What did the Church Fathers think of women preachers or teachers?

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Are there any sermons given by women from the time of the early Church that we can demonstrate were given in the context of a liturgy.? If not, that should tell us something about women in that time when we compare the many sermons and homilies we do have access to from the fathers.

This doesn't mean women were purely passive in their Christianity, it was their job to teach it to their Children and we have some examples of this in St Monica, St Macrina and perhaps St Mary of Egypt. We have letters addressed by the fathers to women (St John Chrysostom's letters to St Olympias for example) and they are not lacking in theological detail. Women were expected as men were expected to have a basic grasp of Christian doctrine.

Women did not seem to have the role of preacher in the early Church, nor did they comment in depth on theology until much later. At least to my knowledge. If I can be shown some resources, I will change my mind.

 

[SkyWriting]

So what is your view on women teachers and teachers?

My spiritual life changed when I finally saw the meaning of these words:

In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you.
For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets. Enter through the narrow gate.

When I took out the added numbers, my eyes popped out.

Women and men are to be treated the same. It's a narrow gate.

So anything you read anywhere, that doesn't make it through this filter, is misspoken.

 

[RDKirk]

My spiritual life changed when I finally saw the meaning of these words:

In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you.
For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets. Enter through the narrow gate.

When I took out the added numbers, my eyes popped out.

Women and men are to be treated the same. It's a narrow gate.

So anything you read anywhere, that doesn't make it through this filter, is misspoken.

You have to be careful putting people on that Procrustean bed.

God aims for equal outcome, not equal treatment.

Because people are not equal, that means people have to be treated differently so that the outcomes are equal.

 

[SkyWriting]

You have to be careful putting people on that Procrustean bed.

God aims for equal outcome, not equal treatment.

Because people are not equal, that means people have to be treated differently so that the outcomes are equal.

I did speak incorrectly. Thanks!

In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you.
For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets. Enter through the narrow gate.

Women and men are both to be treated the same
as you would wish for them to treat you.
It's a narrow gate.


On your point, if you wish to be treated as nobody special, then do that to others.
If you wish for you to be treated as the most important person in the world, then do that for others. If you wish others to discriminate against you for your color, or race, or religion, or sexual preference, then do that to others. If not, then don't.

 

[SkyWriting]

You have to be careful putting people on that Procrustean bed.God aims for equal outcome, not equal treatment. Because people are not equal, that means people have to be treated differently so that the outcomes are equal.

If you wish for unequal treatment from others with them adjusting your benefits based on their judgment call, then that is what you should do to them as well.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

There are various sayings of the Desert Mothers along with the Desert Fathers.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Since I know of no sources that confirm the presence of women preachers within the context of a Church liturgy so I cannot imagine the fathers tolerating such a thing. Some of the fathers kept in correspondence with certain women, John Chrysostom with Olympias or Jerome with his patronesses and others. Women also left us writings and they were preserved to the current day, although hey were not nearly as popular as male Patristic literature.

I would say faithful women have always been essential in the raising and rearing of children in the basics of the faith. The only chance of women preaching the gospel I can recall in literature are the hagiographies where when faced with certain death the women remain faithful to Christ and refuse to be converted to paganism or any such thing. Men were the primary teachers and preachers of Christianity.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Since I know of no sources that confirm the presence of women preachers within the context of a Church liturgy so I cannot imagine the fathers tolerating such a thing. Some of the fathers kept in correspondence with certain women, John Chrysostom with Olympias or Jerome with his patronesses and others. Women also left us writings and they were preserved to the current day, although hey were not nearly as popular as male Patristic literature.

I would say faithful women have always been essential in the raising and rearing of children in the basics of the faith. The only chance of women preaching the gospel I can recall in literature are the hagiographies where when faced with certain death the women remain faithful to Christ and refuse to be converted to paganism or any such thing. Men were the primary teachers and preachers of Christianity.

I'm curious why you limit the idea of preaching within the Liturgy? I would imagine it occurred most often outside of that context? The examples of preaching and teaching that we have (in Scripture for example) often did?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I'm curious why you limit the idea of preaching within the Liturgy? I would imagine it occurred most often outside of that context? The examples of preaching and teaching that we have (in Scripture for example) often did?

I wouldn't necessarily limit preaching to within liturgy, I only make the observation that I am unaware of any literature pointing to women preaching during a liturgy. I think this important given how the sacrament is the core of our worship and that women have not been able to preach historically during that time, is significant.

I'm not really against women out of that context preaching or offering what they have to say. Some of the greatest saints were formed by women, though they seemed to be from a monastic background primarily which makes sense given that they wouldn't have to concern themselves with the tasks of the average woman back in the day.

Still, Is there anything that points to women preaching openly and publicly in a non-liturgical setting during early Church history? The question is whether the fathers would have approved of preaching by women. Within a liturgical context I think the answer is no. Outside of that I am not sure.

