What is the non Catholic view of this?

[prodromos]

So your answer is to beat around the bush and not take a stance? Why not just say St. Bernadette is a liar or the Blessed Virgin Mary has bad grammar or that it is a demon and the Catholic Church is evil preaching doctrines of demons? Wouldn't that be easier. Let your yes be yes and your no be no.

There are hundreds of miracles attributed to St Nektarios and he was extremely vocal in his opposition to the papacy. What stand do you take on St Nektarios, whose body remained completely whole for 20 years after his death, his hair and nails continuing to grow. The hospital room in which he died smelled so strongly of myrrh that they could no longer use it for other patients. When the nurses were undressing his body, they threw his jumper onto the next bed and the cripple patient it fell on was immediately healed.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

<Snip> They do not break into Lutheran or Methodist Churches or others ect to do that. They know the presense is real. All one has to do is listen to a former Satanist and They have "black Mass". they do not have black "Service". Its a sacrificial mockery of the sacrifice of Mass. So If the sacrifice of MAss is a devlish doctrine rejected by reformers then why does Satan mock it so much. Does not the devil mock what he hates the most? I think these are strong evidences for the Catholic faith and her dogmatic truths.

Actually, they do. Back in the 90's there were a huge number of Lutheran and Catholic Churches in Southern Ontario that were broken into. The only things that were taken were the Sacred vessels and the sacramental bread and wine (both reserved and unconsecrated). They eventually tracked down these persons and turns out they were selling them to satanists. And yes, this is strong evidence for the dogmatic and doctrinal truths regarding the Eucharist.

 

[Athanasias]

There are hundreds of miracles attributed to St Nektarios and he was extremely vocal in his opposition to the papacy. What stand do you take on St Nektarios, whose body remained completely whole for 20 years after his death, his hair and nails continuing to grow. The hospital room in which he died smelled so strongly of myrrh that they could no longer use it for other patients. When the nurses were undressing his body, they threw his jumper onto the next bed and the cripple patient it fell on was immediately healed.

It depends. Was the miracles you speak of related to the doctrine of his rejection of the office of the Papacy? Or was it just a miracle. One can be a saint who even wielded miracles and be holy and still be in error on some things. The point I am trying to make is the miracles themselves in the Catholic Church (not just the individuals) seem to confirm Catholic Dogma specifically.

 

[Athanasias]

Actually, they do. Back in the 90's there were a huge number of Lutheran and Catholic Churches in Southern Ontario that were broken into. The only things that were taken were the Sacred vessels and the sacramental bread and wine (both reserved and unconsecrated). They eventually tracked down these persons and turns out they were selling them to satanists. And yes, this is strong evidence for the dogmatic and doctrinal truths regarding the Eucharist.

Thanks Mark for this good answer. I appreciate this discussion. That is a first I ever heard of any Satanist breaking into any Lutheran Churches. Actually it makes sense since they were selling these to Satanist as you say so they were most likely amateur non satanist stealing these and have little to no understanding of these things as typical. This is because Lutherans use similar bread and have similar vessels in appearance so amatuers would not know or care they figure they can sell it for a quick buck and no one will know the difference. But Satanical priest know the difference. I have heard enough former Satanist on this. Ask any FBI agent who has worked on cases of these or former Satanical priest in high echelon satanism.Sounds like this group just wanted to make a quick buck I bet. True Satanist will only steal consecrated host and they can tell which are and which are not. I have heard several former Satanist and know a few FBI agents and Cops to know this well. Satanist have caused many tabernacles and Catholic Churches problems to the point where at least in one Church armed guards had be posted at the Church to make sure they would not steal the consecrated host. In the Satanical circles I have read about and heard they do not go after unconsecrated host because they know there is no power in that. And in some I know that this seems plausible that the Lutheran Churches in certain parts of the world may be affected by this too(As well as EO) in North america given that some Lutherans have received Authentic apostolic succession (usually through Orthodox Bishops) and can validly consecrate the Eucharist which would result in the real presence or what we would call transubstantiation. Satanist have a negative gift of knowledge(a gift from Satan) to know which host are consecrated and which are not. Its a diabolical gift of hatred for Jesus and parrelalls the love one has the Eucharist but in a opposite sense. Ask any former Satanical priest they only go after consecrated host. If unconsecrated host were gone after this suggest lower echelon satanist like teens or just non satanist stealing these. Upper echelon satanical priest only go after consecrated host to defile them because they are Christ and not mere bread.

