Writing a book on free will salvation

[FutureAndAHope]

i did not ask about some things. I asked about ALL.

In any given moment of decision, can any human understand all the possible future consequences or effects of all the possible options on himself and all the others affected by that decision? Yes or no?

No.

 

[Oneofhope]

I have read through the list you gave me, and you have put a lot of diligent work into it.

Thanks! But that's only a warm-up. I haven't put much time into it. In fact, there are some entries that I would remove today. Sometimes we see things that aren't there the following day.

Our lack of action could affect our own and other people's stories.

If someone's prayers affect my story and change the course of my life . . . Believe me, that's a massive violation of my free will.

You know, this is an incredible doctrine to both understand and misunderstand. Why do I say that? Because depending upon which side of the fence you're on, you're rendition of the Gospel Saving Plan of Christ is different. And that's a major problem.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Thanks! But that's only a warm-up. I haven't put much time into it. In fact, there are some entries that I would remove today. Sometimes we see things that aren't there the following day.

If someone's prayers affect my story and change the course of my life . . . Believe me, that's a massive violation of my free will.

You know, this is an incredible doctrine to both understand and misunderstand. Why do I say that? Because depending upon which side of the fence you're on, you're rendition of the Gospel Saving Plan of Christ is different. And that's a major problem.

Please expound not sure what you mean by that.

 

[Oneofhope]

Please expound not sure what you mean by that.

I assume that you're referring to the last sentence or two.

First, you and I agree that we have a limited sense of free will. I liken us to that of a pinball inside of its case. The ball is free to spin, bounce, go here and there, but it always ends up at the bottom eventually. The ball can never leave; it is trapped within a case.

Those who believe in complete free will, they will likely live in a state of doubt over their Salvation. If their Salvation depends upon their choice, there is no security in that.

Those who believe in a God who draws, leads, teaches, prays for, promises, guarantees by way of Spiritual Circumcision. . . that is a Faith (if understood) that can be fully trusted and counted on.

The Gospel that I teach always, 100% of the time includes Spiritual Circumcision. If I didn't include that teaching into the Gospel Saving Plan of Christ, I would be teaching a false Gospel that virtually ignores obedience, proven by the lack of it.

That is a start.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I assume that you're referring to the last sentence or two.

First, you and I agree that we have a limited sense of free will. I liken us to that of a pinball inside of its case. The ball is free to spin, bounce, go here and there, but it always ends up at the bottom eventually. The ball can never leave; it is trapped within a case.

Those who believe in complete free will, they will likely live in a state of doubt over their Salvation. If their Salvation depends upon their choice, there is no security in that.

Those who believe in a God who draws, leads, teaches, prays for, promises, guarantees by way of Spiritual Circumcision. . . that is a Faith (if understood) that can be fully trusted and counted on.

The Gospel that I teach always, 100% of the time includes Spiritual Circumcision. If I didn't include that teaching into the Gospel Saving Plan of Christ, I would be teaching a false Gospel that virtually ignores obedience, proven by the lack of it.

That is a start.

I am suggesting that God is powerful enough, that even within a constrained plan, we are still making genuine free-will choices. We are still free to obey or disobey. An example of this from the book is King David. In the Bible God said:

Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book all my days were recorded, even those which were purposed before they had come into being. How dear are your thoughts to me, O God! how great is the number of them! If I made up their number, it would be more than the grains of sand; when I am awake, I am still with you. (NKJV, Psalms 139:16-18)

So God had a plan for David, a positive one. But God gave David a secondary(and negative) plan when he sinned.

Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon. Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ Thus says the LORD: ‘Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.’ (2 Samuel 12:7-12)

You could take it even further, but I did not, and suggest David was not even God's first choice Saul was.