 

[Paidiske]

There is ancient tradition in the west that Mary Magdalene travelled to France and preached in Marseilles. There are many artworks depicting this; interestingly I note that they all seem to show an open-air setting, suggesting a non-liturgical context (public evangelism?).

 

[~Anastasia~]

There is ancient tradition in the west that Mary Magdalene travelled to France and preached in Marseilles. There are many artworks depicting this; interestingly I note that they all seem to show an open-air setting, suggesting a non-liturgical context (public evangelism?).

That's the kind of thing I was thinking of. Much preaching within the context of what we know of is evangelism and was preached (often open-air) to whoever would listen.

And the most intensive teaching occurred outside the context of the Liturgy, such as when the catechumens were removed after the first part.

So I was curious why looking to the Liturgy was used for answering the question?

 

[~Anastasia~]

I wouldn't necessarily limit preaching to within liturgy, I only make the observation that I am unaware of any literature pointing to women preaching during a liturgy. I think this important given how the sacrament is the core of our worship and that women have not been able to preach historically during that time, is significant.

I'm not really against women out of that context preaching or offering what they have to say. Some of the greatest saints were formed by women, though they seemed to be from a monastic background primarily which makes sense given that they wouldn't have to concern themselves with the tasks of the average woman back in the day.

Still, Is there anything that points to women preaching openly and publicly in a non-liturgical setting during early Church history? The question is whether the fathers would have approved of preaching by women. Within a liturgical context I think the answer is no. Outside of that I am not sure.

Thank you for the reply. I was thinking of situation such as Paidiske mentioned ... we have other traditions of Mary Magdalene preaching (such as her audience with the Emperor, for example).

Even the preaching of the Apostles mentioned within Scripture is in an open-air context generally, or within essentially legal confines, or wherever they happen to be.

We do have particular records of sermons delivered from a few centuries later, and those may have been within the context of the Liturgy, and are mostly associated with local bishops. But I don't see a reason to think of all preaching and teaching, especially from the earliest days of Christianity, to be limited only to that.

So I was just curious of your reasons.

 

[Sammy-San]

I would like to recall my points on women teachers and women preachers. I think that there would be a difference between a woman teaching the true gospel and a woman preaching the true gospel. Here is the link:
There is a difference between teaching and preaching the gospel

I admit that this is a subject that I have very strong views on. I have a question however. I know that there are many people, including here that have their views on women preachers especially. However, I believed that provided if a woman was actually called to preach, and provided that preached the true gospel, where or how would be judged? What did the Church Fathers believe in females who preached the true gospel, not a false gospel? How would she be judged according to them?

Would she be judged by Jesus in the Judgement seat of Christ like all believers? Or, would she be judged in the Great White Throne anyways? Personally, if she were to preach a true gospel from the pulpit, provided that she was truly called, I don't believe that she would be judged at the Great White Throne. It would make Jesus' words seem contrary to scripture.

I believe that all believers including the women preachers that I have described earlier will not take park in the Great White Throne. Jesus was no sexist; He treated women with the utmost dignity and respect. I have my doubts about anyone who preaches or teaches the true gospel and lived and obeyed by the true gospel will be judged like those who are not. There are many males as well who are false prophets that will obviously take part in the Great White Throne of Judgment because of their unrepentant deeds.

I believe that if she has no business preaching the gospel because she is a woman, then could it be possible that though her work will be burned up, though she will enter Heaven, but scarcely. Was that what the Church Fathers taught, or are women teaching provided that she does not overstep her bounds by usurping the man's authority. However, I would think that there is or would be a difference between a teacher or a preacher.

I am not so sure how many would agree or disagree what I have written, but as a woman who is a Baptist, it would be an unpopular view. So what is your view on women teachers and teachers? What would the Church Fathers' opinion be? Would they be opposed to both women who teach and women who teach? It means that they may or may not have divided women who teach gospel differently from women who preached the gospel. Or would a woman who preaches is doing the same thing as teachers?

What can be done about women who speak out of turn in Bible class?

Answer:
Accidentally answering when a person is caught up in the lesson does happen. In some ways I find it encouraging that people are that involved in the lessons. It doesn't bother me when the person realizes and catches their outburst.

In regards to the class, much depends on the teacher. There are reasons that everyone shouldn't be a teacher (James 3:1). One of them is that teaching takes skill. One of the elder's duties is to help teach men in how to teach.

In La Vista many of us who teach encourage the class to raise their hands and wait to be called upon. They know that they will be called on, so they have less reason just to blurt out what they are thinking. There are times when the teacher has to remind someone that they need to wait their turn. I will often see hands go up and announce the order in which people can have their say. In this way, a teacher can quietly balance who is talking so that no one person is dominating the class. There are rare times when I might say, "You've answered the last three questions, let's see if anyone else has an answer to this question."