Here is an article on the this by a priest who interviewed a former Satanist who did black masses. its short and informative reiterating what I have said and others have known:

http://saintfactory.com/satanism-the-eucharist/


Negative evidence for the Catholic truth and faith hear is very powerful.


This brings up another crucial point I feel is rarely looked upon or answered. As the article also talks about that I linked It seems the ex Satanist and higher echelon satanical priest mock the Catholic Mass, and sacraments and Mary and saints and not protestant services. They fear the Catholic Sacramental spirituality and system and mock it primarily, as one former satanist Betty Brennan has said in her talks after her reversion to the Church.

Here is the question . If Satanist and satanical priest have "black Mass" ( they do not have black "Service") does this not show us something about the Catholic doctrine of the Sacrifice of Mass and its value. Its a sacrificial mockery of the Holy sacrifice of Mass and other Catholic sacraments. They also mock the intercession of saints. So If the sacrifice of Mass is a devilish false doctrine as taught by protestant reformers then why does Satan mock it so much? Does not the devil mock what he hates the most? If it was already false sacrificial worship as non catholics suggest (Luther and others reformers all rejected the sacrificial aspect of the Mass, I did a formal debate on this with one Lutheran here named Bread alone) then the Devil and his cohorts would have no reason to mock it. But that is the principle thing he mocks is Catholic Mass and dogma. Again they do not have black " worship Service" where preaching alone is mocked but rather Satanist have "black mass" perverting and making fun of the whole Eucharistic and especially sacrificial aspect of the mass Catholics have (which was rejected by protestants). Part of that perversion is taking a consecrated host which is Christ from a Catholic Church and spitting on it, defecating on it, and vilifying it in satanical ritual. I think these are strong evidences for the Catholic faith and her dogmatic truths.What would you say?

 

[Athanasias]

Another red flag right there.

Why?

 

[prodromos]

Why?

Because it is inconsistent with the way miracles have occurred throughout the history of the Church. I can only think of one case which might be considered similar, but that was when a specific request was made of St Euphymia at the Council of Chalcedon in 451. Some might consider the coming of the Holy Fire every Pascha to Jesus tomb in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre to be of a similar nature, but I don't consider it such.

Can you name any other miracles which demonstrated some dogmatic truth in the history of the Church? There have been plenty of times where such could have proved useful, so why haven't there been any?

 

[MKJ]

I often get this question ignored when I ask it from many non Catholics. I assume they are trying to be nice. In the Catholic faith we have many documented "doctrinal miracles" or miracles associated with dogma's. Such as the miracles at Lourdes(a place where the BVM told St. Bernadette that She was "the Immaculate Conception"). This Shrine which has 69 miracles recognized by the Vatican so far and thousands of non recognized ones by the medical community and locals has brough many to the brink of faith.. Medical science has been puzzled by these and even some atheist doctors who have seen the healings have been brought to the brink of conversion because of these. So what do protestant do with these? They either have to say that these are made up(like the Atheist medical materialist do) or that they are from Satan(like the Fundies do). But the fruits seem to bring about conversion to Jesus Christ. Does this not point toward Mary's real intercession and her Immaculate Conception?? Just curious what do non-Catholic Christians do with these. And the same goes for the Eucharistic Miracles like that of Lanciano which are on display today where a host turned into visible flesh and wine visible blood which has been scientifically tested also? Does this not point toward the Catholic dogma?

What about the strong negative evidence that Satanist mock the Mass and not just any worshio service. Satanist also break into Catholic Churches and steal consecrated host to vilify in black Mass. They do not break into Lutheran or Methodist Churches or others ect to do that. They know the presense is real. All one has to do is listen to a former Satanist and They have "black Mass". they do not have black "Service". Its a sacrificial mockery of the sacrifice of Mass. So If the sacrifice of MAss is a devlish doctrine rejected by reformers then why does Satan mock it so much. Does not the devil mock what he hates the most? I think these are strong evidences for the Catholic faith and her dogmatic truths.

I don't know that these things really give me a problem. That being said, I am more inclined to be skeptical of some of them than a lot of Catholics seem to be.

For example, I don't think that just because some people seem to have their faith increased is necessarily a sign that a miracle is not of demonic origin. I think demons are quite happy to taint the faith of a believer in a way that is detrimental to the soul of the person involved. What looks and feels like a more fervent faith isn't always better. Think for instance about the thin line that can exist between a good and healthy patriotism - love of one's country - and nationalism. Many people don't see the difference or see it quite incorrectly, but one of them is a more or less perverted form of the other. faith, the religious life, even prayer, can suffer from infection.

I also think it is worthwhile to look at the historical incidents of these kinds of miracles. A lot of them have their origins in a period which IMO was not a very healthy one for Catholic doctrine. These ideas of the Body and Blood becoming fleshly for example - people don't seem to realize that sort of thing is not in fact very in line with the most classic doctrines of transubstantiation, but that during that period of history there were a lot of very superstitious things going on around the Eucharist. What do Catholics make of the fact that a lot of these things were not happening in the early church or were very rare? That they haven't been common in the Eastern churches? Was the outcome of this kind of focus on miracles with the Eucharist a positive one for the Church? I tend to think not given how closely it is associated with one of the major schisms in its history and the rejection of thinking about the Eucharist as fleshly at all.

Looking at miracles more broadly in other bodies, they do occur outside the Catholic church. Interestingly, for the most part they seem to reflect the beliefs of the group you find them in. (There are exceptions, like a baptist with stigmata for example - but you can actually induce stigmata through hypnotism in some cases, so....) Go to a Pentecostal church and they will show you the Spirit at work in the congregation at any service, and you may see all kinds of things you won't see in a Catholic service (except in charismatic services, influenced by Pentecostalism...) You can find stories of miracles in evangelical circles quite easily - they aren't "official" but that is true of much of the history of the Catholic Church as well so hardly a major problem.

As for Satanists - I don't think I would consider their "doctrinal" points to be evidence of anything true or holy. A lot of them are kids out to make a statement, and Catholicism seems mysterious on tv. As for serious Satanists, their belief system is a kind of systematized narcissism, and religious items are important for their symbolic quality, not because they really think it is Jesus body or blood.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I often get this question ignored when I ask it from many non Catholics. I assume they are trying to be nice. In the Catholic faith we have many documented "doctrinal miracles" or miracles associated with dogma's. Such as the miracles at Lourdes(a place where the BVM told St. Bernadette that She was "the Immaculate Conception"). This Shrine which has 69 miracles recognized by the Vatican so far and thousands of non recognized ones by the medical community and locals has brough many to the brink of faith.. Medical science has been puzzled by these and even some atheist doctors who have seen the healings have been brought to the brink of conversion because of these. So what do protestant do with these? They either have to say that these are made up(like the Atheist medical materialist do) or that they are from Satan(like the Fundies do). But the fruits seem to bring about conversion to Jesus Christ. Does this not point toward Mary's real intercession and her Immaculate Conception?? Just curious what do non-Catholic Christians do with these. And the same goes for the Eucharistic Miracles like that of Lanciano which are on display today where a host turned into visible flesh and wine visible blood which has been scientifically tested also? Does this not point toward the Catholic dogma?

What about the strong negative evidence that Satanist mock the Mass and not just any worshio service. Satanist also break into Catholic Churches and steal consecrated host to vilify in black Mass. They do not break into Lutheran or Methodist Churches or others ect to do that. They know the presense is real. All one has to do is listen to a former Satanist and They have "black Mass". they do not have black "Service". Its a sacrificial mockery of the sacrifice of Mass. So If the sacrifice of MAss is a devlish doctrine rejected by reformers then why does Satan mock it so much. Does not the devil mock what he hates the most? I think these are strong evidences for the Catholic faith and her dogmatic truths.

The way I see it on miracles to prove dogma is, miracles were a way of authentication prophecy in the Old Testament, but apparently that's not the way anymore, we have a lot of conflicting protestant doctrines that have been authenticated by signs and wonders.
.
So much as Satanists using catholic eucharist in their ritual service, this may stretch back to the middle ages, they're probably luciferian satanists.
.
Mockery in and of itself is not proof of God being on your side, otherwise, many many conflicting doctrines are simultaneously correct and Gospel.

 

[MKJ]

I would also say, that while I think medical miracles happen, they are probably among the most difficult to show that they are in fact miraculous, as opposed to just mysterious. that "atheist" doctors confirm them is pretty irrelevant IMO - things like this also happen in other denominations, other religions, and in people without religion. Hardly an argument for Catholicism.

