Why does Calvinism have a “cage stage”?

Cormack

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Maniac Methodists, obnoxious orthodox, kooky catholics, we may meet one someday, but there’s not a widely recognised phenomenon of these things. But in Calvinism there is, it’s called the cage stage. The late R.C. Sproul (himself a Calvinist) described cage stagers as obnoxious, insisting they’re “so aggressive and impatient that they should be locked in a cage for a little while so that they can cool down and mature a little in the faith.”

With the Bible insisting on good fruits and admirable qualities springing out from our conversion, why do so many Calvinists start off their believing lives as jerks?

Calvinist views are welcome too, of course. :) God bless everyone.
 
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A_Thinker

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Maniac Methodists, obnoxious orthodox, kooky catholics, we may meet one someday, but there’s not a widely recognised phenomenon of these things. But in Calvinism there is, it’s called the cage stage. The late R.C. Sproul (himself a Calvinist) described cage stagers as obnoxious, insisting they’re “so aggressive and impatient that they should be locked in a cage for a little while so that they can cool down and mature a little in the faith.”
I've experienced this ... from Calvinists I have known.

I oftened wondered how they hoped to effectively promote their beliefs, ... while, simultaneously, being so obnoxious ...
 
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Conclusive

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In the "cage stage" you lose sight of Christ in order to adhere to the realms of theology. While theology is meant to bring the Christian closer to God, it often becomes a tool for selfish man to elevate himself above his brothers. Christ's perfect life and complete sacrifice become second rate information in comparison to the addicting, mind exercising subject of TULIP. Every man wants to become an idealist to the wrong set of ideals, they separate theology from soteriology, and forget about upholding Christ's ideals.
 
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Tra Phull

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"The addicting, mind exercising subject of TULIP"

What part of brain is exercised - hypothalamus?

I have never before encountered the term "Maniac Methodist"

How many decades does the Cage Stage last for those afflicted by Calvinism? Is it ever fatal?
 
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Cormack

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Hah, today's the first time I've ever heard of this term. Learn something new every day. Well new to me anyway. So is this thread an attack on Calvanists or what's the purpose otherwise ?

Honestly I hope nobody takes this as an excuse to “attack” Calvinists. R.C. Sproul wasn’t attacking Calvinists, still he recognised the reality of cage stage Calvinism.

It would be incredible to read from an ex cage stager, somebody who’s come out of the phase and could say what was going on. What’s the appeal? Does it come up owing to a person’s individual psychology, community dynamics, or is it something spiritual?

If any Calvinists are currently going through their own cage stage, obviously they won’t be best pleased with the topic :(;) They can (and probably should) avoid the discussion.
 
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Radagast

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But in Calvinism there is, it’s called the cage stage. The late R.C. Sproul (himself a Calvinist) described cage stagers as obnoxious, insisting they’re “so aggressive and impatient that they should be locked in a cage for a little while so that they can cool down and mature a little in the faith.”

The same is true of anybody who has recently converted to a different kind of Christianity, and is on fire with new enthusiasm. The fire sometimes has a rough side, because we're all still sinners.

But I'm really not keen on "attack threads" like this, so I'm not going to say any more.
 
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Duke of Stratford

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I certainly don’t think this applies to all Calvinists, not even all new Calvinists. I’ve done a bit of research on the phenomenon, though. There is, regardless of anything else, a stereotype of the pushy Calvinist. It is unfortunate, especially since, as I’ve seen it pointed out numerous times, Calvinist theology should humble a person, not make them proud.

I think it’s a general problem that I see among people who get REALLY into the intellectual side of theology. Sometimes things become more about theology than faith itself. I’m sure that it usually doesn’t come from a conscious place of pride. In fact, like R.C. Sproul says, I believe it comes from a genuine place of wanting to share the truth. But I think that can sometimes lead to what I’d call a humble-pride: the idea of understanding a non-mainstream belief and being really proud of the knowledge it gives you. I think C.S. Lewis said something along the lines of “Nothing destroys humility like the recognition that one is humble.” Not an exact quote, but you get the picture. Like I said, it’s some thing I see in a bunch of different branches of theology, but I think certain Calvinists have more of a reputation for it. maybe it comes up because Calvinism, while not the predominant theological system in modern evangelism, has been on the rise for some time. There’s something exciting about being part of an intellectual movement!

I think when people discuss theology in general, we need to be more gracious toward people who have different theology than us. That goes for everyone. On these forums, I see more Featured threads involving people engaging in heated debates about specific pieces of theological doctrine than building one another up in Christ. I’m not saying that theological debate is a bad thing or that we shouldn’t do it, but it can be a stumbling block that I think a lot of us don’t really recognize. I’ve struggled with doubt a lot, and seeing intense theological debates only makes the problem worse. It’s really discouraging to see Christians not engaging with one another with mutual respect, but with a sort of humble haughtiness over nonessential doctrine. Call out blatant untruth, yes, but be gracious when you’re just discussing ideas.

