Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

Zaha Torte · May 9, 2024

2PhiloVoid said:
I'm an existentialist, and for the usual sorts of philosophical reasons.

But, my outlook isn't what this thread is about, it's about how we think that the world is presently slouching further in its S&G brand lingerie.

It is bound to happen the further we drift from the Lord Jesus Christ.

stevevw · May 9, 2024

Hans Blaster said:
Maybe it's just because I don't remember the golden age you look back to, but society never made a "big deal" about Sunday worship. Church was something many people did and most people didn't go to work then. (Though, in my area there were people who worked every day.)

It wasn't so much a golden age but more a social norm that gradually deminished. Sunday was on peoples mind because it was regarded as a day of worship. The fact that society toyed with laws and restrictions around Sunday made it a big deal. That norm gradually changed so that it wasn't such a big deal anymore.

It wasn't about every single person gping along all the time but the fact that the big deal about Sunday influenced our social norms because it was part of the majority belief.

Hans Blaster said:
Don't be so sure about that. The recent spate of book banning laws and anti-drag ordinances that have sprung up recently is various places show how easy it is for something beyond the norm to be enacted when the momentary political fever strikes.

Thats completely different. Your projecting how we think today back into a time when the vast majority (80 to 90%) were Christains and so it was a natural progression that Christian values seeped into social norms.

Todays political climate in a Post Modernist society is all over the place and democracy is breaking down. Society is no longer united in their values and ideology so that leaves open a void to be filled with whatever idea ideologues want to push in the name of morals and values. Its relative and based on identity and not reality.

When you reject the truth. leave it open for relative interpretation you also reject reality. The new social norms are self created relativist feelings and senitments about truth and morals and not based on anything higher than the individual and society itself which can unite people.

Hans Blaster said:
I'm not sure there is any point to this. These claims are all just vague notions without quantitative measure.

I have given some support for this such as the fact that society back then was predominately Christian. Do you honestly believe that in such a dominant Christian context that the importance of Sunday was not on the social conscience. This is just one aspect that the Christian world view influence the public square. Any idea or belief that predominates thought will be expressed in social norms.

Hans Blaster said:
Sunday was always sacred. It is when the NFL played, though that has been diluted by Monday Night, Thursday Night, and even saturday football. Sigh.

Lol yeah thats another religion that can dominate society. Ours is rugby league but soccor is a pretty big world religion. Very similar when two waring teams meet for a local game. The whole town has to lockdown while the opposing teams fans enter and leave the town. They are very passionate and tribal.

Hans Blaster said:
Working more to make ends meet has nothing to do with any decline in Christianity.

I was talking about how Sunday went from mostly not working to gradually becoming more a work day or an ordinary day of the week without any religious significance.

But in some ways working more to make ends meet is a part of why people don'y pay much attention to religion. Christianity has become more conformed to the secular idea of modern life, more commercialised. So in that sense working more and all the white noise of modern life and all its stresses and compliances does distract from Christianity, from the spiritual aspect of life in a general sense.

Hans Blaster said:
I have no idea what "Salvos" are, but rewriting current tunes to be gospel songs sounds awful. (If you want good gospel songs, they exist. Don't ruin perfectly good pop music. Ugh.)

The Salvo's are the Salvation Army. They are known for rolling their sleeves up, and getting out into society to help the needy. Saved my life anyway. They are probably most known as being in the war trenches during the war helping the soldiers or as a charity during the 19th century that began social welfare by working the slums.

They also used the classic gospel songs but being a young guy I didn't know most of them. But did recognise the tunes of some of their songs because they were contemporary but instead the words related to Jesus and the message of salvation. This was revolutionary back then as it allowed many people to relate rather than the usual boring old repeated hymes.

But now its gone too far where some churches are almost Hollywood productions lol. They have sold their soul to satan like Robert Johnson lol.

Hans Blaster said:
Fellowship was irrelevant.

Its interesting you say that. I would imagine if the gathering was something you related to or caught your attention and interest it would be a completely different experience. I guess it comes down to how your see the world, beliefs of course, what your open to believe and invest in.

But the good thing about Christian fellowship if your into it is that it will always be positive, inspiring, life meaning and changing, problem sharing, helping others, hope ect all those positive things which help people in life.