I would be very hesitant to use this stuff to "teach" people about Catholicism. My theology is pretty amenable to Catholic theology, more Catholic than a lot of Catholics, but it would be a huge annoyance to me. I would drop out of an RCIA class that taught that and complain to the priest.

 

[Athanasias]

Can you name any other miracles which demonstrated some dogmatic truth in the history of the Church? There have been plenty of times where such could have proved useful, so why haven't there been any?

Sure no problem. I think God has been consistent with showing his truths through miracles. For example the plagues on Pharaoh in Exodus demonstrate the truth of the Judeo Christian doctrine of the One true God of Israel who conquers the false gods of Egypt. In the first century Christ did many miracle such as turning water into wine and calming the sea showing He has power over nature which is a evidence of the Christian Dogma of his Divinity. In the late second century early 3rd century the vision of the martyrs Sts. Perpetua and Felicity demonstrated the reality of purgatory in the early Church and the need to continue the Jewish tradition of prayers for the dead.

The earliest Eucharistic miracle showing the reality of transubstantiation that we can trace back in history(at least at this time) dates to the 7th century at Lanciano and is still seen today . There is a book documented the hundred of eucharistic miracles in history. many of them tested by science even today. In fact in 2007 or 08 in St. Louis Diocese info and pictures of these miracles went on display at many Catholic Churches in the area for all to read and see. So I have no problem with St. Bernadette(whose body is incorrupt) seeing the Blessed Virgin, and telling the Church that she referred to herself as "the Immaculate Conception" listening to her and digging until water came up and telling the Church to build a Shrine on which many are healed even today which implies that Mary's Maternal intercession is real and God works through her and that She is truly Immaculately conceived.

So yeah I think God is consistent in many ways in history. That just my 2 cents.

 

[Athanasias]

I would also say, that while I think medical miracles happen, they are probably among the most difficult to show that they are in fact miraculous, as opposed to just mysterious. that "atheist" doctors confirm them is pretty irrelevant IMO - things like this also happen in other denominations, other religions, and in people without religion. Hardly an argument for Catholicism.

I would be very hesitant to use this stuff to "teach" people about Catholicism. My theology is pretty amenable to Catholic theology, more Catholic than a lot of Catholics, but it would be a huge annoyance to me. I would drop out of an RCIA class that taught that and complain to the priest.

Sorry you feel that way and are so skeptical. I think there is plenty of evidence for these. I love the Atheist doctor who doubted his dying patient when she went to lourdes and ended up converting because of this. Unsolved mysteries has this story documented. I love the one Doctor/ scientist( I think his name was Dr. Roman Chucky) on a video for recent Eucharistic miracles I have who actually tested these and signed off on a modern Eucharistic miracle and said "That a consecrated host is oozing real human blood and continues to do so is beyond the narrowness of science" I have had great success teaching students adults and 7th-high school theology using all these evidences with sacred scripture and sacred apostolic tradition (with the permission of the priest) and these classes have been highly successful. Truth is truth God gives us these miracles for a reason and often times it helps strengthen the Catholic claim and bring non believers to the brink of faith. I have showed videos of these to them and the students eat them up.

 

[Athanasias]

The way I see it on miracles to prove dogma is, miracles were a way of authentication prophecy in the Old Testament, but apparently that's not the way anymore, we have a lot of conflicting protestant doctrines that have been authenticated by signs and wonders.
.
So much as Satanists using catholic eucharist in their ritual service, this may stretch back to the middle ages, they're probably luciferian satanists.
.
Mockery in and of itself is not proof of God being on your side, otherwise, many many conflicting doctrines are simultaneously correct and Gospel.

I would politely disagree. Its not just mockery its mockery directly from Satan and his priest. That should tell us something. Know your enemy. Satanist do not have "Black Worship Services" They pervert the Sacrifice of Mass and have Black Mass. That is thier main ritual. They can even tell you which host is consecrated and which is not. This is central for thier perversion. And Yeah if Satan mocks the Mass and real presence of the Eucharist the most that should tell me something about the mass and Eucharist(its most sacred to God). Satanist know this and former ones admit it. If the reformers were right and the sacrifice of Mass is blasphemous and evil then Satan would have no use to mock it. He would mock mere preaching services of protestants. But the main ritual in Satanical worship is the black Mass. A perversion of the Catholic Mass. FBI are aware of this as well as former Satanist themsevles.

Here is an article from just one interview with a former Satanist. http://saintfactory.com/satanism-the-eucharist/

it is powerful negative evidence that many people and many of my students find compelling and rightly so.

