Women as elders in a church?

[Strong in Him]

In the mainstream churches there is seminary training and ordination procedures. As for ordination requirements, it is much easier to term the ordinand as a minister (aka deacon) than as a priest, which carries connotations of such Catholic stipulations as gender-specificity and celibacy) or even an elder, which does have biblically-stipulated characteristics.

It's a matter of terminology - there doesn't seem to be one word which applies to, and is used by, all ordained clergy.

In the C of E, a deacon is, I think, what a person is before they are ordained as a curate. I understand that deacons/curates are "priested" (could be wrong.)
In the Methodist church people can be ordained as deacons but that is not "part way" to becoming a presbyter. It is a religious order and separate ministry; deacons have a different calling and will not, generally, be allowed to preside at communion. Though they wear clerical collars. We tend to call our clergy "Ministers", but the correct term is "Presbyter", as deacons are also ministers.
My church is a Methodist/URC shared church, and our leadership team is known as the Diaconate. It was felt that "stewards" was a Methodist term, "elders" was a URC term, whereas "deacons" is neutral. I am a Methodist and I was once a deacon at church - but I was, and am, not a Methodist deacon.
Some churches may call their ordained leaders, "elders"; in the URC, a lay person can become ordained as an elder. They don't wear clerical collars and are not members of the clergy. Their role is slightly more than that of a church steward, with more responsibility, and they are ordained elders for life.

Thus, the rather bland word "minister" can be broadly applied to almost any individual.

As all Christians have a ministry, that is no doubt true.
But then, the NT also says that we are a holy priesthood, 1 Peter 2:5. We all offer spiritual sacrifices to God, 1 Peter 2:5, Romans 12:1, Hebrews 13:15, and we are told to confess our sins to one another, James 5:16. Some churches may call their clergy "Pastor", yet we all have a pastoral role and can show pastoral care.

 

[Paidiske]

In the C of E, a deacon is, I think, what a person is before they are ordained as a curate. I understand that deacons/curates are "priested" (could be wrong.)

Sort of. In Anglicanism, there are three orders of ministry; deacons, priests and bishops. One must be a deacon before becoming a priest; and must be a priest before becoming a bishop.

But someone in one of those orders may hold any of a variety of roles; in parish ministry, in chaplaincy, in education, and so on. A "curate" is a position someone might hold; the full term is "assistant curate" and it usually describes someone in their first few years of ordained ministry, in a training role where they are an assistant to, and supervised by, someone more senior.

So, for example, I was ordained a deacon and then, eleven months later, ordained a priest (or "priested"). But for the first three and a half years after I was ordained a deacon, I worked as a "curate" in a couple of assistant positions, before being considered ready to be a priest "in charge" of a parish in my own right.

But yes, generally I avoid the term "minister" because it is so broad as to be fairly meaningless (as in, it doesn't tell you anything about what office or role a person holds, or what work they do).

 

[3 Resurrections]

Those who claim that women cannot be preachers should look at the Psalms 68:11 verse describing the Lord's commissioning of women to spread the gospel message. "The Lord giveth the word: the women who publish the tidings are a great host". Women in the NT were doing this in mass numbers. That is why Saul / Paul was entering home church assemblies, haling both men and women for spreading the gospel and throwing them into prison for doing so. Those men and women who evaded Saul's / Paul's capture scattered everywhere, preaching the Word (Acts 8:3-4).

Those who disregard women as elders should also check into Paul's instructions to Timothy in 1 Timothy 5:1 for how Timothy was to give correction to all the varieties of elders in the NT church, whether they were a "presbytero" (a male elder, aged in years), "neoterous" (male elders of a younger age), "presbyteras" (female elders, aged in years), or "neoteras" (female elders of a younger age).

Of these varied types of elders, if any were found guilty of sin by the testimony of two or three witnesses, they were to be rebuked before all, that others might fear and refrain from committing the same offenses while in the ministry. In doing this, Timothy was not to use partiality or preferment in the case of either gender or either age (1 Timothy 5:21).

 

[bbbbbbb]

Sort of. In Anglicanism, there are three orders of ministry; deacons, priests and bishops. One must be a deacon before becoming a priest; and must be a priest before becoming a bishop.

But someone in one of those orders may hold any of a variety of roles; in parish ministry, in chaplaincy, in education, and so on. A "curate" is a position someone might hold; the full term is "assistant curate" and it usually describes someone in their first few years of ordained ministry, in a training role where they are an assistant to, and supervised by, someone more senior.