Because its organised its almost a school of life where people are repeatedly reminded to live a good life. The words are repeated to love others as yourself, that your worth a great deal and that tends to rub off. Put it this way its better than people being on the streets and getting into trouble or wanting to end their life because of no hope in this world.

Hans Blaster · May 9, 2024

Zaha Torte said:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches and believes that God's Priesthood Authority that the Lord Jesus Christ had given to His Apostles was taken from the Earth after their rejection and subsequent deaths.

This is when the world entered into what they call the "Great Apostasy" - the "famine" mentioned by Amos and the "falling away" mentioned by Paul - when men were being "tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine" because there were no authorized servants of God upon the Earth to lead them.

This is why they believe that God's Priesthood Authority - as well as "many plain and precious truths" which had been lost due to the corruption of Man - needed to be Restored to the Earth.

This was done by both the Father and the Son when They appeared to the boy Joseph Smith Jr in response to his prayer about which Christian sect he should join.

He claimed that the Lord Jesus Christ instructed him to join none of them for "all their creeds were an abomination in his sight" and that "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

This is why the Latter-day Saints (LDS) refer to themselves as Restorationist Christians - as opposed to any type of Protestant - because they believe they have a direct line to the Lord Jesus Christ through His personal ministrations in these latter-days - and He has Restored His Gospel and His authority to the Earth.

The LDS Church does not adhere to the doctrine of the Trinity (they believe that that was proven incorrect the moment both the Father and the Son appeared to the boy prophet - which they call his First Vision - as well as the fact that the scriptures do not teach it) - and they also hold to a Father-Son relationship.

They believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one Eternal God - although they are all separate and distinct individual Beings.

This idea can be confusing at first - but they also believe and teach that the term "God" can and has been used to describe other beings - such as angels, various men and even false deities in the scriptures - and determined that it is a title for a position of authority more than a name.

Therefore - even though the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are separate and distinct individual Beings - they hold the same office, nature, purpose and spirit - they are perfect.

Just like how a family may have multiple members in it - all are individuals, but they share the same name and similar characteristics - yet they are still only the one family.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all the same "God" (family) and the ultimate desire of the Lord Jesus Christ is for all of Mankind to become "one" with the Father - just as He is one with the Father.

Meaning - He wants us all to partake of His goodness - to have faith in Him - rely on Him - submit our wills to the Father like He did - so that we all can become more like the Father - perfect and glorious - thus becoming "one" with Him.

I'm sorry if you thought I was asking about restoration theology. I'm not interested in theology.

Zaha Torte said:
I know these explanations were unsolicited - and I apologize for the length - but if you ever have any questions about the LDS doctrine or history - hit me up.

God bless.

I'm good. I do know a little bit of Mormon doctrine and a bit more of Mormon history.

Hans Blaster · May 10, 2024

stevevw said:
The Salvo's are the Salvation Army. They are known for rolling their sleeves up, and getting out into society to help the needy. Saved my life anyway. They are probably most known as being in the war trenches during the war helping the soldiers or as a charity during the 19th century that began social welfare by working the slums.

Oh, those guys. Here I thought they were a protestant church with weird outfits bugging me while I do my Xmas shopping.

stevevw said:
They also used the classic gospel songs but being a young guy I didn't know most of them. But did recognise the tunes of some of their songs because they were contemporary but instead the words related to Jesus and the message of salvation. This was revolutionary back then as it allowed many people to relate rather than the usual boring old repeated hymes.

But now its gone too far where some churches are almost Hollywood productions lol. They have sold their soul to satan like Robert Johnson lol.

I've seen stuff from those churches you speak of. Their stuff isn't good music. Robert Johnson was.

stevevw · May 10, 2024

Zaha Torte said:
The main ones that I see are wars, rumors of wars, natural disasters and the push by so many for a one-world government.

Yeah I think the 'wars and rumours of wars seems relevant. There has always been wars but its this perhaps normalisation of wars that are happening where it seems there is always a conflict thats going to happen and there never seems to be a sense of peace for any time. One war blends into another and inbetween wars there is always talk of more wars.

For todays generation this is all they have frown up in, a world always talking and worried about wars and potential wars. No onder so many young people have mental problems and are freaked out about their future.