 

[James Is Back]

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[James Is Back]

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[MarkRohfrietsch]

Thanks Mark for this good answer. I appreciate this discussion. That is a first I ever heard of any Satanist breaking into any Lutheran Churches. Actually it makes sense since they were selling these to Satanist as you say so they were most likely amateur non satanist stealing these and have little to no understanding of these things as typical. This is because Lutherans use similar bread and have similar vessels in appearance so amatuers would not know or care they figure they can sell it for a quick buck and no one will know the difference. But Satanical priest know the difference. I have heard enough former Satanist on this. Ask any FBI agent who has worked on cases of these or former Satanical priest in high echelon satanism.Sounds like this group just wanted to make a quick buck I bet. True Satanist will only steal consecrated host and they can tell which are and which are not. I have heard several former Satanist and know a few FBI agents and Cops to know this well. Satanist have caused many tabernacles and Catholic Churches problems to the point where at least in one Church armed guards had be posted at the Church to make sure they would not steal the consecrated host. In the Satanical circles I have read about and heard they do not go after unconsecrated host because they know there is no power in that. And in some I know that this seems plausible that the Lutheran Churches in certain parts of the world may be affected by this too(As well as EO) in North america given that some Lutherans have received Authentic apostolic succession (usually through Orthodox Bishops) and can validly consecrate the Eucharist which would result in the real presence or what we would call transubstantiation. Satanist have a negative gift of knowledge(a gift from Satan) to know which host are consecrated and which are not. Its a diabolical gift of hatred for Jesus and parrelalls the love one has the Eucharist but in a opposite sense. Ask any former Satanical priest they only go after consecrated host. If unconsecrated host were gone after this suggest lower echelon satanist like teens or just non satanist stealing these. Upper echelon satanical priest only go after consecrated host to defile them because they are Christ and not mere bread.

Here is an article on the this by a priest who interviewed a former Satanist who did black masses. its short and informative reiterating what I have said and others have known:

http://saintfactory.com/satanism-the-eucharist/


Negative evidence for the Catholic truth and faith hear is very powerful.


This brings up another crucial point I feel is rarely looked upon or answered. As the article also talks about that I linked It seems the ex Satanist and higher echelon satanical priest mock the Catholic Mass, and sacraments and Mary and saints and not protestant services. They fear the Catholic Sacramental spirituality and system and mock it primarily, as one former satanist Betty Brennan has said in her talks after her reversion to the Church.

Here is the question . If Satanist and satanical priest have "black Mass" ( they do not have black "Service") does this not show us something about the Catholic doctrine of the Sacrifice of Mass and its value. Its a sacrificial mockery of the Holy sacrifice of Mass and other Catholic sacraments. They also mock the intercession of saints. So If the sacrifice of Mass is a devilish false doctrine as taught by protestant reformers then why does Satan mock it so much? Does not the devil mock what he hates the most? If it was already false sacrificial worship as non catholics suggest (Luther and others reformers all rejected the sacrificial aspect of the Mass, I did a formal debate on this with one Lutheran here named Bread alone) then the Devil and his cohorts would have no reason to mock it. But that is the principle thing he mocks is Catholic Mass and dogma. Again they do not have black " worship Service" where preaching alone is mocked but rather Satanist have "black mass" perverting and making fun of the whole Eucharistic and especially sacrificial aspect of the mass Catholics have (which was rejected by protestants). Part of that perversion is taking a consecrated host which is Christ from a Catholic Church and spitting on it, defecating on it, and vilifying it in satanical ritual. I think these are strong evidences for the Catholic faith and her dogmatic truths.What would you say?

We are not here to debate who's Mass is efficacious and valid. Yes, I know that Catholics think that when we Lutherans celebrate the Eucharist it's about as effective as a steer trying to breed a heifer. Truth is there are many instances where miracles have occurred directly from the administration/reception of the Eucharist; certainly spiritual healing, but physical healing as well. I, personally, experienced an almost instantaneous reversal of a grave illness immediately following the reception of Christ's body and blood when my Pastor celebrated the Mass at my hospital bedside. Therefore I know that our Lutheran Mass is both efficacious and valid.

Yes, the thieves were satanists also, and it was more the fact that these sacred vessels were consecrated to the service of our Lord and that their use was to hold the very body and blood of our Lord.

