Why we should believe God created all of Nature, and what that means...

[FireDragon76]

How could you possibly know that? You can not.

Because most of the visions in the Bible are just that. Also, that is how visions are generally described outside the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

How could you possibly know that? You can not.

An Angel tells Mary in a vision that her cousin is pregnant -- it was literally true.
God tells Joseph in a dream that Herod would try to kill the infant Christ -- it was literally true.
At the trial of Christ Pilot's wife said she saw Jesus in a dream and that Pilot should not condemn him.

In Gen 6 - God tells Noah all the science he needs to build the ark to exact dimensions.
In Exodus - God tells Moses all the science he needs to build the temple to exact dimensions.

In Genesis God accurately informs Abraham about the upcoming destruction of Sodom, literal, specific, historic fact.

 

[FireDragon76]

An Angel tells Mary in a vision that her cousin is pregnant -- it was literally true.

The angel visiting Mary wasn't a vision.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

If you think about it, nature runs kind of like a computer.

No, nature really doesn't "run" like this. Unfortunately, comparing nature to the operations of a computer is a false analogy. It's almost like saying we understand God because He is like a man. But He isn't. And nature isn't.

 

[BobRyan]

An Angel tells Mary in a vision that her cousin is pregnant -- it was literally true.
God tells Joseph in a dream that Herod would try to kill the infant Christ -- it was literally true.
At the trial of Christ Pilot's wife said she saw Jesus in a dream and that Pilot should not condemn him.

In Gen 6 - God tells Noah all the science he needs to build the ark to exact dimensions.
In Exodus - God tells Moses all the science he needs to build the temple to exact dimensions.

In Genesis God accurately informs Abraham about the upcoming destruction of Sodom, literal, specific, historic fact.

The angel visiting Mary wasn't a vision.

I show you a number of examples where factually accurate, historically accurate, scientifically fact - is beyond question as presented in dreams and visions.

Is it your claim that Angels can be factually accurate but God cannot be factually accurate in a dream or vision???

Are you simply "coming up with ideas" that sometimes don't fit the text?

 

[Halbhh]

Then how do you propose that there can be a marriage between Gen 1-2 and the doctrine on origins found in evolutionism? Do you know of any text on evolution that begins with "For in six days the Lord created the heavens and the earth" or that uses statements like "And God said let the Earth bring forth land animals.. and evening and morning were the sixth day"??

I don't know of one.

I thought you had said that God says one thing about a literal 7 day creation week - but evolution is the reality of how life evolved from a simple celled organism to higher species.

Me too.

If we step back from the details in the text - to a sufficient distance we can get to the "God did something and somehow that resulted in all life on Earth coming into being over a period of time unknown... even if specified in the text".

Then from there we get to "God is creator even if not in the direct manner He specified in Gen 1 and 2" - and can look at how helpful such a concept can be.

Please try this, even if a bit more effort: first try reading the OP all the way through as an 1 single integrated whole thing -- as if it was all one paragraph or such -- and I think then you'd avoid several of the already stated wrong guesses about what I'm saying.

And it would become a lot easier to discuss what's in the OP.

For example:

The OP clearly and emphatically addressed the error in atheist's imagining evolution would somehow be independent of God.

 

[BobRyan]

And there's no solid way to "know" that God, in fact, DID create everything. We can surmise as much. We can even make dogmatic affirmations that we believe He did, but our saying these affirmations doesn't reflect that we are in an epistemologically justified position of mind in relation to His "acts" of creation.

We need to just deal with reality as it is and stop pretending that we know when we really don't.

The upshot of all of this is: atheists should also stop pretending that they're fully justified in "knowing" God didn't create anything ... ...

If God says it we are free to believe it.

As a matter of fact - that is why we are Christians in the first place.

 

[BobRyan]

Please try this, even if a bit more effort: first try reading the OP all the way through as an 1 single integrated whole thing -- as if it was all one paragraph or such -- and I think then you'd avoid several of the already stated wrong guesses about what I'm saying.

And it would become a lot easier to discuss what's in the OP.

For example:

The OP clearly and emphatically addressed the error in atheist's imagining evolution would somehow be independent of God.

In my posts I never claim that the stories about evolution must always claim to be independent of God. Rather I post that what we actually find in the Bible is not at all compatible with the stories told in the field of evolutionism. EVEN though we can all agree that some Christians are evolutionists - it still remains that the text of God's Word is not at all a kind of evolutionism and no science text on evolution uses the Genesis 1 chapter to state its doctrine on origin neither does anyone claim that Moses was a Darwinist.

 

[Divide]

And there's no solid way to "know" that God, in fact, DID create everything. We can surmise as much. We can even make dogmatic affirmations that we believe He did, but our saying these affirmations doesn't reflect that we are in an epistemologically justified position of mind in relation to His "acts" of creation.

We need to just deal with reality as it is and stop pretending that we know when we really don't.