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer some questions on the phone and sending me the e-mail today. You have been very helpful.

We just wanted to make sure that my wife would not be in any danger speaking up. She is very knowledgeble in the Scriptures and sometimes can answer when no one else can. I am very proud of her for her devotion to the study. I certainly did not want her to lose her soul over something like this.

Again thank you so much. We really love your web site. You have done a wonderful job and I will tell others about it. May God richly bless you and your family.

 

[Pathfinder627]

I would like to recall my points on women teachers and women preachers. I think that there would be a difference between a woman teaching the true gospel and a woman preaching the true gospel. Here is the link:
There is a difference between teaching and preaching the gospel

I admit that this is a subject that I have very strong views on. I have a question however. I know that there are many people, including here that have their views on women preachers especially. However, I believed that provided if a woman was actually called to preach, and provided that preached the true gospel, where or how would be judged? What did the Church Fathers believe in females who preached the true gospel, not a false gospel? How would she be judged according to them?

Would she be judged by Jesus in the Judgement seat of Christ like all believers? Or, would she be judged in the Great White Throne anyways? Personally, if she were to preach a true gospel from the pulpit, provided that she was truly called, I don't believe that she would be judged at the Great White Throne. It would make Jesus' words seem contrary to scripture.

I believe that all believers including the women preachers that I have described earlier will not take park in the Great White Throne. Jesus was no sexist; He treated women with the utmost dignity and respect. I have my doubts about anyone who preaches or teaches the true gospel and lived and obeyed by the true gospel will be judged like those who are not. There are many males as well who are false prophets that will obviously take part in the Great White Throne of Judgment because of their unrepentant deeds.

I believe that if she has no business preaching the gospel because she is a woman, then could it be possible that though her work will be burned up, though she will enter Heaven, but scarcely. Was that what the Church Fathers taught, or are women teaching provided that she does not overstep her bounds by usurping the man's authority. However, I would think that there is or would be a difference between a teacher or a preacher.

I am not so sure how many would agree or disagree what I have written, but as a woman who is a Baptist, it would be an unpopular view. So what is your view on women teachers and teachers? What would the Church Fathers' opinion be? Would they be opposed to both women who teach and women who teach? It means that they may or may not have divided women who teach gospel differently from women who preached the gospel. Or would a woman who preaches is doing the same thing as teachers?

I don't know about the specific "office" of preacher, but the early Church was willing to call some female saints "Apostles". Which is the highest office of all. Mary Magdalene especially is called "Apostle to the Apostles", because Jesus sent her first to tell the rest of his disciples the good news of his resurrection. Any later missionary that was the first to bring the good news to a new land was deemed an Apostle as well, and showed as much by displaying much fruit and much power. St. Patrick, for example, is a male considered one of these secondary Apostles. St. Nena (or Nino) is a female who brought the Gospel to the Georgian regions.

Saint Nino - Wikipedia

 

[RDKirk]

"Preacher" is a calling. "Pastor" is an office.

 

[Pathfinder627]

"Preacher" is a calling. "Pastor" is an office.

Technically, agreed. But it could be a colloquialism in English for Pastor. Not sure how that started. People tend to associate the two at least, even if it's not a word describing a shepherding role over the congregation (think Dusty Springfield's famous song "Son of a Preacher Man"). Maybe it's better fitted into an office of Teachers.

 

[Albion]

I don't know about the specific "office" of preacher, but the early Church was willing to call some female saints "Apostles".

meaning missionaries or emissaries.

You don't seriously think that those persons were part of The Twelve+Paul, I assume.

Mary Magdalene especially is called "Apostle to the Apostles", because Jesus sent her first to tell the rest of his disciples the good news of his resurrection.

...which is exactly what I explained above. She was not a presbyter or bishop or a member of The Twelve; she was sent on a mission, just as you said.

 

[Pathfinder627]

meaning missionaries or emissaries.

You don't seriously think that those persons were part of The Twelve+Paul, I assume.


...which is exactly what I explained above. She was not a presbyter or bishop or a member of The Twelve; she was sent on a mission, just as you said.

Emissaries are Apostles. That's all it means. That "+Paul" you just stated (also James and others) should be an indicator to you that it wasn't an office excluded to just the original number. And the early church who actually spoke Koine Greek themselves knew this, since they had no qualms about using Apostle for people like Mary Magdalene or Patrick either.

 

[Paidiske]

"Preacher" is a calling. "Pastor" is an office.

That depends entirely on church polity.

 

[Albion]

Emissaries are Apostles. That's all it means.

Then we agree and there is no issue. But wait. You think that to be a messenger means that you are an ordained deacon, presbyter, or bishop.

Proving that point will take some doing on your part.