And Samuel said to Saul, “You have done foolishly. You have not kept the commandment of the LORD your God, which He commanded you. For now the LORD would have established your kingdom over Israel forever. (NKJV, 1 Samuel 13:13) ... And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the LORD regretted that He had made Saul king over Israel. (NKJV, 1 Samuel 15:35)

The plan like I say just prevents things from getting chaotic. So God can truly say:

No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it. (NKJV, 1 Corinthians 10:13)

 

[Oneofhope]

I am suggesting that God is powerful enough, that even within a constrained plan, we are still making genuine free-will choices. We are still free to obey or disobey. An example of this from the book is King David. In the Bible God said:

Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book all my days were recorded, even those which were purposed before they had come into being. How dear are your thoughts to me, O God! how great is the number of them! If I made up their number, it would be more than the grains of sand; when I am awake, I am still with you. (NKJV, Psalms 139:16-18)

So God had a plan for David, a positive one. But God gave David a secondary(and negative) plan when he sinned.

Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon. Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ Thus says the LORD: ‘Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.’ (2 Samuel 12:7-12)

You could take it even further, but I did not, and suggest David was not even God's first choice Saul was.

And Samuel said to Saul, “You have done foolishly. You have not kept the commandment of the LORD your God, which He commanded you. For now the LORD would have established your kingdom over Israel forever. (NKJV, 1 Samuel 13:13) ... And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the LORD regretted that He had made Saul king over Israel. (NKJV, 1 Samuel 15:35)

The plan like I say just prevents things from getting chaotic. So God can truly say:

No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it. (NKJV, 1 Corinthians 10:13)

Well done. There is what seems like an unending source of Scripture that could be used to prove humanity possesses true free will. As I have scoured the Bible multiple times in multiple translations, to find information dealing with free will, I also see all of the passages that could be used to prove that it exists. With your writing a book, I'm sure that you understand.

When it comes to having a legitimate view of free will, it comes down to the amount of support the source will provide. In our case, we have the Bible, with minor support added from extra-Biblical sources if desired. But when it comes to God controlling people, places, and things . . . it's as obvious as the color red. When people do not acknowledge the unending supply of Scripture that deals with the Power and control of God (over humans, animals, and the physical earth), I already know how the conversation is going to end. Their lack of knowledge and awareness of the Story of God cannot be hidden. I know how it is . . . I used to be one of them.

This is an incredibly important doctrine, for I assert that if a person [does not] acknowledge that surrendering their life to Christ will result in a changed life, they have accepted and baptized into a religion other than Christianity. They have received a false Gospel. If we want to know the actual Gospel Saving Plan of Jesus Christ, we must know the Covenant of Circumcision. If we want to get to the bottom of free will, we must know the Covenant of Circumcision. But, because the modern-day "church" does not teach Spiritual Circumcision in the sense that God wants it to be known, we, the "flock," haven't a clue as to what it is. But those who have dedicated years to studying this core doctrine of the Bible, have the advantage of Understanding, Knowledge, and Wisdom.

Also, if we would wake up and realize that Paul has told us that the Plan of God has been kept a hidden Mystery from the beginning, we would launch a full-scale investigation as to what he is talking about. What would that entail? Scouring the Bible, Word for Holy Word, Thought for Holy Thought, Phrase by Holy Phrase . . . looking for anything and everything that would help to understand what, exactly, he was talking about.

Ephesians 1 and 3. Absolutely essential, must-know Scripture.

As said, this is a great topic, but I am afraid that those who believe in it (complete free will) have been given a false gospel, and it is the basis for the modern-day church. Having a gospel plan that puts you in control . . . that's a false gospel. This is not to be mean . . . in no way. I say that because I once believed I had free will. I thought I was responsible for the sin in my life . . . but it was the Sinful Nature, not me. But I am saying that I am thankful that I have finally studied the entire Bible and can easily conclude that we are either controlled by God or the Devil . . . never at the same time, nor does their Fatherhood overlap . . . ever. All of creation is under the Curse of the Lord, thus we are born under the Spiritual Fatherhood of Satan and are Redeemed of that Fatherhood by the Circumcision of Christ.

This Promise of Spiritual Circumcision to the Jews below is the same Promise given to the future Gentiles who will be grafted in, for Gentiles are Elected and Saved by God just as are the Blessed Jews.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 NLT - 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations."

If Christians do not identify with these three unbelievable Verses above . . . yikes.

 

[Josheb]

No.

Thank you, once again. I, again, agree with you. Next question:

Has sin had any adverse effect on human volition?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Thank you, once again. I, again, agree with you. Next question:

Has sin had any adverse effect on human volition?