The upshot of all of this is: atheists should also stop pretending that they're fully justified in "knowing" God didn't create anything ... ...

You are wrong. I talk to God. He talks back to me. I heard His audible voice one time also. So I can and do "know" that God did in fact create everything. You see, becoming a believer first for the trust and faith factor is when God responds and will reveal Himself to you. But not in a way that you can go show it off or prove atheists wrong on the internet, lol.

Visions involve the imaginal and symbolic, not some kind of scientific reality.

Do you realize that if God did not really exist...then there would not be any atheists in the world. None. Not possible. I see plenty of atheists in the world. Many of them are liars. They have a favorite sin or something and like running their own life.
You can't know that. You have no way of proving that God does not exist.

 

[FireDragon76]

No, nature really doesn't "run" like this. Unfortunately, comparing nature to the operations of a computer is a false analogy. It's almost like saying we understand God because He is like a man. But He isn't. And nature isn't.

A mechanistic view of nature is even being increasingly rejected by scientists themselves. Things like quantum indeterminacy have no counterpart in a digital computer.

 

[FireDragon76]

Not true.

God is fully able to accurately communicate real life events in a vision.

Real life events can be conveyed through symbols.

 

[FireDragon76]

I show you a number of examples where factually accurate, historically accurate, scientifically fact - is beyond question as presented in dreams and visions.

Is it your claim that Angels can be factually accurate but God cannot be factually accurate in a dream or vision???

Are you simply "coming up with ideas" that sometimes don't fit the text?

In scholarship of religion, "vision" has a specific meaning. It doesn't refer to any and all supernatural manifestations.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You are wrong. I talk to God. He talks back to me. I heard His audible voice one time also. So I can and do "know" that God did in fact create everything. You see, becoming a believer first for the trust and faith factor is when God responds and will reveal Himself to you. But not in a way that you can go show it off or prove atheists wrong on the internet, lol.

God talks to you? Wow. What did He say?

Do you realize that if God did not really exist...then there would not be any atheists in the world. None. Not possible. I see plenty of atheists in the world. Many of them are liars. They have a favorite sin or something and like running their own life.
You can't know that. You have no way of proving that God does not exist.

Who said anything about disproving that God exists. I have no interest in doing so. Why would I?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

A mechanistic view of nature is even being increasingly rejected by scientists themselves. Things like quantum indeterminacy have no counterpart in a digital computer.

Yep. That's what I've read.

 

[Halbhh]

Visions involve the imaginal and symbolic, not some kind of scientific reality.

That's close on one part to what I was trying to explain --- I tried to explain how visions are given in a general clear way in in the OP with wording I hope might avoid most possible accidental side-connotations/issues that can side rail some readers. That last third or so of the OP. A vision is a created communication, instead of a video recording, is one of the things I pointed out. I wonder if I succeeded.
I'm unsure what portion of people will read through my long OP post, but I hope many will, and it will help more to understand more about the chapter.

 

[Halbhh]

The upshot of all of this is: atheists should also stop pretending that they're fully justified in "knowing" God didn't create anything ... ...

Yes, perhaps I need to make a version of this OP for atheists at some point soon...

 

[Diamond7]

Then God said

I am no fan of Frances Schaffer but in his book, He calls DNA the Language of God.

Some people believe all of the universe started off as a seed. Science tells us in the beginning the universe was very compact and contained a lot of heat. According to Tyson all matter and all the energy in the universe was one trillioneth the size of the period at the end of this sentence.

 

[Diamond7]

That means not only the things in nature, but also nature itself, the design of nature -- how nature works -- all aspects of nature!

They are pretty much married. The elements are created in a Star and the laws that govern those elements seem to come with them from their beginning. In the case of Atoms, what attracts and what does not attract.

 

[Divide]

I am no fan of Frances Schaffer but in his book, He calls DNA the Language of God.

Some people believe all of the universe started off as a seed. Science tells us in the beginning the universe was very compact and contained a lot of heat. According to Tyson all matter and all the energy in the universe was one trillioneth the size of the period at the end of this sentence.

I can remember walking home from school and saying there's your mom and point to a mud puddle
to one of my friends. We didn't believe it when they were teaching it to us. Lol!

I saw a video the other day with some guy named Bruce Lipton I think and he says now they know that we have about 50 trillion genes in our body and each one of those is like a computer chip, with receptors on the outside. The receptors pick up signals from the brain and respond to that at gene level. The genes are fed by thoughts. Our beain interprets our thoughts and sends out the right chemical mixture so those genes wil respond to it and we do. All of a sudden we're angry or something.

In summary, our thoughts program our genes. If you are always negative or complaining then you might just get cancer or something. If the OT is types and shadows of the future, then where and when we live is types and shadows of heaven?

 

[Divide]

A mechanistic view of nature is even being increasingly rejected by scientists themselves. Things like quantum indeterminacy have no counterpart in a digital computer.

Quantum science is the most valid science that we have!