Tongues is a gift & not all have the gift of Tongues.
I have read that Many think you Have to Speak in tongues or they say you are not saved. This is a lie! You Do not have to speak in tongues to Be Saved.
The point that I raised was that the question is not so much between Pentecostal and Charismatics as both have in most part agreed over the years. The question should be more with how both of these groups differ with post-charismatics (Third Wave movement).
When questions such as these arise, there is often a lot of confusion with the terms Pentecostal, neo-Pentecostals, Charismatic and neo-charismatic and Third Wavers. The WoF movement is essentially a subset of the Pentecostal movement though its distinctives should never be associated with classic-Pentecostal beliefs.
Pentecostal:
A denomination that has always held to a Full Gospel Theology (AoG).
Charismatic (during the 60/70's they were also called neo-Pentecostals)
Congregations that have adopted (or partially adopted) the Full Gospel while still maintaining their links with their denomination; ie, Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian etc.
Neo-charismatics / Third wave movement:
This was popularised by John Wimber and the beliefs of this group differ from historical Charismatic teaching. Many congregations have been established along these lines and who have no connections with any historical denominations.
Admittedly many people today will probaby not even realise that the two terms Pentecostal and Charismatic have different meanings where they will simply use the words interchangably as they see fit. Many even seem to incorrectly presume that a neo-charismatic and a neo-Pentecostal are one and the same.From my historical understanding, this is very accurate. I would just add that some would understand themselves in the second category, yet, do not believe that tongues is the exclusive manifestation of being baptized with the Holy Spirit (i.e. Calvary Chapel...)
Evidence yes but what brings you to the point of thinking it's the only evidence? Didn't Paul go on a bit further? Didn't he speak of an more excellent way? Spiritual gifts are given to those baptized in the Holy Spirit. Prophecy is superior following love. I speak,pray and sing in tongues but would never suppose someone isn't baptized in the Holy Spirit because they don't possess this gift. