What does it mean to speak the truth in love?

AlexDTX

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 13, 2015
4,191
2,818
✟328,934.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
. How to do so in the love of christ is just discussing the gospel...you're making it harder then it really is and this is coming from a guy with experience in the area. It's just like having a conversation sharing the gospel and at times that conversation can become a bit tense (if you're lets say discussing politics for example) or at times that conversation can be chill and kind (if you're lets say sharing a testimony or you and the other person or friend or relative or whoever you're ministering to has come to an agreement somewhere).
I think just discussing the Gospel is a simplistic view of what it means to speak the truth in love. As has already been discussed by others and myself in this thread it includes walking the talk with a life of love, it includes having wisdom of knowing when to speak and when not to speak, it includes sensitivity to the promptings of the Holy Spirit, it includes knowing how to control one's tone of voice, it includes being a good listener and understanding what the other person is saying.

What we don't tend to understand is Love isn't cute all the time...and I feel God showed that a lot in the OT in fact lots of atheist hate him for it, we see this in relationships as well. The bible speaks of reconciliation but that doesn't mean to not say anything, it just means to sort of find a common ground and sometimes end that one conversation and wait another day. SOmetimes the best love is a mixture of kindness/correction and of course patience rather then just one or the other.

There are many who confuse sensitivity to other people's feelings as the only way to speak the truth in love. Love cares for the other person. As I said earlier, your comments are really the first to zero in on evangelism. Sometimes the most loving thing you can do is push a person hard out of the way of a speeding car on direct course of collision towards that person. I understand your point and agree with that point. I think the others in this thread would agree with you, too.
 
Upvote 0

AlexDTX

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 13, 2015
4,191
2,818
✟328,934.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
1. I never said that God only chooses people who aren't trained...you're confusing ability with training. I was talking about how some have the ability to preach or speak just aren't called yet or saved and anointed( approved) yet...some have the ability to play an instrument , some have the ability to sing and you confused that with me claiming that God only chooses people who are already set up and ready to do something.

What creates confusion is your addressing issues irrelevant to the topic. What you are saying above regards body ministry. Not everyone is an eye in the body of Christ. Now, to bring it back to the topic of this thread, I suppose it is a good point to note that how each person in the body speaks the truth in love will depend upon these differences. I think that is a good consideration. We can easily judge people based upon how we think things should be done.

2. I never once said that God chooses people who are already trained...in fact I said studying the word is needed in order to minister. I simply said that typically if someone already has a singing gift or ability to speak or play a instrument or teach they typically are selected for callings that suit those gifts such as preaching/testimony leader/ sunday school teacher. I never said that someone that wasn't born with the ability to speak can't become a preacher, in fact my Pastor qualifies as one who didn't have the ability but God stirred it in him, additionally it helped that he became a teacher as well though. In fact maybe half or so of the preachers I listen to never had a natural speaking ability or even wanted to preach the other half did.

Of course God can use people in ways that they are not naturally gifted. Still off topic, which is why you are creating confusion. But regards evangelism there is no excuse not to evangelize, since we are all called to share the Gospel whether gifted as an evangelist or not. In the 30 years that I have walked and ministered with the Lord I have seen many times failure on my part but God still uses my efforts to share the truth and turn it into something unexpected and good. No one should stay quiet when we have the power to speak because of fear and insecurities in our abilities. In fact, when are clearly incompetent, yet still try, it will be obvious that the good that comes from it comes from the Lord and not us.

3. YOu overestimate me way to much man....first of all look at my age...i'm a 20 year old preacher/musician i'm too young to be interested in trying to plan and push personal vendettas i'm simply defending a position and I guess I offended you or something because you seem mad if so I apologize. I also apologize for assuming your initial reply was what you were going to stick with I should have noticed the later replies slowly changing in their stance.

This is a point that has been brought up by others. Speaking the truth in love means being quick to hear and slow to speak. In the case of this online discussion, that means reading first then writing your response.

4. Well I come across as blunt online so I can't blame you for not seeing truth in me. In real life i'm more sociable though, people like me always have even before being saved, i'm just not the best at translating that online I try though.

Communication is a developed skill. It takes thoughtfulness to be able to communicate effectively. Those who have learned to listen, and those who are well read, tend to communicate more effectively. Sadly, many do not read and have very short attention spans. Some points are not understood until having read or listened for a long time.
 
Upvote 0

AlexDTX

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 13, 2015
4,191
2,818
✟328,934.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
yes, serious dialogue is definitely better than a monologue, but it depends not only on one of the parties but on both - i can try talking to someone, but if they don't talk to me, then i can thus only speak a monologue all day long for years...

Blessings
Very true. Speaking the truth in love also includes recognizing deaf ears. Jesus spoke in parables because he knew that audience would turn what he said to their own agenda instead of receiving what he said. There are times when you have recognize that you would casting your pearls before swine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: razzelflabben
Upvote 0

toLiJC

Senior Member
Jun 18, 2012
3,041
227
✟35,877.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Very true. Speaking the truth in love also includes recognizing deaf ears. Jesus spoke in parables because he knew that audience would turn what he said to their own agenda instead of receiving what he said. There are times when you have recognize that you would casting your pearls before swine.

thousands of swine have torn me apart for the last decades, i am still alive and in good enough condition to work for (the) righteousness of the true Lord God only thanks to Him

Blessings
 
Upvote 0

JESUS=G.O.A.T

Well-Known Member
Dec 29, 2016
2,683
659
27
Houston
✟68,441.00
Country
United States
Faith
Apostolic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
What creates confusion is your addressing issues irrelevant to the topic. What you are saying above regards body ministry. Not everyone is an eye in the body of Christ. Now, to bring it back to the topic of this thread, I suppose it is a good point to note that how each person in the body speaks the truth in love will depend upon these differences. I think that is a good consideration. We can easily judge people based upon how we think things should be done.



Of course God can use people in ways that they are not naturally gifted. Still off topic, which is why you are creating confusion. But regards evangelism there is no excuse not to evangelize, since we are all called to share the Gospel whether gifted as an evangelist or not. In the 30 years that I have walked and ministered with the Lord I have seen many times failure on my part but God still uses my efforts to share the truth and turn it into something unexpected and good. No one should stay quiet when we have the power to speak because of fear and insecurities in our abilities. In fact, when are clearly incompetent, yet still try, it will be obvious that the good that comes from it comes from the Lord and not us.



This is a point that has been brought up by others. Speaking the truth in love means being quick to hear and slow to speak. In the case of this online discussion, that means reading first then writing your response.



Communication is a developed skill. It takes thoughtfulness to be able to communicate effectively. Those who have learned to listen, and those who are well read, tend to communicate more effectively. Sadly, many do not read and have very short attention spans. Some points are not understood until having read or listened for a long time.
First of all you suggested in your reply that I was saying God only chooses people who are ready... you flat out said that God doesn't as if that's what I was saying so I wasn't off topic but merely addressing an false accusation or what seemed to be that. Also I read the Op... if the topic is on topic reading the Op is usually enough.., this is the first time my initial reply was "off topic" from responding directly to the OP. I've never had this issue before from not reading the other comments. It also doesn't help when you don't present a clear posistion, with each reply you made you changed what you were trying to say. If you just said you agreed with me in your first reply instead of seemingly being against what I stated I wouldn't have gone a bit off topic to respond. Also I believe everyone is called to evangelize in a way but not to preach, be a pastor, a leader of service, deacon etc. certian things are only for certian people God chooses as we see in Romans 12. Also you're right it takes time to train to communicate but it's hard to master that online as we see with our conversation. Trust me try sending a text or replying or posting on social media... you get mixed reactions regardless of how you word something. This is a proven "problem" you may text something to someone and they take it a whole different way just like you did with my initial reply assuming I'm one of those atheist bashing types. Everyone no matter how well they communicate offline can make mistakes or wrongly evulate people online.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JESUS=G.O.A.T

Well-Known Member
Dec 29, 2016
2,683
659
27
Houston
✟68,441.00
Country
United States
Faith
Apostolic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I think just discussing the Gospel is a simplistic view of what it means to speak the truth in love. As has already been discussed by others and myself in this thread it includes walking the talk with a life of love, it includes having wisdom of knowing when to speak and when not to speak, it includes sensitivity to the promptings of the Holy Spirit, it includes knowing how to control one's tone of voice, it includes being a good listener and understanding what the other person is saying.