Zaha Torte · May 10, 2024

Hans Blaster said:
I'm sorry if you thought I was asking about restoration theology. I'm not interested in theology.

I'm good. I do know a little bit of Mormon doctrine and a bit more of Mormon history.

What brings you to CF - if you don't mind my asking?

And Han shot first.

stevevw · May 10, 2024

Hans Blaster said:
Oh, those guys. Here I thought they were a protestant church with weird outfits bugging me while I do my Xmas shopping.

No that would be one of their Red Shield appeals. They have that maracas shaped money holder which they sometimes shake for donations. Or a plain old money box. But that is part of who they are getting out in the community and raising money and helping practically.

Hans Blaster said:
I've seen stuff from those churches you speak of. Their stuff isn't good music. Robert Johnson was.

Well if the songs are made to contemparary music then they can't be that bad. At least the people know the tunes lol. They can hum along. The Salvos are most famous for their big band music, mostly brass instruments, drums and tamborines. They use to stand on street corners playing their music and even in back streets in neighbourhoods. A bit of big band in the back streets lol.

Hans Blaster · May 10, 2024

Zaha Torte said:
What brings you to CF - if you don't mind my asking?

Pseudoscience. I fell down a rabbit hole.

Zaha Torte said:
And Han shot first.

I was there.

Hans Blaster · May 10, 2024

stevevw said:
No that would be one of their Red Shield appeals. They have that maracas shaped money holder which they sometimes shake for donations. Or a plain old money box. But that is part of who they are getting out in the community and raising money and helping practically.

I've never seen or heard of them doing anything but soliciting. Apparently they also ran a Christian youth group for you. That's hardly charity.

stevevw said:
Well if the songs are made to contemparary music then they can't be that bad. At least the people know the tunes lol. They can hum along.

Do I need to post the "Hank Hill" reply?

stevevw said:
The Salvos are most famous for their big band music, mostly brass instruments, drums and tamborines. They use to stand on street corners playing their music and even in back streets in neighbourhoods. A bit of big band in the back streets lol.

Maybe they're more active in your country. I've never heard of that.

Zaha Torte · May 10, 2024

Hans Blaster said:
Pseudoscience. I fell down a rabbit hole.

What kind of pseudoscience?

That rabbit hole is looking pretty interesting.

Hans Blaster said:
I was there.

You're damn right you were.

But where were you on Starkiller Base?

That lil bastard needed a hole in the head!

BCP1928 · May 10, 2024

stevevw said:
It wasn't so much a golden age but more a social norm that gradually deminished. Sunday was on peoples mind because it was regarded as a day of worship. The fact that society toyed with laws and restrictions around Sunday made it a big deal. That norm gradually changed so that it wasn't such a big deal anymore.

It wasn't about every single person gping along all the time but the fact that the big deal about Sunday influenced our social norms because it was part of the majority belief.

Thats completely different. Your projecting how we think today back into a time when the vast majority (80 to 90%) were Christains and so it was a natural progression that Christian values seeped into social norms.

Todays political climate in a Post Modernist society is all over the place and democracy is breaking down. Society is no longer united in their values and ideology so that leaves open a void to be filled with whatever idea ideologues want to push in the name of morals and values. Its relative and based on identity and not reality.

When you reject the truth. leave it open for relative interpretation you also reject reality. The new social norms are self created relativist feelings and senitments about truth and morals and not based on anything higher than the individual and society itself which can unite people.

Yes, conformity to the strict gender roles prescribed by Christian culture is being abandoned as inappropriate and unviable. If people who no longer adhere to those roles are finding themselves separated from Christ because of it then it's the fault of people like you. Blaming it on the Woke Monster just makes you look weak.

BCP1928 · May 10, 2024

Hans Blaster said:
I've never seen or heard of them doing anything but soliciting. Apparently they also ran a Christian youth group for you. That's hardly charity.

Do I need to post the "Hank Hill" reply?

Maybe they're more active in your country. I've never heard of that.