I’d like to comment that I’m somewhere in the middle of the debate (I think both sides are trying to figure out things that our little human brains can never fully understand), and I really wish that both Calvinists and Arminians would be a bit more gracious to the other. My favorite speakers and theologians from both sides of the issue are those that are willing to engage with grace, truth, and respect for those who disagree. They aren’t our opponents; they are our brothers and sisters in Christ. We can’t forget about that.
 
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Duke of Stratford

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Armenian is a nationality, Arminian is a theological position.
Calvanists is a misspelling of Calvinists
Argh! I was using speech-to-text on my phone and didn’t notice the typos! Going back and fixing them :sweatsmile:
 
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Cormack

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I certainly don’t think this applies to all Calvinists, not even all new Calvinists. I’ve done a bit of research on the phenomenon, though. There is, regardless of anything else, a stereotype of the pushy Calvinist. It is unfortunate, especially since, as I’ve seen it pointed out numerous times, Calvinist theology should humble a person, not make them proud.

I think it’s a general problem that I see among people who get REALLY into the intellectual side of theology. Sometimes things become more about theology than faith itself. I’m sure that it usually doesn’t come from a conscious place of pride. In fact, like R.C. Sproul says, I believe it comes from a genuine place of wanting to share the truth. But I think that can sometimes lead to what I’d call a humble-pride: the idea of understanding a non-mainstream belief and being really proud of the knowledge it gives you. I think C.S. Lewis said something along the lines of “Nothing destroys humility like the recognition that one is humble.” Not an exact quote, but you get the picture. Like I said, it’s some thing I see in a bunch of different branches of theology, but I think certain Calvinists have more of a reputation for it. maybe it comes up because Calvinism, while not the predominant theological system in modern evangelism, has been on the rise for some time. There’s something exciting about being part of an intellectual movement!

I think when people discuss theology in general, we need to be more gracious toward people who have different theology than us. That goes for everyone. On these forums, I see more Featured threads involving people engaging in heated debates about specific pieces of theological doctrine than building one another up in Christ. I’m not saying that theological debate is a bad thing or that we shouldn’t do it, but it can be a stumbling block that I think a lot of us don’t really recognize. I’ve struggled with doubt a lot, and seeing intense theological debates only makes the problem worse. It’s really discouraging to see Christians not engaging with one another with mutual respect, but with a sort of humble haughtiness over nonessential doctrine. Call out blatant untruth, yes, but be gracious when you’re just discussing ideas.

I’d like to comment that I’m somewhere in the middle of the debate (I think both sides are trying to figure out things that our little human brains can never fully understand), and I really wish that both Calvinists and Arminians would be a bit more gracious to the other. My favorite speakers and theologians from both sides of the issue are those that are willing to engage with grace, truth, and respect for those who disagree. They aren’t our opponents; they are our brothers and sisters in Christ. We can’t forget about that.

That’s an excellent reply. :thumbsup: Agree or disagree you were properly answering the question. How different is your idea of “humble-pride” from arrogance, in your opinion? I only ask because Conclusive ^^^^ gave arrogance as their answer.

I've experienced this ... from Calvinists I have known. I oftened wondered how they hoped to effectively promote their beliefs, ... while, simultaneously, being so obnoxious .

Same. In person it reaches a point where every conversation about Christianity becomes an avenue to talk about proof texts for Calvinism.

The cross? “Well that’s about Romans 9.”

Jesus spoke in parables? “Well that’s because God rejects people before they were born.”

Want a toffee? “They’re hard, hard like the way God hardened pharaoh’s heart :heart:

They’re eager to promote what makes their view stand out, but it comes at the expense of some basic social skills. Although, to be fair, maybe it’s part of the youth movement. The older Calvinists I know aren’t so on point with the Calvinistic sales pitch, they’re actually very nice guys.

Sounds derogatory to me, so do the other names.

They’re examples of alliteration, not real handles people go by. They’re way out examples of something real, namely cage stage Calvinism. Sorry to disappoint anybody else reading but there is no such thing as a maniac Methodist. :p

I think when readers dislike a particular subject they either deny, derail or denounce the entire convo, it’s like Christians are too sensitive to talk about Christian issues.

But I'm really not keen on "attack threads" like this, so I'm not going to say any more.

Thanks for the reply and that’s very mature. We shouldn’t indulge in topics that bring out the worst in us. God bless you and keep you.
 
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