There are many who confuse sensitivity to other people's feelings as the only way to speak the truth in love. Love cares for the other person. As I said earlier, your comments are really the first to zero in on evangelism. Sometimes the most loving thing you can do is push a person hard out of the way of a speeding car on direct course of collision towards that person. I understand your point and agree with that point. I think the others in this thread would agree with you, too.
I agree spreading the gospel is more complex in a way, but im just saying if you have a simple chill mindset about it you're able to come across as someone people are ok with talking to. I also agree though your right it involves the ability to listen in fact personally I listen more then I talk. I also agree that if someone has the Holy Spirit they should be sensitive to it in any discussion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AlexDTX
Upvote 0

AlexDTX

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 13, 2015
4,191
2,818
✟328,934.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
First of all you suggested in your reply that I was saying God only chooses people who are ready... you flat out said that God doesn't as if that's what I was saying so I wasn't off topic but merely addressing an false accusation or what seemed to be that. Also I read the Op... if the topic is on topic reading the Op is usually enough.., this is the first time my initial reply was "off topic" from responding directly to the OP. I've never had this issue before from not reading the other comments. It also doesn't help when you don't present a clear posistion, with each reply you made you changed what you were trying to say. If you just said you agreed with me in your first reply instead of seemingly being against what I stated I wouldn't have gone a bit off topic to respond. Also I believe everyone is called to evangelize in a way but not to preach, be a pastor, a leader of service, deacon etc. certian things are only for certian people God chooses as we see in Romans 12. Also you're right it takes time to train to communicate but it's hard to master that online as we see with our conversation. Trust me try sending a text or replying or posting on social media... you get mixed reactions regardless of how you word something. This is a proven "problem" you may text something to someone and they take it a whole different way just like you did with my initial reply assuming I'm one of those atheist bashing types. Everyone no matter how well they communicate offline can make mistakes or wrongly evulate people online.
Drop it, GOAT. This is futile conversation and I have no interest in it.
 
Upvote 0

JESUS=G.O.A.T

Well-Known Member
Dec 29, 2016
2,683
659
27
Houston
✟68,441.00
Country
United States
Faith
Apostolic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Drop it, GOAT. This is futile conversation and I have no interest in it.
True it is getting no where and we clearly disagree on who caused the conversation to go off topic, I believe it was both of us tbh you misunderstanding my reply and me not figuring out your stance on the issue. I guess we might as well call a truce
 
Upvote 0

AlexDTX

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 13, 2015
4,191
2,818
✟328,934.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
As I continue to think about the topic another aspect has come to my mind. When is it time to speak the truth in love in a private setting or a public setting? My own thinking is that if someone publicly says something that is wrong and misleads others, then the right time to correct their statement is publicly.

For example, with a congregation I attended a guest speaker said that if you don't tithe you will go to hell. I was so annoyed by the assertion that I stood up in the middle of his sermon and walked out of the building. Later I sent him private emails refuting what he had said publicly. He told our pastor about the emails I sent him and my pastor censured me. He agreed that what his friend had said was wrong but it was not my place to send him a correction since the man was his guest. I stood my ground and said, No, that is not the case. He made a public assertion and since I was part of the listening public, I had the right to refute him. As I think back on that incident now, I really wish I had spoken up from the congregation and refuted him then and there. However, I had been conditioned by churchianity that it is wrong to interrupt and disagree with the pulpit. That is not historically true. And it was certainly not true with Jesus, who let people interrupt him when he was talking.

This online forum is a public forum, so I am sure everyone would agree that it is appropriate to disagree with others online. But what about when we are physically present, such as in my example? I think the time for private comments are when it is not a matter of public statements, but regards personal matters and such.

What does everyone think? When is it appropriate to publicly refute someone and when is it better to keep it private?
 
Upvote 0

GandalfTheWise

In search of lost causes and hopeless battles
May 27, 2012
357
535
Wisconsin
✟71,403.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As I continue to think about the topic another aspect has come to my mind. When is it time to speak the truth in love in a private setting or a public setting? My own thinking is that if someone publicly says something that is wrong and misleads others, then the right time to correct their statement is publicly.