So, for example, I was ordained a deacon and then, eleven months later, ordained a priest (or "priested"). But for the first three and a half years after I was ordained a deacon, I worked as a "curate" in a couple of assistant positions, before being considered ready to be a priest "in charge" of a parish in my own right.

But yes, generally I avoid the term "minister" because it is so broad as to be fairly meaningless (as in, it doesn't tell you anything about what office or role a person holds, or what work they do).

I have been surprised and impressed by the wide vocabulary used in the C of E to describe a wide range of roles, as well as architecture associated with them. As my professional field is historic preservation, I was somewhat surprised to discover that a vicarage is not a parsonage nor are either manses. Not only is there a group in Great Britain called Friends of Friendless Churches, but there are also advocacy groups for redundant parsonages and vicarages, etc. Sadly, many of these otherwise excellent buildings are being bulldozed in the name of progress.

 

[Paidiske]

I have been surprised and impressed by the wide vocabulary used in the C of E to describe a wide range of roles, as well as architecture associated with them.

We do love our idiosyncratic jargon.

As my professional field is historic preservation, I was somewhat surprised to discover that a vicarage is not a parsonage nor are either manses. Not only is there a group in Great Britain called Friends of Friendless Churches, but there are also advocacy groups for redundant parsonages and vicarages, etc. Sadly, many of these otherwise excellent buildings are being bulldozed in the name of progress.

There is always a tension between preserving the past and updating, or replacing, what has been, to fit current (and anticipated future) needs. There's no one right answer, but it's important to keep all of the somewhat competing values in mind.

 

[bbbbbbb]

We do love our idiosyncratic jargon.

There is always a tension between preserving the past and updating, or replacing, what has been, to fit current (and anticipated future) needs. There's no one right answer, but it's important to keep all of the somewhat competing values in mind.

I agree. There is the eternal tension engaged in meeting contemporary needs while keeping in mind past values.

 

[Vanellus]

And actually, I would say that what was happening in NT times was also a product of culture. Women had few rights and were 2nd class citizens - or not even ranked that highly. Whereas, in OT times they seemed to be more prominent;

This suggests that you think Jesus came to us at the wrong time. You will deny this. of course, but it is the natural inference. The following passage from Hebrews 1:1,2 presents a different view from yours:

On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son,a whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.b

I realise I have made this point before but you have also repeated yourself here.

 

[Vanellus]

Those who claim that women cannot be preachers should look at the Psalms 68:11 verse describing the Lord's commissioning of women to spread the gospel message. "The Lord giveth the word: the women who publish the tidings are a great host". Women in the NT were doing this in mass numbers. That is why Saul / Paul was entering home church assemblies, haling both men and women for spreading the gospel and throwing them into prison for doing so. Those men and women who evaded Saul's / Paul's capture scattered everywhere, preaching the Word (Acts 8:3-4).

Those who disregard women as elders should also check into Paul's instructions to Timothy in 1 Timothy 5:1 for how Timothy was to give correction to all the varieties of elders in the NT church, whether they were a "presbytero" (a male elder, aged in years), "neoterous" (male elders of a younger age), "presbyteras" (female elders, aged in years), or "neoteras" (female elders of a younger age).

Of these varied types of elders, if any were found guilty of sin by the testimony of two or three witnesses, they were to be rebuked before all, that others might fear and refrain from committing the same offenses while in the ministry. In doing this, Timothy was not to use partiality or preferment in the case of either gender or either age (1 Timothy 5:21).

That's quite a leap from women celebrating the national success of Israel in war etc (Psalm 68) to NT house churches. 1 Sam 18:6,7 is a closer example.

As the troops were returning home after David had killed the Philistine, the women came out of all the cities of Israel to meet King Saul with singing and dancing, with joyful songs, and with tambourines and other instruments. 7 And as the women danced, they sang out:

“Saul has slain his thousands, and David his tens of thousands.”

Thankfully Jesus' gospel message is a better message that is different from one celebrating slaying people!

 

[3 Resurrections]

That's quite a leap from women celebrating the national success of Israel in war etc (Psalm 68) to NT house churches. 1 Sam 18:6,7 is a closer example.

This Psalms 68:11 text is more than a message about women rejoicing over Israel's slain enemies. This chapter contains prophetic material which speaks in verse 18 of Christ ascending on high and leading a multitude of captives (which we are told in Ephesians 4 referred to Christ's resurrection and ascension that day.) Women would also be spreading that gospel message and prophesying in the days following Pentecost, as predicted by Joel 2:28. The Spirit would be poured out indiscriminately on women and men, both old and young.

