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We Are Saved By Works

jimmyjimmy

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The average evangelical sees the New Covenant as a lowered the bar of the law of God. He sees the OT God as a stickler for the rules, but the nice, gentle Jesus of the NT lets sin slide because He's a lot less uptight. The reality is that God has not lowered the standard. Not one bit.

We are not saved in the manner that most people imagine. We are saved by works - the works of Christ.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Mathew 5:17

The only way that God can be true to both His justice and His mercy is that, in Christ, He lived the life we should have lived and died the death we should have died. His justice was poured out on the Son in order for His mercy to be poured out upon us.
 
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NannaNae

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we are saved by a grace then by a faith in that grace and by that opportunity it requires obedience..
By that obedience we are weighed and rewarded by our measure of his life we fruited in our lives ..
but not of our deeds we think are
" good" but those that were born in his spirit and by his desires ( Jesus said I only do what I see my father doing , those things bore real fruits ) and will in that moment of our humble obedience , that bare real eternal fruit for us . and that eternal fruit is what will claim us to live in the next life.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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we are saved by a grace then by a faith in that grace and by that opportunity it requires obedience..
By that obedience we are weighed and rewarded by our measure of his life we fruited in our lives ..
but not of our deeds we think are
" good" but those that were born in his spirit and by his desires ( jesu said I only do what I see my father doing , those things bore real fruits ) and will in that moment of our humble obedience , that bare real eternal fruit for us . and that eternal fruit is what will claim us to live in the next life.

NannaNae,

While I would never deny you or anyone else the freedom to rely upon yourself, in part or full, in your standing before God, my faith rests in the obedience of Christ alone. If it were based on my obedience, whatsoever, I would not stand a chance. I need 100% salvation, and I believe that's what God provides in the work of Jesus for me.

Brian
 
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NannaNae

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NannaNae,

While I would never deny you or anyone else the freedom to rely upon yourself, in part or full, in your standing before God, my faith rests in the obedience of Christ alone. If it were based on my obedience, whatsoever, I would not stand a chance. I need 100% salvation, and I believe that's what God provides in the work of Jesus for me.

Brian
read it again, that is what I said!

done!
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Seems like you have a few more steps in your view than I do in mine, so I don't see them as the same. Mixing anything with grace does not add anything to Christ's work, it subtracts from it.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Yes, His work on the cross.

Yes, Messy, and a bit more than that, I believe.

Our need is greater than just forgiveness of sin, which of course His death satisfies, but we also have a need for righteousness. His life was lived in perfect obedience to the Law, and it was lived on our behalf. He not only died for us, He lived for us.

Brian
 
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stevenfrancis

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The average evangelical sees the New Covenant as a lowered the bar of the law of God. He sees the OT God as a stickler for the rules, but the nice, gentle Jesus of the NT lets sin slide because He's a lot less uptight. The reality is that God has not lowered the standard. Not one bit.

We are not saved in the manner that most people imagine. We are saved by works - the works of Christ.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Mathew 5:17

The only way that God can be true to both His justice and His mercy is that, in Christ, He lived the life we should have lived and died the death we should have died. His justice was poured out on the Son in order for His mercy to be poured out upon us.

It's both/and. Not either/or. Christians need not be divided by such maxims, for they are both entirely true.

We are saved by grace.
One of God's graces is faith.

Eph 2:8 Yes, it was grace that saved you, with faith for its instrument; it did not come from yourselves, it was God’s gift, 9 not from any action of yours, or there would be room for pride. 10 No, we are his design; God has created us in Christ Jesus, pledged to such good actions as he has prepared beforehand, to be the employment of our lives.

For faith to be a living and abiding thing, one must follow the commandments of Christ, and perform the corporal works of mercy to enter into heaven.