Certainly the Mass is a sacrifice (what we do) and a Sacrament (what God does for us), but it is not, as some believed and taught, and as our confessions state; a re-sacrifice of our Lord's body and blood. Rather, Christ's very body and blood, given and shed for us, so that we may share in that sacrifice on the cross, so that our sins may be forgiven. Such is how confessional Lutherans view the Eucharist. Efficacy is dependent on the Words of our Lord united with the bread and the wine. It does not depend on the Papal succession of laying on of hands; that makes the Eucharist partially dependent on the doings and authority of men, not exclusively on the power and authority of God.

 

[hiphopopotomus]

God stopped miracles when movie and personal cameras which could provide proof of such things became widespread.Nowadays nearly everybody has one in the form of a mobile phone.One would expect an exponential increase in documented cases of miracles -not a rapid decline.

It always amazes me when survivors are interviewed after some sort of disaster and claim that they were saved by a miracle of God.So the other people who died were not worthy of being saved?Imagine hearing that if you are one of the loved ones of a victim of such an event.

Miracles are nonsense.

 

[prodromos]

Sure no problem. I think God has been consistent with showing his truths through miracles. For example the plagues on Pharaoh in Exodus demonstrate the truth of the Judeo Christian doctrine of the One true God of Israel who conquers the false gods of Egypt. In the first century Christ did many miracle such as turning water into wine and calming the sea showing He has power over nature which is a evidence of the Christian Dogma of his Divinity. In the late second century early 3rd century the vision of the martyrs Sts. Perpetua and Felicity demonstrated the reality of purgatory in the early Church and the need to continue the Jewish tradition of prayers for the dead.

The earliest Eucharistic miracle showing the reality of transubstantiation that we can trace back in history(at least at this time) dates to the 7th century at Lanciano and is still seen today . There is a book documented the hundred of eucharistic miracles in history. many of them tested by science even today. In fact in 2007 or 08 in St. Louis Diocese info and pictures of these miracles went on display at many Catholic Churches in the area for all to read and see. So I have no problem with St. Bernadette(whose body is incorrupt) seeing the Blessed Virgin, and telling the Church that she referred to herself as "the Immaculate Conception" listening to her and digging until water came up and telling the Church to build a Shrine on which many are healed even today which implies that Mary's Maternal intercession is real and God works through her and that She is truly Immaculately conceived.

So yeah I think God is consistent in many ways in history. That just my 2 cents.

Sorry, I'm not seeing where these miracles/visions occurred as confirmation of doctrine or dogma the Church was presenting at the time. As I see it you haven't presented any examples consistent with the circumstances surrounding St Bernadette's vision (whose face and hands are actually wax masks covering her blackened skin)

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I would politely disagree. Its not just mockery its mockery directly from Satan and his priest. That should tell us something. Know your enemy. Satanist do not have "Black Worship Services" They pervert the Sacrifice of Mass and have Black Mass. That is thier main ritual. They can even tell you which host is consecrated and which is not. This is central for thier perversion. And Yeah if Satan mocks the Mass and real presence of the Eucharist the most that should tell me something about the mass and Eucharist(its most sacred to God). Satanist know this and former ones admit it. If the reformers were right and the sacrifice of Mass is blasphemous and evil then Satan would have no use to mock it. He would mock mere preaching services of protestants. But the main ritual in Satanical worship is the black Mass. A perversion of the Catholic Mass. FBI are aware of this as well as former Satanist themsevles.

Here is an article from just one interview with a former Satanist. http://saintfactory.com/satanism-the-eucharist/

it is powerful negative evidence that many people and many of my students find compelling and rightly so.

I recall a passage in Acts where Paul told a demon to get out of a girl because he didn't need the devil to proclaim the gospel, God is enough. This is the fallacy that I see in the logic of your post. God is proof enough.

 

[Athanasias]

I recall a passage in Acts where Paul told a demon to get out of a girl because he didn't need the devil to proclaim the gospel, God is enough. This is the fallacy that I see in the logic of your post. God is proof enough.

I have no idea what you mean?

 

[Athanasias]

Sorry, I'm not seeing where these miracles/visions occurred as confirmation of doctrine or dogma the Church was presenting at the time. As I see it you haven't presented any examples consistent with the circumstances surrounding St Bernadette's vision (whose face and hands are actually wax masks covering her blackened skin)

Ok I will kick the dust off of my shoes then and move on. I have done all I can do. May God be with you brother.

In Jesus through Mary,

Athanasias