The Salvation Army runs food pantries, provides utility bill assistance to the poor, hosts youth groups and undertakes disaster relief projects, often in coordination with the Red Cross. Things like that. Theologically, they are Fundamentalist Protestant but they have not taken part in the culture wars to any great extent, preferring to occupy themselves with good works. On the whole I think they do more good than harm and are exceptional in that regard compared to other Christian organizations.
As to the brass band thing, don't forget that the Brits and their offspring around the world have a fondness for brass bands as a form of popular entertainment which is largely absent in the US.

Hans Blaster · May 10, 2024

BCP1928 said:
As to the brass band thing, don't forget that the Brits and their offspring around the world have a fondness for brass bands as a form of popular entertainment which is largely absent in the US.

Do they? I try to stay away from the Brits and their offspring.

There is one part of American culture that is quite popular and brass bands are associate with it -- College and HS athletics. I wouldn't necessarily call those bands "popular", but they are rather ubiquitous.

Hans Blaster · May 10, 2024

Zaha Torte said:
What kind of pseudoscience?

A nonsense model for cosmology. The local proponent has apparently left the board, but I won't risk attracting his attention...

Zaha Torte said:
That rabbit hole is looking pretty interesting.

Not really.

stevevw · May 12, 2024

Hans Blaster said:
I've never seen or heard of them doing anything but soliciting. Apparently they also ran a Christian youth group for you. That's hardly charity.

Not a Christian youth group but a rehab and hostel. They have a few hostels and rehabs and other support services for the disadvantaged. Help with cloths, blankets, household items and food and all that stuff.

Hans Blaster said:
Do I need to post the "Hank Hill" reply?

Never watched it. I had to look up the name lol. So I am not sure what you mean.

Hans Blaster said:
Maybe they're more active in your country. I've never heard of that.

Evidently it originated with one member and his sons playing some brass instruments at a local sermon and Willian Booth the founder like it and it became a part of their street work.

stevevw · May 12, 2024

BCP1928 said:
Yes, conformity to the strict gender roles prescribed by Christian culture is being abandoned as inappropriate and unviable. If people who no longer adhere to those roles are finding themselves separated from Christ because of it then it's the fault of people like you. Blaming it on the Woke Monster just makes you look weak.

Abandoned as inappropriate and unviable. What that a male cannot magically become a female or human cannot become a furry or whatever subjective identity they feel or believe they are. Thats not a Christian thing its a factual thing, an objective fact.

The idea of subjective identity becoming the new measure of reality even trumping objective reality is a modern mental phenomena and distorted thinking just as much as saying the subjective reality an anorexic patient who believes they are too fat when they are grossly underweight is reality.

This ideology has been exposed as you say as "inappropriate and unviable" and is now being exposed for the unreality it is. This is not a Christian determination but a 'reality thing' and supported by non Christians and even those on the Left.

This goes back to when I mentioned about how in a Post Modernist society truth and objective reality have been rejected for self referential truths such as subjective identity and moral relativity. The identity becomes the god of worship.

BCP1928 · May 12, 2024

stevevw said:
Abandoned as inappropriate and unviable. What that a male cannot magically become a female or human cannot become a furry or whatever subjective identity they feel or believe they are. Thats not a Christian thing its a factual thing, an objective fact.

The idea of subjective identity becoming the new measure of reality even trumping objective reality is a modern mental phenomena and distorted thinking

A person's subjective identity is real to that person, just as yours is to you. Why should they have to hide it because it doesn't agree with the subjective identity you think a Christian should have?

stevevw said:
just as much as saying the subjective reality an anorexic patient who believes they are too fat when they are grossly underweight is reality.

Yes, but anorexia is not about gender conformity so you are able to deal with anorexic people without regarding them as an existential threat to Western Civilization.

stevevw said:
This ideology has been exposed as you say as "inappropriate and unviable" and is now being exposed for the unreality it is. This is not a Christian determination but a 'reality thing' and supported by non Christians and even those on the Left.

This goes back to when I mentioned about how in a Post Modernist society truth and objective reality have been rejected for self referential truths such as subjective identity and moral relativity. The identity becomes the god of worship.

OK, now you can move on to the right-wing talking points about other forms of gender nonconformity--feminism, no-fault divorce, gay marriage, etc.

stevevw · May 12, 2024

BCP1928 said:
A person's subjective identity is real to that person, just as yours is to you. Why should they have to hide it because it doesn't agree with the subjective identity you think a Christian should have?

