewish communities in Palestine; this undertaking not to refer to the question of the religious protectorate of France, which had been settled earlier in the previous afternoon by the undertaking given by the French Government that they recognized this protectorate as being at an end.

(b) that the terms of the Mandates Article should be as follows:

The High Contracting Parties agree that Syria and Mesopotamia shall, in accordance with the fourth paragraph of Article 22, Part I (Covenant of the League of Nations), be provisionally recognized as independent States, subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The boundaries of the said States will be determined, and the selection of the Mandatories made, by the Principal Allied Powers.

The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory, to be selected by the said Powers. The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on the 8th [2nd] November, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

The Treaty of Lausanne - 24 July 1924

The Treaty of Lausanne (French: Traité de Lausanne, Turkish: Lozan Antlaşması) is a peace treaty negotiated during the Lausanne Conference of 1922–23 and signed in the Palais de Rumine in Lausanne, Switzerland, on 24 July 1923. The treaty officially resolved the conflict that had initially arisen between the Ottoman Empire and the Allied French Republic, British Empire, Kingdom of Italy, Empire of Japan, Kingdom of Greece, Kingdom of Serbia, and the Kingdom of Romania since the outset of World War I.[The original text of the treaty is in English and French. It emerged as a second attempt at peace after the failed and unratified Treaty of Sèvres, which had sought to partition Ottoman territories. The earlier treaty, signed in 1920, was later rejected by the Turkish National Movement which actively opposed its terms. As a result of the Greco-Turkish War, İzmir was reclaimed, and the Armistice of Mudanya was signed in October 1922. This armistice provided for the exchange of Greek-Turkish populations and allowed unrestricted civilian, non-military passage through the Turkish Straits.

Perhaps that might help
 
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ralliann

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San Remo Resolution – 25 April 1920​

It was agreed –

(a)
To accept the terms of the Mandates Article as given below with reference to Palestine, on the understanding that there was inserted in the procès-verbal an undertaking by the Mandatory Power that this would not involve the surrender of the rights hitherto enjoyed by the non-Jewish communities in Palestine; this undertaking not to refer to the question of the religious protectorate of France, which had been settled earlier in the previous afternoon by the undertaking given by the French Government that they recognized this protectorate as being at an end.

(b) that the terms of the Mandates Article should be as follows:

The High Contracting Parties agree that Syria and Mesopotamia shall, in accordance with the fourth paragraph of Article 22, Part I (Covenant of the League of Nations), be provisionally recognized as independent States, subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The boundaries of the said States will be determined, and the selection of the Mandatories made, by the Principal Allied Powers.

The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory, to be selected by the said Powers. The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on the 8th [2nd] November, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

The Treaty of Lausanne - 24 July 1924

The Treaty of Lausanne (French: Traité de Lausanne, Turkish: Lozan Antlaşması) is a peace treaty negotiated during the Lausanne Conference of 1922–23 and signed in the Palais de Rumine in Lausanne, Switzerland, on 24 July 1923. The treaty officially resolved the conflict that had initially arisen between the Ottoman Empire and the Allied French Republic, British Empire, Kingdom of Italy, Empire of Japan, Kingdom of Greece, Kingdom of Serbia, and the Kingdom of Romania since the outset of World War I.[The original text of the treaty is in English and French. It emerged as a second attempt at peace after the failed and unratified Treaty of Sèvres, which had sought to partition Ottoman territories. The earlier treaty, signed in 1920, was later rejected by the Turkish National Movement which actively opposed its terms. As a result of the Greco-Turkish War, İzmir was reclaimed, and the Armistice of Mudanya was signed in October 1922. This armistice provided for the exchange of Greek-Turkish populations and allowed unrestricted civilian, non-military passage through the Turkish Straits.

Perhaps that might help
No it does not. Israel won land by war, because they were attacked.
 
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Philip_B

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No it does not. Isreal won land through war because they were attacked.
I am going to presume you mean Israel. I have never questioned whether they were attacked or not. Aside from that I am not sure you understood the point I was making.
 
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This is an oversimplification and rightly could be thought of as propaganda. The decision about where you start the discussion will determine where you end up. And to be clear I am firmly against the actions of Hamas on October 7 2023.
Are you trying to tell us rhat Israel would have invaded Gaza to destroy Hamas when they did even if the invasion on October 7 wouldn't have occurred?
 
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Fighting Flares Anew in Gaza as Hamas Regroups

The U.S. secretary of state warned that Israel’s victories over Hamas may not be “sustainable.”

As the Israeli military stepped up pressure on what it calls Hamas’s last stronghold in Gaza, fighting elsewhere in the Palestinian enclave on Sunday led to warnings that the militants might remain a force for a long time to come.

Close-quarters ground combat between Hamas fighters and Israeli troops raged in parts of northern Gaza over the weekend.

It has become a familiar scenario in the Gaza Strip over the course of the seven-month war: After pitched battles, Israel declares an area clear of Hamas, only to return after the militants reconstitute their forces.

On Sunday, Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken said he was concerned that Israel’s failure to lay down a template for the governance of Gaza meant that its victories might not be “sustainable” and would be followed by “chaos, by anarchy and ultimately by Hamas again.”

Palestine TV, a network affiliated with the Palestinian Authority, a rival to Hamas based in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, broadcast footage that it said showed civilians, many of them women and children, fleeing northern Gaza. Some were on foot, while others were on bicycles, in cars or piled onto carts drawn by donkeys.

“I am deeply distressed by the fast-deteriorating conditions in Gaza,” the United Nations’ human rights chief, Volker Türk, said in a statement about the fighting in the north.
 
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