 

[Vanellus]

This Psalms 68:11 text is more than a message about women rejoicing over Israel's slain enemies. This chapter contains prophetic material which speaks in verse 18 of Christ ascending on high and leading a multitude of captives (which we are told in Ephesians 4 referred to Christ's resurrection and ascension that day.) Women would also be spreading that gospel message and prophesying in the days following Pentecost, as predicted by Joel 2:28. The Spirit would be poured out indiscriminately on women and men, both old and young.

The verses following Psalm 68:11 read:

Kings and armies flee in haste;
the women at home divide the plunder.
13Even while you sleep among the sheep pens, e
the wings of my dove are sheathed with silver,
its feathers with shining gold.”
14When the Almighty f scattered the kings in the land,
it was like snow fallen on Mount Zalmon.

What is that about? Was this the message that was preached by the scattered early church?

Quoting Ellicott's commentary on verse 12:

This and the two next verses wear the air of being a fragment of those ancient battle-songs sung by the women after the defeat of the foe. The fact that they have thus been torn from their original context accounts for the great obscurity which hangs over them.

If you want to justify women elders in the church you're going have to look elsewhere than Psalm 68:11!

 

[Strong in Him]

This suggests that you think Jesus came to us at the wrong time. You will deny this. of course, but it is the natural inference. The following passage from Hebrews 1:1,2 presents a different view from yours:

On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son,a whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.b

I realise I have made this point before but you have also repeated yourself here.

How does what I wrote suggest that I think Jesus came at the wrong time?
I have no problem, and fully agree with, with Hebrews 1:1-2. God spoke to people through his prophets; some of those prophets were women.

 

[Vanellus]

How does what I wrote suggest that I think Jesus came at the wrong time?
I have no problem, and fully agree with, with Hebrews 1:1-2. God spoke to people through his prophets; some of those prophets were women.

"And actually, I would say that what was happening in NT times was also a product of culture. Women had few rights and were 2nd class citizens - or not even ranked that highly. Whereas, in OT times they seemed to be more prominent;"

According to your thinking as explained by you here, it would have been much better if Jesus had come to us when women didn't have " few rights" and when they weren't treated as "2nd class citizens". After all in OT times. they "seemed to be more prominent;"

 

[Strong in Him]

"And actually, I would say that what was happening in NT times was also a product of culture. Women had few rights and were 2nd class citizens - or not even ranked that highly. Whereas, in OT times they seemed to be more prominent;"

According to your thinking as explained by you here, it would have been much better if Jesus had come to us when women didn't have " few rights" and when they weren't treated as "2nd class citizens". After all in OT times. they "seemed to be more prominent;"

No, sorry, you have misinterpreted.
It didn't matter what society said, or did; that did not stop Jesus from treating women as people created by God.

The society, or culture of the time, said that women were unreliable witnesses and should not testify in court. Jesus chose a woman to be the first witness to the resurrection.
Women were not allowed to learn. Jesus allowed Mary to sit at his feet - which was a place reserved for student Rabbis - listen to and learn from him.
Women could easily be divorced, just by their husband writing a note. Jesus said that men and women were created by God and divorce was not his plan.

Jesus did not say, "oh dear, I've been born at the wrong time; I'm restricted by my culture" - he simply loved, healed, affirmed and valued women.
Much of what Jesus said and did challenged the practices of his day - his treatment of women was one of them. He also welcomed children and touched the unclean.

 

[3 Resurrections]

If you want to justify women elders in the church you're going have to look elsewhere than Psalm 68:11!

Yes, the scriptures are there for that. The woman which John was addressing in 2 John was one such woman whom John was commending for how those in her assembly were walking in truth. And as I have highlighted above, Paul gave Timothy instructions in 1 Timothy 5:1 as to how he was to correct erring elders that were both male and female, old and young. A "presbyteras" is a female elder, comparable to male elder "presbyteros" that Paul mentions.

 

[Vanellus]

No, sorry, you have misinterpreted.
It didn't matter what society said, or did; that did not stop Jesus from treating women as people created by God.

The society, or culture of the time, said that women were unreliable witnesses and should not testify in court. Jesus chose a woman to be the first witness to the resurrection.
Women were not allowed to learn. Jesus allowed Mary to sit at his feet - which was a place reserved for student Rabbis - listen to and learn from him.
Women could easily be divorced, just by their husband writing a note. Jesus said that men and women were created by God and divorce was not his plan.

Jesus did not say, "oh dear, I've been born at the wrong time; I'm restricted by my culture" - he simply loved, healed, affirmed and valued women.
Much of what Jesus said and did challenged the practices of his day - his treatment of women was one of them. He also welcomed children and touched the unclean.

At no point did I write (or suggest) that Jesus treated women as second class. But you wrote: " I would say that what was happening in NT times was also a product of culture. Women had few rights and were 2nd class citizens - or not even ranked that highly."

What was "happening in NT times" that was a "product of culture"? This must refer to something in the NT. What was it?

 

[Vanellus]

Yes, the scriptures are there for that. The woman which John was addressing in 2 John was one such woman whom John was commending for how those in her assembly were walking in truth. And as I have highlighted above, Paul gave Timothy instructions in 1 Timothy 5:1 as to how he was to correct erring elders that were both male and female, old and young. A "presbyteras" is a female elder, comparable to male elder "presbyteros" that Paul mentions.

Some commentators think that kyria in 2 John stands for a church rather than an individual, and is described as "elect" not elder.

Presbyteros can mean older by age rather than a particular church office, as in the parable of the prodigal son where it is used to describe the elder brother (Lk 15:25).

1 Tim 5:1
Do not rebuke an older man, but appeal to him as to a father.
Treat younger men as brothers, 2older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.

The references to fathers, brothers, mothers, sisters and crucially "younger" indicates that "elder" is being used here in its age related sense.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The references to fathers, brothers, mothers, sisters and crucially "younger" indicates that "elder" is being used here in its age related sense.

Paul is referring in this 1 Timothy 5:1-2 verses to elders in the ministry of either male or female gender, both younger and older in years.

There are other Greek words which Paul could have used if he was strictly addressing only the age factor. Paul could have used the same word for an "older man" - a "presbutes" - that Zechariah, John's father called himself in Luke 1:18. "...I am an old man (presbutes), and my wife is well stricken in years." Or Paul could have used "presbytas", which refers to an aged-in-years man in Titus 2:2. "That the aged men (presbytas) be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience." Or he could have used "presbytidas", meaning an aged-in-years woman in Titus 2:3. "The aged women (presbytidas) likewise, that they be in behavior as becometh holiness, not false accusers..."

But Paul didn't use these terms in 1 Timothy 5:1-2. He used "presbutero" and "presbuteras" instead, which carries the meaning of these being overseers in the assembly - not just ordinary senior citizens in the church.

Some commentators think that kyria in 2 John stands for a church rather than an individual, and is described as "elect" not elder.

The "elect lady" (kyria) was a specific woman that John expressed a desire to see "face to face". Her "children" were the members of the assembly that this "elect lady" was leading. John was giving this woman instructions on just who she was to admit to the fellowship and who should not be allowed entry into the assembly, if they did not follow the doctrine of Christ. This was protective shepherding that this woman was being coached in by John. She also had a fellow "sister" leading another assembly of "children", for whom John passed on greetings.

Since John already was referring to the members of the church body as "children" in this epistle, it would have been redundant to also refer to the "elect lady" as being the church, with the church as "children" under that church's leadership.

 

[Postvieww]

Christ is the head of the church. He has in the past and present used many women in many different ways and He actually can use anyone He chooses for any task He chooses.. Some controlling individuals try to silence women in the church but they have ignored passages such as:

Acts 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

The office of prophet and the act of prophesy are important in the NT church and women are not excluded!

 

[bbbbbbb]

Christ is the head of the church. He has in the past and present used many women in many different ways and He actually can use anyone He chooses for any task He chooses.. Some controlling individuals try to silence women in the church but they have ignored passages such as:

Acts 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

The office of prophet and the act of prophesy are important in the NT church and women are not excluded!

The problem is that few, if any, have any clear idea as to what "prophecy" was in the New Testament. There are several broad possibilities, as follows:

1. Foretelling future events, ranging from very small things like finding a missing shoe to major events such as the eruption of Mount Vesuvius.
2. Exhorting, but not evangelizing or teaching.
3. Evangelizing in public places, but not in the church and not exhorting or teaching.
4. Teaching, either in public or in the church.

 

[Paidiske]

If we look at very early church documents such as the Didache and the Shepherd, it becomes clear that prophecy was a public leadership role within the church (for example, the Didache gives instructions for how prophets are to preside over worship; and the Shepherd instructs that prophets minister within the church, where what they say is public, rather than in private). It's also clear that prophets did not operate independently of other leaders in the church, but in cooperation with elders, deacons and so on.