How Vatican II adversely affected life for Catholics in the 21st century

discombobulated1 said:

For some reason, the Catholics I've known are reticent to discuss any dissatisfaction with the Church.

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There are plenty out there such as yourself.

I wonder if many Catholics have learned to disregard Francis

discombobulated1 said:

we should start a group

Catholics Anonymous, maybe?

I would laugh but it's just not funny

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You can call yourselves schismatic.

discombobulated1 said:

It is the fake popes who were/are in schizm

Just because Jesus chooses to stay in His Church (the Real Presence) doesn't mean He approves of what is going on

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we are not concerned about popes in the past. What about you now? Are you in union with Catholic Church or not?

Akita Suggagaki said:

we are not concerned about popes in the past. What about you now? Are you in union with Catholic Church or not?

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Actually, if one examines the biographies of many of the historic Popes one can easily find a surprising number who, relatively speaking, make the current Pope as well as their predecessors since Vatican II look like very positive saints. One does not need to look terribly far to find various Popes who were flagrantly engaged in all sorts of shenanigans. Some of their sexual peccadilloes would make modern-day clerical sex abusers positively blush.

However, as Winston Churchill once sagely observed, those who forget history are very likely to repeat it.

My sense (as a priest in another denomination) is that what you're describing in terms of a change in responsivity from priests, is probably not the fault of Vatican II. Over recent decades, the demands on clergy across the board have grown enormously, the support and resources available have dropped dramatically, and rates of stress, anxiety, depression and burnout are through the roof. Many of us are struggling to cope, and get to the point where we feel we don't have the capacity for "extra" demands.

I'm not saying it's right, or good, or that we shouldn't be doing anything about it, but I think it's the result of a lot of changes that are probably not so much about Vatican II as they are about massive social and cultural change, in the church as well as outside it, impacting on the way clergy experience their work.

Paidiske said:

My sense (as a priest in another denomination) is that what you're describing in terms of a change in responsivity from priests, is probably not the fault of Vatican II. Over recent decades, the demands on clergy across the board have grown enormously, the support and resources available have dropped dramatically, and rates of stress, anxiety, depression and burnout are through the roof. Many of us are struggling to cope, and get to the point where we feel we don't have the capacity for "extra" demands.

I'm not saying it's right, or good, or that we shouldn't be doing anything about it, but I think it's the result of a lot of changes that are probably not so much about Vatican II as they are about massive social and cultural change, in the church as well as outside it, impacting on the way clergy experience their work.

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This is also an extremely important point. By the way, the challenges you and I face, as difficult as it can be to handle multiple congregations (although I myself obtained assistance due to my health collapse as right now I am not well enough to solely operate a single mission parish, let alone two of them), are less than what some clergy are facing. DW, the German broadcaster, recently covered the story of an extraordinarily pious and hardworking priest in Spain who takes care of 43 parishes single-handedly!* Kyrie eleision.


*He has half as many parishes as the Syriac Orthodox have anaphoras; the total number among the Syriac Orthodox being 86, which I think does put complaints about the multiplicity of liturgical prayers in the Roman Rite into perspective, although in practice most Syriac Orthodox parishes in the US mainly use the shortest of these anaphorae, that of Mar Dionysius bar Salibi, and the rubrics also require the use of the longest anaphora, from the Syriac recension of the ancient Hagiopolitan Divine Liturgy of St. James, on several occasions, but what the SOC-WUS diocese did was try to get around that by taking the Words of Institution and the Epiclesis from the Anaphora of St. James and insert it into the Anaphora of Mar Bar Salibi.

But I do find complaints that the Novus Ordo increased the number of Eucharistic prayers to four to be amusing considering that the Syriac Orthodox do have 86 of them, of which around fourteen have been translated into English, and I think around twenty are in regular use in the Middle East and India. The Maronites historically had a comparable number, and the Ethiopians and Eritreans have fourteen (and the Armenians used to have around as many, but now only have one, although it is a good one, named for St. Athanasius, but in fact a shorter version of the Anaphora of St. James).

In the middle-age the great poet Dante put four popes in his Hell, also the living pope (for who a place in the hell was already prepared). Dante was a true Catholic.

I hope not, but also pope Francis may end in the hell (among the self conceited ones ?)

I'm not a reticent Catholic.

discombobulated1 said:

A lot of Catholics left the Church after the V2 changes began to be implemented.

Maybe it's a good thing, in a way anyhow, that I wasn't into the Church much when I was young anyway. Then, when I began praying the rosary, I began tobe VERY interested and began attending Mass every Sunday. I was so clueless then I didn't even know they had Mass the rest of the week also ( except on Monday which is usually the priest's day off). I'm thankful one of the parishioners invited me or maybe I would never have found out... funny how things go.

Well, it's also interesting that I didn't read up on the modern history of the Church until I had been back in the Church it for many years. To hear the Sedevacantists tell, the novus ordo Church is totally worthless. Well, I know that is not true, but just the same, there are some bad clergy there, and while Protestants harp on the molestation cases, which are only about 2% of the priesthood... they are totally clueless about some other very serious problems. Yes, child molestation is the worst of the worst. But I'm talking about such things as: Priests nowadays don't seem to believe in hell, yet Jesus said most people end up there (my paraphrase). So I'd say there is a very good reason to evangelize, but that's another thing most Catholic clergy do NOT focus on or encourage others to do.

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You are quite correct about the undue focus on clergy sexual abuse of boys. A lot of modern priests seem to be drifting into a pleasant haze of universalism where Purgatory is not a dreadful place at all, but something like taking a pleasant shower before dinner. In their defense, I would have difficulty if I were a European parish priest in which only a tiny handful of elderly parishioners show up for weekly mass. Because it is a mortal sin to skip mass, that simply means that the vast majority of European Catholics won't even make it to Purgatory. I think that is a hard pill to swallow, especially if I were the one who has been given the responsibility of the spiritual nurture of this flock.

discombobulated1 said:

I can only speak for myself, really. For some reason, the Catholics I've known are reticent to discuss any dissatisfaction with the Church. Not tht I get out much anyway. Maybe I just haven't met "the right ones."

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You should broaden your Catholic circle, evidently you circle of acquaintances is small and one sided

discombobulated1 said:

I can only speak for myself, really. For some reason, the Catholics I've known are reticent to discuss any dissatisfaction with the Church.

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discombobulated1 said:

Absolutely

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Ok, We are on the same page but maybe on different places. I hear and at times even express dissatisfaction with the Church.
But like a dysfunctional family, it is mine, in my blood.

As with most groups of people, my experience with Catholics is that they tend to defend their church to outsiders such as myself, but when communicating with each other they feel more liberty to express their personal opinions, pro or con. If you drop in on any of the denominational boards here at CF you will see a lot more give and take among members of those denominations than you will find on the General Theology board.