The real question is why should we allow subjecftive identity to trump biological reality. People can have their subjective identities so long as they don't encroach on our lived reality, on objective reality.

We tried that and it doesn't work, it actually creates more problems and causes clashes between identity groups because obviously if identity is subjective and real and subjective means whatever your subjectibe beliefs create then its going to be different and often in conflict because no two identities will see and believe their reality in the same way.

We already see this conflict in how even the LGBTIQ+ community is in conflict with each other and how identity groups are at war even to the point of violence and antisemetism.

BCP1928 said:
Yes, but anorexia is not about gender conformity so you are able to deal with anorexic people without regarding them as an existential threat to Western Civilization.

Your missing the point. Its the same subjective determination that a person can be self decieved in thinking they are overweight when they are thin is the same as subjective identity. The idea is that the belief about real self is created in the subjective mind and not based on anything real outside the mind is the problem.

Based on this logic whatever a person subjective believes about themselves and the world is factual in the world. But we know that this is the same basis for unreal and delusional beliefs. We don't make subjective determinations about objective reality but rather ground it in the real world.

When we play out these subjective ideas like a male can be a women because they feel that way this is ok for the person. But when we apply it to reality, to real life we find it creates conflicts and actually denies the reality of women. This is agood example of how something subjective is trumping objective reality.

This is no different to religion being pushed on society. Both are not based in reality and both are more about subjective beliefs than facts. The ideology was exposed when inquiries found it was not based in scientific evidence but ideological beliefs.

BCP1928 said:
OK, now you can move on to the right-wing talking points about other forms of gender nonconformity--feminism, no-fault divorce, gay marriage, etc.

No I don't care what others want to do. Well I do but I don't care enough to stop them doing what they want to do so long as they don't tell me what to do. That seems fair.

But ironically what we are actually seeing is that most CHristians have been put in their box and shot down for even expressing their beliefs let alone pushing them. Or most people who just express facts are being shut down.

So its not the Right or Christians or scientists who are pushing any ideology but the Woke who cancel and destroy people, publically shame them for simply expressing their beliefs, the truth or the wrong words when according to their own ideology society should be tolerant and inclusive of all beliefs.

BCP1928 · May 12, 2024

stevevw said:
The real question is why should we allow subjecftive identity to trump biological reality.

But we should allow subjective identity to Trump your idea of what the subjective identity should be with respect to biology.

stevevw said:
People can have their subjective identities so long as they don't encroach on our lived reality, on objective reality.

How can they do that? By encroaching on your belief that there is only one subjective identity appropriate to a particular set of gonads?

stevevw said:
We tried that and it doesn't work, it actually creates more problems and causes clashes between identity groups because obviously if identity is subjective and real and subjective means whatever your subjectibe beliefs create then its going to be different and often in conflict because no two identities will see and believe their reality in the same way.

Our subjective identities are all different. Each of us is unique in that respect.

stevevw said:
We already see this conflict in how even the LGBTIQ+ community is in conflict with each other and how identity groups are at war even to the point of violence and antisemetism.

Your missing the point. Its the same subjective determination that a person can be self decieved in thinking they are overweight when they are thin is the same as subjective identity. The idea is that the belief about real self is created in the subjective mind and not based on anything real outside the mind is the problem.

Based on this logic whatever a person subjective believes about themselves and the world is factual in the world. But we know that this is the same basis for unreal and delusional beliefs. We don't make subjective determinations about objective reality but rather ground it in the real world.

When we play out these subjective ideas like a male can be a women because they feel that way this is ok for the person. But when we apply it to reality, to real life we find it creates conflicts and actually denies the reality of women. This is agood example of how something subjective is trumping objective reality.

You are confounding two different things: Gender dysphoria is a clinical condition, a delusion. The anorexic is suffering from the delusion that he is actually fat. Likewise, the gender dysphoric is suffering from the delusion that he is actually the opposite sex who somehow acquired the wrong gonads. Both of these are clinical conditions requiring clinical diagnosis and intervention. You apparently see the gender dysphoric as an existential threat to society, but not the anorexic. Why is that?