For example, with a congregation I attended a guest speaker said that if you don't tithe you will go to hell. I was so annoyed by the assertion that I stood up in the middle of his sermon and walked out of the building. Later I sent him private emails refuting what he had said publicly. He told our pastor about the emails I sent him and my pastor censured me. He agreed that what his friend had said was wrong but it was not my place to send him a correction since the man was his guest. I stood my ground and said, No, that is not the case. He made a public assertion and since I was part of the listening public, I had the right to refute him. As I think back on that incident now, I really wish I had spoken up from the congregation and refuted him then and there. However, I had been conditioned by churchianity that it is wrong to interrupt and disagree with the pulpit. That is not historically true. And it was certainly not true with Jesus, who let people interrupt him when he was talking.

This online forum is a public forum, so I am sure everyone would agree that it is appropriate to disagree with others online. But what about when we are physically present, such as in my example? I think the time for private comments are when it is not a matter of public statements, but regards personal matters and such.

What does everyone think? When is it appropriate to publicly refute someone and when is it better to keep it private?

I usually stay within the expected bounds of any community I have decided to join unless there is a very compelling reason not to do so. At my church, there is the expectation that there is a time and place for questions and comments (in classes and small groups, question and answer sessions, and privately) and that public speakers are invited by the pastoral staff who take responsibility for what is said and done. The system our church has in place is that anyone can approach any of the pastoral staff with concerns. They then have the responsibility of deciding how to deal with it. If I were to choose to go outside those bounds, I had better have a very good reason for taking upon myself the role of the pastoral staff without involving them. Ultimately, I'd be publicly declaring that I did not trust the pastors to deal with the situation appropriately. I have a high degree of confidence in the pastoral staff and have thus far been satisfied deferring to their judgement. (I cannot say that is true of every group I've been part of in my life.)

I'm not convinced that all things need to be addressed immediately. For example, in Acts 16, the female fortune teller followed Paul and Silas around for "many days" before Paul took action. In Acts 18, Apollos was publicly preaching the gospel in the synagogue without knowing Jesus. "When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately." (Acts 18:26 NIV).

I'm hesitant to characterize many interactions with Jesus as interruptions in contrast to expected give and take dialogue that was within the usual bounds of expected behavior. It's not clear to me which conversations were dialogues/debates between leaders, question and answer sessions after the sermon, or out and out interruptions in the middle of speaking. I'd be hesitant to use this as a biblical mandate for speaking up anywhere or anytime without a clear exposition of the topic.

Many times as a worship leader, I got caught in situations (during open prayer and testimonies) where people would say something completely off the wall. I've forgotten most of the details now. My usual approach was to gently deflect them or add more detail or quote a relevant scripture to steer things in a more sane direction. I recall a few times on really weird things which I was at a total loss to deal with catching the pastor's eye to indicate, "Help!". He'd usually get up and say something though once in awhile he deemed it wasn't worth the distraction and would discretely gesture to move on and not draw a lot of attention to it.

By and large, I think it is up to the elders and leaders of a group to deal with the public stuff. If they are not dealing with it adequately, it potentially points to a much bigger problem. If there is a serious leadership issue... that's a completely different topic.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Truthfrees
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

AlexDTX

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 13, 2015
4,191
2,818
✟328,934.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I usually stay within the expected bounds of any community I have decided to join unless there is a very compelling reason not to do so. At my church, there is the expectation that there is a time and place for questions and comments (in classes and small groups, question and answer sessions, and privately) and that public speakers are invited by the pastoral staff who take responsibility for what is said and done. The system our church has in place is that anyone can approach any of the pastoral staff with concerns. They then have the responsibility of deciding how to deal with it. If I were to choose to go outside those bounds, I had better have a very good reason for taking upon myself the role of the pastoral staff without involving them. Ultimately, I'd be publicly declaring that I did not trust the pastors to deal with the situation appropriately. I have a high degree of confidence in the pastoral staff and have thus far been satisfied deferring to their judgement. (I cannot say that is true of every group I've been part of in my life.)

I'm not convinced that all things need to be addressed immediately. For example, in Acts 16, the female fortune teller followed Paul and Silas around for "many days" before Paul took action. In Acts 18, Apollos was publicly preaching the gospel in the synagogue without knowing Jesus. "When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately." (Acts 18:26 NIV).

I'm hesitant to characterize many interactions with Jesus as interruptions in contrast to expected give and take dialogue that was within the usual bounds of expected behavior. It's not clear to me which conversations were dialogues/debates between leaders, question and answer sessions after the sermon, or out and out interruptions in the middle of speaking. I'd be hesitant to use this as a biblical mandate for speaking up anywhere or anytime without a clear exposition of the topic.