James 14 Of what use is it, my brethren, if a man claims to have faith, and has no deeds to shew for it? Can faith save him then? 15 Here is a brother, here is a sister, going naked, left without the means to secure their daily food; 16 if one of you says to them, Go in peace, warm yourselves and take your fill, without providing for their bodily needs, of what use is it? 17 Thus faith, if it has no deeds to shew for itself, has lost its own principle of life. 18 We shall be inclined to say to him, Thou hast faith, but I have deeds to shew. Shew me this faith of thine without any deeds to prove it, and I am prepared, by my deeds, to prove my own faith. 19 Thou believest that there is only one God; that is well enough, but then, so do the devils, and the devils shrink from him in terror. 20 Rash soul, wouldst thou be assured that faith without deeds to shew has no life in it? 21 Think of our father Abraham; was it not by his deeds that he found approval, when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 See how his faith conspired with deeds done, and through those deeds his faith was realized. 23 Thus he confirmed the words of scripture, which tell us, Abraham put his faith in God, and it was reckoned virtue in him, and he earned the title of God’s friend. 24 You see, then, that it takes deeds as well as faith if a man is to be justified.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit down upon the throne of his glory, 32 and all nations will be gathered in his presence, where he will divide men one from the other, as the shepherd divides the sheep from the goats; 33 he will set the sheep on his right, and the goats on his left. 34 Then the King will say to those who are on his right hand, Come, you that have received a blessing from my Father, take possession of the kingdom which has been prepared for you since the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me food, thirsty, and you gave me drink; I was a stranger, and you brought me home, 36 naked, and you clothed me, sick, and you cared for me, a prisoner, and you came to me. 37 Whereupon the just will answer, Lord, when was it that we saw thee hungry, and fed thee, or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When was it that we saw thee a stranger, and brought thee home, or naked, and clothed thee? 39 When was it that we saw thee sick or in prison and came to thee? 40 And the King will answer them, Believe me, when you did it to one of the least of my brethren here, you did it to me. 41 Then he will say to those who are on his left hand, in their turn, Go far from me, you that are accursed, into that eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you never gave me food, I was thirsty, and you never gave me drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not bring me home, I was naked, and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison, and you did not care for me. 44 Whereupon they, in their turn, will answer, Lord, when was it that we saw thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 And he will answer them, Believe me, when you refused it to one of the least of my brethren here, you refused it to me. 46 And these shall pass on to eternal punishment, and the just to eternal life.
 
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Messy

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Yes, Messy, and a bit more than that, I believe.

Our need is greater than just forgiveness of sin, which of course His death satisfies, but we also have a need for righteousness. His life was lived in perfect obedience to the Law, and it was lived on our behalf. He not only died for us, He lived for us.

Brian

Yes, He lives in us and we died with Him, which enables us to walk in holiness, but that is what follows, we were saved only by grace.
 
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NannaNae

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His life was lived in perfect obedience to the Law, and it was lived on our behalf. He not only died for us, He lived for us.

Brian
yes as our example and all who follow after him will be sons.
how people think they can do just about anything over and over and it not have eternal effects is just such a slap in his face,.
they can not keep crucifying him day after day.

someday when they mean it , they will finally submit their hearts , until then ... who knows ! "as though by fire" maybe?
in the mean time it is a betrothal and as such means as a marriage it is everyone gives 100% + 100% . and will divorce anyone who refuses to be married and faithful in their marriage .. and if they aren't faithful and good help mates in their betrothal they won't be faithful in their marriage.

folks the wedding hasn't happened you are only the betrothed..
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Yes, He lives in us and we died with Him, which enables us to walk in holiness, but that is what follows, we were saved only by grace.

Messy, I'm not saying that He lives in us, although He does, I'm saying that He lived *for* us. He is our substitute in every way, and this is imputed to us.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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yes as our example and all who follow after him will be sons.
how people think they can do just about anything over and over and it not have eternal effects is just such a slap in his face,.
they can not keep crucifying him day after day.

someday when they mean it , they will finally submit their hearts , until then ... who knows ! "as though by fire" maybe?
in the mean time it is a betrothal and as such means as a marriage it is everyone gives 100% + 100% . and will divorce anyone who refuses to be married and faithful in their marriage .. and if they aren't faithful and good help mates in their betrothal they won't be faithful in their marriage.

folks the wedding hasn't happened you are only the betrothed..

Thanks for the reply, NannaNae, Now I understand where you are coming from a bit better. It seems that you're saying: If we obey God well in this life we will reap the reward of Heaven in the next, and we must give 100%, or God will divorcing us. Is this a correct understanding of what you are saying?

Since I am certain that I have not given 100%, I have to ask you how you do it. I can certainly use all the help I can get, so would you share your secret?

How do you manage to love the Lord your God with all of your heart, mind, soul and strength every day? Also how do you manage to met the needs of those around you as quickly and as thoroughly as you meet your own needs? How do you love, serve and forgive your enemies without ever becoming bitter? How do you manage to not be angry at your brother?

I agree with you one one point. God does demand perfection. He demands 100%, but there was, and is, only one who is perfect, and praise be to God, Jesus lived a perfect life on my behalf because I am a sinner. I simply can't live in perfect obedience, not even close. Thankfully he came for sinners like me.

". . ."Healthy people don't need a doctor--sick people do. I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners." - Mark 2:17

God demands perfection in obedience to his law. Scripture teaches that if we break one law, we've broken them all. "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it." - James 2:10

We can't claim to give 100% if we fail to obey the law even in one point. If we do we are guilty of breaking it all.