Then you have a person who believes he has the cognitive and emotional identity usually associated with females even though he possesses the gonads of a man. He wants to function socially in the role of a woman. He is not deluded, he knows full well that he is not a biological female. (and vice-versa, of course).
You apparently see these people as an existential threat to society as well. Why is that?

stevevw said:
This is no different to religion being pushed on society. Both are not based in reality and both are more about subjective beliefs than facts. The ideology was exposed when inquiries found it was not based in scientific evidence but ideological beliefs.

No I don't care what others want to do. Well I do but I don't care enough to stop them doing what they want to do so long as they don't tell me what to do. That seems fair.

But ironically what we are actually seeing is that most CHristians have been put in their box and shot down for even expressing their beliefs let alone pushing them. Or most people who just express facts are being shut down.

So its not the Right or Christians or scientists who are pushing any ideology but the Woke who cancel and destroy people, publically shame them for simply expressing their beliefs, the truth or the wrong words when according to their own ideology society should be tolerant and inclusive of all beliefs.

Except for Christians, who are to be excused from having to be tolerant and inclusive because of the objective truth of their beliefs.

Zaha Torte · May 12, 2024

BCP1928 said:
But we should allow subjective identity to Trump your idea of what the subjective identity should be with respect to biology.

You understand that the word "trump" is not a reference to President Trump - right? No need to capitalize it as if it were a proper noun.

Anyways - there is nothing subjective about biology.

BCP1928 said:
How can they do that?

Legislation and policy mainly.

By these methods they have "encroached" on female spaces - robbing them of privacy and exposing them to danger.

They have also robbed various women of awards and accolades - like in women's sports, women's scholarships and grants and there being the first "first 'female' four-star admiral in the Commissioned Corps."

We all saw that Freudian Slip in regard to "Rachel" Levine.

They are also attempting to control and compel speech. Trying to force people to use the incorrect pronouns by means of fines and/or jailtime.

BCP1928 said:
By encroaching on your belief that there is only one subjective identity appropriate to a particular set of gonads?

There is nothing subjective about "gonads".

You either have them or you don't.

BCP1928 said:
Our subjective identities are all different. Each of us is unique in that respect.

Not really.

We are all unique - of course - but all of our identities are made up of a variety of objective criteria.

There are infinite personalities - but only two sexes - and zero "genders".

BCP1928 said:
You are confounding two different things: Gender dysphoria is a clinical condition, a delusion. The anorexic is suffering from the delusion that he is actually fat. Likewise, the gender dysphoric is suffering from the delusion that he is actually the opposite sex who somehow acquired the wrong gonads. Both of these are clinical conditions requiring clinical diagnosis and intervention. You apparently see the gender dysphoric as an existential threat to society, but not the anorexic. Why is that?

Anorexia is not being supported and encouraged by all the powers that be.

The opposite is actually the case with all the "body positivity" pushing obesity on everyone.

Transgenderism is being pushed on all of us - even our young and impressionable children - and it - like obesity - will destroy everyone it ensnares.

BCP1928 said:
Then you have a person who believes he has the cognitive and emotional identity usually associated with females even though he possesses the gonads of a man.

He has zero frame of reference.

A man has no means of knowing what the "cognitive and emotional identity" of a female is and anyone who claims that he does is either lying or delusional.

Just like he does not know the "cognitive and emotional identity" of a horse.

He possesses the "gonads" of a man because he is a man.

BCP1928 said:
He wants to function socially in the role of a woman.

Because he has a sexual fetish.

BCP1928 said:
He is not deluded, he knows full well that he is not a biological female. (and vice-versa, of course).

He is deluded into thinking that he would know what the "cognitive and emotional identity" of a female is.

He is deluded into thinking that it is appropriate for him to express his sexual fetish in front of people in public.

Deluded and perverted. He cannot know those things and he should not do those things.

They are not true or appropriate.

BCP1928 said:
You apparently see these people as an existential threat to society as well. Why is that?

More and more people are identifying as some form of LGHDTV cult nonsense and their ultimate end-goal - whether they are aware of it or not - is the end of our species.

BCP1928 said:
Except for Christians, who are to be excused from having to be tolerant and inclusive because of the objective truth of their beliefs.

Explain this statement.

Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

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