Many times as a worship leader, I got caught in situations (during open prayer and testimonies) where people would say something completely off the wall. I've forgotten most of the details now. My usual approach was to gently deflect them or add more detail or quote a relevant scripture to steer things in a more sane direction. I recall a few times on really weird things which I was at a total loss to deal with catching the pastor's eye to indicate, "Help!". He'd usually get up and say something though once in awhile he deemed it wasn't worth the distraction and would discretely gesture to move on and not draw a lot of attention to it.

By and large, I think it is up to the elders and leaders of a group to deal with the public stuff. If they are not dealing with it adequately, it potentially points to a much bigger problem. If there is a serious leadership issue... that's a completely different topic.

Thanks for the feedback, Gandalf. In my particular story, I said nothing publicly. Instead my wife and I walked out of the room, which was public in of its self. My contact with the guest speaker was private in email, but I forgot to mention that the pastor repudiated his friend's statement from the pulpit declaring that no one goes to hell for not tithing. We left the fellowship shortly afterwards.

As an FYI, I have nothing to do with organized religion anymore. I find fellowship and mission through other venues. When we speak the truth in love it seems we have to weigh the outcomes. A private discussion for a personal matter is obvious, but people who speak in public are impacting many more lives. For example, tel-evangelists are seen and heard by the millions. Many people have no problem speaking out against some of them that clearly are hustling money. In fact, Bob Tilton in Dallas, suffered a major scandal due to his staff taking money out of the envelopes and throwing the prayer requests away without even reading them.

Bringing the topic home, this forum is also a public venue, and debate and disagreement is the reason for the site. But even here, I think there are times when a Private Message might be in order. By the way, what does OP stand for? Original Poster?
 
Upvote 0

GandalfTheWise

In search of lost causes and hopeless battles
May 27, 2012
357
535
Wisconsin
✟71,403.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
@AlexDTX
I know some believers who've given up on organized religion and I understand many of their reasons. I know some people who've done quite well in home churches and less formal groups. I know a few who had burned out on organized religion (usually from things like church splits) and just needed a vacation from it for awhile and went back.

That is a very interesting observation about public figures with media type ministries outside our normal spheres of influence. I've not thought about that very much before. It does make me wonder what obligations we might have to point things out. Definitely food for thought there for me. I'm glad you mentioned that.

My best guess is that OP can mean either original post or original poster. I've seen it used both ways.
 
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,818
2,508
63
Ohio
✟122,293.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Dear AlexDTX. We are Christians, and we should always speak the truth. We have to do it with love and compassion. Jesus told us inMatthew 22: 35-40: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself."
Jesus tells us in verse 40: Love God and love each other, on these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. That is not too hard ford us. We ask for Love and Joy, then we thank God and treat all we know and all we meet with love and compassion.
The Bible tells us: give up or selfish wishes and wants, ask God for love: (Matthew 7: 7-10) then thank God and share all love and joy with all around us. God will see our sincere love and care, and God will BLESS us. Let us all try and be the men and women which God wants. I say this with love, Alex. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
Emmy, I see you post often about love, can you tell me how you define love? IOW's you say here "treat all we know and all we meet with love and compassion" what in your opinion is love? Not characteristics like we find in I Cor. 13 but beyond, for example, is it an emotion? Action? How does it act when we consider Jesus calling others white washed tombs or overthrowing the money changers? Etc.
 
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,818
2,508
63
Ohio
✟122,293.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
As I continue to think about the topic another aspect has come to my mind. When is it time to speak the truth in love in a private setting or a public setting? My own thinking is that if someone publicly says something that is wrong and misleads others, then the right time to correct their statement is publicly.

For example, with a congregation I attended a guest speaker said that if you don't tithe you will go to hell. I was so annoyed by the assertion that I stood up in the middle of his sermon and walked out of the building. Later I sent him private emails refuting what he had said publicly. He told our pastor about the emails I sent him and my pastor censured me. He agreed that what his friend had said was wrong but it was not my place to send him a correction since the man was his guest. I stood my ground and said, No, that is not the case. He made a public assertion and since I was part of the listening public, I had the right to refute him. As I think back on that incident now, I really wish I had spoken up from the congregation and refuted him then and there. However, I had been conditioned by churchianity that it is wrong to interrupt and disagree with the pulpit. That is not historically true. And it was certainly not true with Jesus, who let people interrupt him when he was talking.