As Paul said, sin has the power to resist his will regarding the actions he takes, but he still has a will to do good, a will that could be used to accept or reject God's offer of salvation.

Rom 7:14-18 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

 

[Oneofhope]

As Paul said, sin has the power to resist his will regarding the actions he takes, but he still has a will to do good, a will that could be used to accept or reject God's offer of salvation.

Rom 7:14-18 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

Awwwww . . . You're quoting Paul in Romans 7 in error, for he is talking about his pre-Transformed life. Studying Spiritual Circumcision will prove this.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Awwwww . . . You're quoting Paul in Romans 7 in error, for he is talking about his pre-Transformed life. Studying Spiritual Circumcision will prove this.

Yes, it is talking about his pre-transformed life. Before the Holy Spirit came and gave power over his sin. The point I am making is his "will" is still intact. When he "sees" the law he delights in it, but his body, his sinful nature, still has control over him.

When the Holy Spirit comes he gives us power to live above, for the most part, our sinful nature. Although there is still a measure of conflict.

Gal 5:16-17 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Mar 14:38 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

1Jn 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

 

[Oneofhope]

When he "sees" the law he delights in it, but his body, his sinful nature, still has control over him.

No no no. Sir, this is utterly impossible. After Paul's conversion, he had no Sinful Nature. It was cut out by Christ. This is what the Bible is about. If the Sinful Nature is not cut away, there can be no Life in Christ.

Colossians 2:11, 13 NLT - 11 "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature." ... 13 "You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins."

If what Paul taught about Spiritual Circumcision, the cutting away of the Sinful Nature, doesn't change your mind that he is still under the control of the Sinful Nature (the Devil), then there's not one thing I could ever, in a baballion years, say or do that could change your mind. And believe me, this is only the tip of the iceberg to easily demonstrate that Paul was not living a life of sin when he wrote R7. To state that he was out of control has absolutely no basis in any of his writings, in fact, quite the opposite. He asks his readers to model himself 18 times. If Paul was out of control, then he was a total hypocrite. Anyway, I could go on and on regarding Biblical evidence of Paul's Spiritual Nature, his mindset, and his subsequent behaviors.

When is the church going to start teaching Spiritual Circumcision. And that's not a question.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

No no no. Sir, this is utterly impossible. After Paul's conversion, he had no Sinful Nature. It was cut out by Christ. This is what the Bible is about. If the Sinful Nature is not cut away, there can be no Life in Christ.

Colossians 2:11, 13 NLT - 11 "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature." ... 13 "You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins."

If what Paul taught about Spiritual Circumcision, the cutting away of the Sinful Nature, doesn't change your mind that he is still under the control of the Sinful Nature (the Devil), then there's not one thing I could ever, in a baballion years, say or do that could change your mind. And believe me, this is only the tip of the iceberg to easily demonstrate that Paul was not living a life of sin when he wrote R7. To state that he was out of control has absolutely no basis in any of his writings, in fact, quite the opposite. He asks his readers to model himself 18 times. If Paul was out of control, then he was a total hypocrite. Anyway, I could go on and on regarding Biblical evidence of Paul's Spiritual Nature, his mindset, and his subsequent behaviors.

When is the church going to start teaching Spiritual Circumcision. And that's not a question.

I 100% agree. I was quoting Paul's pre-conversion experience. I agree with what you said here:

Colossians 2:11, 13 NLT - 11 "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature." ... 13 "You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins."

The only point I wish to make is that even Christians, with their new nature, can slip up occasionally.

Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."

After stating that we should not sin, it was still said:

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I know although looking at my life I am 80% free from sin. There are still areas that I might fall in occasionally. But my sins are not habitual.

I am advocating for a new nature. But aware we still may fall. We still need grace.

 

[Oneofhope]

I 100% agree. I was quoting Paul's pre-conversion experience. I agree with what you said here:

Colossians 2:11, 13 NLT - 11 "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature." ... 13 "You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins."

The only point I wish to make is that even Christians, with their new nature, can slip up occasionally.

Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."

After stating that we should not sin, it was still said:

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I know although looking at my life I am 80% free from sin. There are still areas that I might fall in occasionally. But my sins are not habitual.

I am advocating for a new nature. But aware we still may fall. We still need grace.

Wow. I don't know how I am misunderstanding you, but I'm glad that I am! From what you just wrote, you sound like a True and Genuine Christian. I don't say that very often, and in the end, usually end up being wrong.

 

[Josheb]

As Paul said, sin has the power to resist his will regarding the actions he takes, but he still has a will to do good, a will that could be used to accept or reject God's offer of salvation.

Rom 7:14-18 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

Yes or no, please.

Has sin had any adverse effect on human volition?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Yes or no, please.

Has sin had any adverse effect on human volition?

It has had some, so yes.

 

[Josheb]

It has had some, so yes.

Thank you, again, for that direct and concise answer. Very much appreciated.

Let me digress for a moment because, despite our many conversations I don't believe I have ever read you identify your doctrine of salvation other than anti-Calvinist/Lutheran/Augustinian/monergism. I know you're synergist, but beyond that I don't think I have ever read you self-identify a specific doctrine of salvation. Would you describe yourself as Arminian, Wesleyan, Provisionist, or Pelagian?

After that question is answered, I will summarize what has been said, make a brief comment according to the answers provided so far (with all of which I agree) and then move the entire conversation forward by bringing those answers to bear on the matter of "free will salvation." Thank you for your patience and forbearance.

How do you self-identify doctrinally when it comes to salvation?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Thank you, again, for that direct and concise answer. Very much appreciated.

Let me digress for a moment because, despite our many conversations I don't believe I have ever read you identify your doctrine of salvation other than anti-Calvinist/Lutheran/Augustinian/monergism. I know you're synergist, but beyond that I don't think I have ever read you self-identify a specific doctrine of salvation. Would you describe yourself as Arminian, Wesleyan, Provisionist, or Pelagian?

After that question is answered, I will summarize what has been said, make a brief comment according to the answers provided so far (with all of which I agree) and then move the entire conversation forward by bringing those answers to bear on the matter of "free will salvation." Thank you for your patience and forbearance.

How do you self-identify doctrinally when it comes to salvation?

I have not read those doctrines. I have been a Christian for around 20 years. But my doctrine was formed after encountering Calvinism, after which time I spent a few years reading scripture, the early church fathers, and encountering ideas from people such as yourself.

 

[Josheb]

I have not read those doctrines. I have been a Christian for around 20 years. But my doctrine was formed after encountering Calvinism, after which time I spent a few years reading scripture, the early church fathers, and encountering ideas from people such as yourself.

Okay, Thanks for that information. That explains a lot. You presume to write a book critical of one of the most prominent doctrines in all of Christian history and you do so not having read what hundreds of Christians before you have argued. Since you and I have traded posts in many threads in multiple forums you and I also both know you do so judging others to hold false doctrines.

However, I will not belabor that point. Let's review your answers to the questions asked.

• Can a sinful sinner's will ever overcome God's will? No.
• Can any human know and/or understand every single influence in the past that has brought about any given moment of decision? No.
• Can any human understand all the possible future consequences of all possible options? No.
• Can any human understand all the effects of all the possible options on himself and all the others affected by that decision? No.
• Has sin had any adverse effect on human volition? Yes.

I agree with all your answers. These answers mean a sinful human cannot over-rule God's will if God does not allow it, and no human can know all the influences brought to bear on any given moment of decision, cannot understand all the consequences of all possible options of that decision, understand all the consequences of that decision or its effects on self and others, AND he or she has been adversely affected on the volitional level by sin. Scripture states explicitly, and unequivocally, every single human being alive is dead in sin AND enslaved to sin. Scripture also states the only solution to that problem is Jesus.

The word "free" means, "not under the control or in the power of another; able to act or be done as one wishes," "no longer confined," or "unfettered."


I therefore ask you this last question: Given the limiting, confining and adverse, conditions listed in the bullet points above......



Is human volition not under the control or power of another, able to do as one wishes, not confined and unfettered? Is human will actually free?



As was the case with the preceding questions, this one is intentionally worded so it can be answered yes or no. A direct, immediate, concise "Yes," or "No," is all that is requested. We can discuss the answer once the question asked has been answered, so please do not delay, do not digress, do not avoid, do not obfuscate, do not change the subject.

Just answer the question asked.



Given the limiting conditions we both agree routinely and inescapably exist, is the human will actually free?


.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Okay, Thanks for that information. That explains a lot. You presume to write a book critical of one of the most prominent doctrines in all of Christian history and you do so not having read what hundreds of Christians before you have argued. Since you and I have traded posts in many threads in multiple forums you and I also both know you do so judging others to hold false doctrines.

However, I will not belabor that point. Let's review your answers to the questions asked.

• Can a sinful sinner's will ever overcome God's will? No.
• Can any human know and/or understand every single influence in the past that has brought about any given moment of decision? No.
• Can any human understand all the possible future consequences of all possible options? No.
• Can any human understand all the effects of all the possible options on himself and all the others affected by that decision? No.
• Has sin had any adverse effect on human volition? Yes.

I agree with all your answers. These answers mean a sinful human cannot over-rule God's will if God does not allow it, and no human can know all the influences brought to bear on any given moment of decision, cannot understand all the consequences of all possible options of that decision, understand all the consequences of that decision or its effects on self and others, AND he or she has been adversely affected on the volitional level by sin. Scripture states explicitly, and unequivocally, every single human being alive is dead in sin AND enslaved to sin. Scripture also states the only solution to that problem is Jesus.

The word "free" means, "not under the control or in the power of another; able to act or be done as one wishes," "no longer confined," or "unfettered."


I therefore ask you this last question: Given the limiting, confining and adverse, conditions listed in the bullet points above......



Is human volition not under the control or power of another, able to do as one wishes, not confined and unfettered? Is human will actually free?



As was the case with the preceding questions, this one is intentionally worded so it can be answered yes or no. A direct, immediate, concise "Yes," or "No," is all that is requested. We can discuss the answer once the question asked has been answered, so please do not delay, do not digress, do not avoid, do not obfuscate, do not change the subject.

Just answer the question asked.



Given the limiting conditions we both agree routinely and inescapably exist, is the human will actually free?


.

As I have stated before, regarding Paul's discourse on the person "sold under sin", how their heart works "before" receiving the Holy Spirit.

Rom 7:15-16 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.

Rom 7:19-20 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

Paul states he has a will (a free will) to do what is good, but his flesh overrides his will. It is our very core that accepts Jesus, not our fleshly actions. Yes, we are sold under sin, but our will is not enslaved.

You might say, Paul was speaking of his current life. But that is unlikely, for he uses the term "sold under sin", and mentions a great struggle. Now it is true a person may struggle from time to time to overcome their desires. But a born-again believer is not controlled by sin. As we see here:

1Jn 3:5-10 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

 

[Josheb]

As I have stated before, regarding Paul's discourse on the person "sold under sin", how their heart works "before" receiving the Holy Spirit.

Rom 7:15-16 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.

Rom 7:19-20 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

Paul states he has a will (a free will) to do what is good, but his flesh overrides his will. It is our very core that accepts Jesus, not our fleshly actions. Yes, we are sold under sin, but our will is not enslaved.

You might say, Paul was speaking of his current life. But that is unlikely, for he uses the term "sold under sin", and mentions a great struggle. Now it is true a person may struggle from time to time to overcome their desires. But a born-again believer is not controlled by sin. As we see here:

1Jn 3:5-10 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

That is not an answer to the question asked. The question asked is, "Given the limiting conditions we both agree exist, is the human will actually free?" I did NOT ask if the will is enslaved. I asked if it is free given the limiting conditions you agreed to. I took this one step at a time. I built consensus. I could have asked many more questions but after establishing an agreement, a consensus on five specific matters there is sufficient evidence permitting the asking of this current question. The will cannot overrule God, the will cannot be asserted in any manner that is fully informed - it is never fully informed of the past, its influences, the consequences and the effects it brings on self and others, and it is compromised to some degree (small or grate) by sin. I did not ask if it was enslaved.


Given the limiting conditions with which you agreed, is the will free? Is the will unfettered?


Be honest. Don't resort to doctrine. Use your brain. There are very real limitations on the human will. Is it free? Yes or no?