As I originally stated, it's the perfect law-keeping of Christ that is my only hope. He loved the Father and His neighbor perfectly, and that perfect life is imputed to me through faith in the same way my sin was imputed to Him. In theological terms it's referred to as, "double imputation". He got my sin and I got his righteousness.

I strongly disagree that Jesus lived a perfect life only as an example to follow, as you claim; although that certainly is a benefit to us. His saving power is in his substitution, not in giving us an example to follow.

Brian
 
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NannaNae

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there is lots of way to learn what sin is , you can carry your own or others peoples sins and still learn the same lessons.

.. but one day you mean it with your whole heart !

and your not just playing at it any more.
and you want more than a white washing or
to FEEEEEEEL good about your filth.



so he says, he has always said...in IS
" come let us reason though your sins be as scarlet they shall be made white as wool"

maybe let the game begin!
remember there was 10 virgins ..
not 5 hookers and 5 virgins.

so let the games begin!
take him on.. you want white as wool? .... take him up on his offer!
wrestle with him until he blesses you and don't let go until he does and you have admitted who you really are.
and he will make you white as wool and he will know you and you will know you!

but that is the redemption process and there is no way around that process !
 
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NannaNae

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to get more specific...
like Isaac some of us spend 21 plus years being worked over my other people and in that time we really figure out who we really are.
then the day comes when we are willing to even be harmed by God in order to be healed.

because your going to be harmed by God or man... so might as well be God..

then finally you will do what He asks!
because only he can fix what is broken in us .
and mankind can't , won't and never will fix anything .
they are so efficient at doing harm.
but when he heals what you and they broke, you no longer fear them either..
because he can and will heal anything they might do to you.

"come let us reason......"
Psa 147:3
He healeth the broken in heart, and bindeth up their wounds. he works his works and so we respond in kind because that will be what we understand as love.. his love worketh works..

his goal is your freedom from death and brokenness , not a white wash or a paint Job but an over haul!
it is not one special prayer but a million , not one special choice but a million , it is all about our interactions with a living God.
it is not one but two ( you and him )fighting it out until you are made in his image and he has created in you who he wants you to be .
this christian thing, it all his His concepts of discipleship that counts, not mine, NOT YOURS ! I just gave you his concepts.
where I am in that process is none of your dang business!
it is his business !
i'm his!
 
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brixken7

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"We are not saved in the manner that most people imagine. We are saved by works - the works of Christ."

That is so true! (And I was YEARS in learning that fact.)

And just as OUR good works do not gain us salvation, neither by OUR evil works do we lose our salvation -- witness King David!

"The only way that God can be true to both His justice and His mercy is that, in Christ, He lived the life we should have lived and died the death we should have died. His justice was poured out on the Son in order for His mercy to be poured out upon us."

Right.
And "God hath concluded them all" (all of humanity) "in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all" (Romans 11:32; Psalm 145:9). Thus, all will come to Christ (comparing John 3:35 with John 6:37).

And "all (God's) works shall praise (Him)" (Psalm 145:10).

-- Ken
.........
 
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Si_monfaith

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Yes, Messy, and a bit more than that, I believe.

Our need is greater than just forgiveness of sin, which of course His death satisfies, but we also have a need for righteousness. His life was lived in perfect obedience to the Law, and it was lived on our behalf. He not only died for us, He lived for us.

Brian

Jesus set us free from the law. No more moral law but just rest in Christ.
 
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JM

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Jesus set us free from the law. No more moral law but just rest in Christ.

Accordingly, you may have more than One God, worship idols, take the name of the Lord in vain, etc. No?
 
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TheSeabass

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God saves. So the question is.....who does God save and why?

Does God justify those that do nothing? No.
Does God justify those that have an obedient faith in doing His will? Yes.

Since God saves those that have obedient works in doing His will, it is in that sense that:
--James can say by works a man is justified (James 2:24)
--Paul can say by obeying from the heart, then one is freed from sin/justified (Romans 6:17,18)

Clearly obedient works play a necessary role in God saving a person.
 
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twin1954

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God saves. So the question is.....who does God save and why?

Does God justify those that do nothing? No.
Does God justify those that have an obedient faith in doing His will? Yes.

Since God saves those that have obedient works in doing His will, it is in that sense that:
--James can say by works a man is justified (James 2:24)
--Paul can say by obeying from the heart, then one is freed from sin/justified (Romans 6:17,18)

Clearly obedient works play a necessary role in God saving a person.
Works of man play no role in the salvation process. You are confusing cause and effect. Faith produces works as a fruit not as a cause. We are justified in our claim of faith when we have the fruit of works. That is what James is teaching.
 
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