This online forum is a public forum, so I am sure everyone would agree that it is appropriate to disagree with others online. But what about when we are physically present, such as in my example? I think the time for private comments are when it is not a matter of public statements, but regards personal matters and such.

What does everyone think? When is it appropriate to publicly refute someone and when is it better to keep it private?
Hummm....interesting question. I am reminded of two things from scripture, the first is that worship is to be orderly....correcting in the service would not be orderly. That being said, the elder is to be corrected publicly as an example according to I Tim. So I find myself waffling. The other thing I am reminded of is the admonishment to women to not speak or usurp their authority but address any issues privately at home with her husband. The reason I bring this up is because the wife of noble character is to be an example to the church of how the church is suppose to respond to God.

Hum...I guess the best I can say at the moment is before leaving or confronting pray that the HS would flow through you according to His will.

We were in a service once where a young member of our congregation had recently tried to commit suicide (med. induced, very sad) anyway, the visiting pastor made a comment (not sure what he meant) that left us feeling sorry for the young girl and her and her families traumas. We didn't say anything then during service but talked to the pastor later. Now the visiting speaker was the pastors wife's grandfather so family connection. I don't think he (the grandfather) has spoken since but it was all done in private according to Matthew 18...

Very interesting question, anxious to see what others have to say.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

AlexDTX

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 13, 2015
4,191
2,818
✟328,934.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
@AlexDTX
I know some believers who've given up on organized religion and I understand many of their reasons. I know some people who've done quite well in home churches and less formal groups. I know a few who had burned out on organized religion (usually from things like church splits) and just needed a vacation from it for awhile and went back.

That is a very interesting observation about public figures with media type ministries outside our normal spheres of influence. I've not thought about that very much before. It does make me wonder what obligations we might have to point things out. Definitely food for thought there for me. I'm glad you mentioned that.

My best guess is that OP can mean either original post or original poster. I've seen it used both ways.

It is the peculiar history of the timing for my own salvation experience that colors my vision, I guess. I said this in other threads. I experienced the new birth in Marvin Gormman's Assembly of Gods congregation on Airline Highway in Metairie, LA back in 1985. I stayed in his fellowship for one year. During that time a scandal had broken out that Jimmy Swaggart, whose ministry was in Baton Rouge a few miles west of Metairie, had an affair with Marvin's wife, Virginia. Shortly thereafter it was discovered that Swaggart also visited prostitutes on Airline Highway in Metairie as well. In the same time period Jim and Tammy Bakker were exposed for embezzling ministry money for personal gain to the tune of $3.7 million dollars.

Those scandals, however, had no impact on my faith in Christ. I did not use that as an excuse to walk away from Christianity as some did, because none of those people died for my sins. Jesus was still actively involved with my life and I knew it. I did leave New Orleans for Dallas to attend Bible School at Christ for the Nations. I absolutely knew that this is what God wanted me to do. I had no money back then. I simply knew this was God's will and determined to go anyway. Then 3 days before leaving, without a single solicitation on my part, people started giving me money for the journey. The next thing I knew, I had $1,000 cash in my hand, which was enough for the tuition.

While at CFNI Bob Tilton fell in scandal. It was discovered that his staff would simply take the money out of the envelopes and throw away the prayer requests without even bothering to read the requests. I went to CFNI with the intention of becoming a paid minister. It was there that I found Watchman Nee's 3 volume opus called, "The Spiritual Man." This was the only book that I ever read that tried to give practical instruction on how to be sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit. He wrote that anything we did without the leading of the Spirit was a work of the flesh. I realized that although the Lord wanted me to come to CFNI that did not also mean that He wanted me to be professional minister. While I was in LA during my second year of the new birth, I asked God what he wanted me to do. He told me to teach the Bible. I asked him how He wanted me to make my living. He told me to teach gymnastics because it was good for children. I forgot this in my desire to get paid teaching the Bible. I speak for myself. I have no doubt that God does call people into professional ministry. So after graduating, I walked away from pursuing that goal. Instead, I met my wife through alumni housing.

Together we attended various congregations seeking one that was led by the Spirit. That lasted about 10 years. I came to realize that organized religion is a worldly system. That does not mean God does not use them. Some are greatly used by the Lord. But the system itself hinders the flow of the Spirit because it does not allow the Spirit freedom to move. Even in the Pentecostal fellowships where they try to give the Spirit its freedom, they still box Him in through the format of songs, money collection and pulpit preaching followed by altar call.

We read up on the house church movement and moved through those for the next 5 years, only to discover similar problems. There is always someone who wants to control what happens in the gatherings. Lord Acton said that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. So, even there we found restrictions on the Holy Spirit. We ended up hosting our own house church, not because we sought it, but because people came to us. I had determined not to lead the fellowship so the Lord can have His way, but man abhors a vacuum and one brother tends to lead it any way.

I know that there are many satisfied and fulfilled believers in organized religion. But, for some, I think, it is because they slip into the business model and become staff members instead of merely congregation members.

This has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. It seemed like your last response merited a history of my view. Maybe not. I really appreciate your wisdom Gandalf. Thanks for reading my story. Blessings to you and your labors.
 
Upvote 0

AlexDTX

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 13, 2015
4,191
2,818
✟328,934.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Hummm....interesting question. I am reminded of two things from scripture, the first is that worship is to be orderly....correcting in the service would not be orderly. That being said, the elder is to be corrected publicly as an example according to I Tim. So I find myself waffling. The other thing I am reminded of is the admonishment to women to not speak or usurp their authority but address any issues privately at home with her husband. The reason I bring this up is because the wife of noble character is to be an example to the church of how the church is suppose to respond to God.

Hum...I guess the best I can say at the moment is before leaving or confronting pray that the HS would flow through you according to His will.

We were in a service once where a young member of our congregation had recently tried to commit suicide (med. induced, very sad) anyway, the visiting pastor made a comment (not sure what he meant) that left us feeling sorry for the young girl and her and her families traumas. We didn't say anything then during service but talked to the pastor later. Now the visiting speaker was the pastors wife's grandfather so family connection. I don't think he (the grandfather) has spoken since but it was all done in private according to Matthew 18...

Very interesting question, anxious to see what others have to say.

Thank you for your response. I, too, am waffling. I agree that the leading of the Spirit is number 1. I don't think it is our business, per se, to go around correcting everyone all the time. Who are we to judge another man's (the Lord's) servant. To that man (the Lord) he will stand or fall. It is God's business.

In my experience, God tells his children directly through checks in the spirit to not do something. But if we ignore those checks, then He will prompt someone, or more if needed, to speak to us depending on how much we have disregarded those checks. This is the basis of the Matthew 18 instruction, in my opinion. Of course, like a court of law, you have to have standing. In other words, the person going to the other person in Matthew 18 is a party involved, not some outsider sticking his nose into the middle of the situation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: razzelflabben
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,818
2,508
63
Ohio
✟122,293.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Thank you for your response. I, too, am waffling. I agree that the leading of the Spirit is number 1. I don't think it is our business, per se, to go around correcting everyone all the time. Who are we to judge another man's (the Lord's) servant. To that man (the Lord) he will stand or fall. It is God's business.

In my experience, God tells his children directly through checks in the spirit to not do something. But if we ignore those checks, then He will prompt someone, or more if needed, to speak to us depending on how much we have disregarded those checks. This is the basis of the Matthew 18 instruction, in my opinion. Of course, like a court of law, you have to have standing. In other words, the person going to the other person in Matthew 18 is a party involved, not some outsider sticking his nose into the middle of the situation.
Funny and sad story. We had in our fellowship body a young couple who had recently come to Christ. About the same time the body hired a man to be associate pastor (big mistake but another story) So the new believers had an issue with the associate pastor and asked us how to handle it. We pointed them to Matt. 18 and told them to follow God's word on the matter. They didn't want to because "it would go badly". To which we responded, obedience to God and prayed for them.

WEll, eventually another couple found out there was a problem and instead of following Matt. 18 they skipped steps and before anyone knew what was going on there was a meeting with elders and others, an outburst, lies told, etc. It was very ugly indeed. Among other things we were reprimanded for suggesting Matt. 18 as the model by which to deal with the issue because it "wasn't a sin issue" (it really was, but again another story).

But the funny thing was, if the couple had followed Mat. 18 it would have ended peacefully without everyone knowing the situation and there wouldn't have been any issue. Because they went out of the biblical model things got really ugly.

Lesson to learn...God's way is always best!
 
  • Agree
Reactions: tturt
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums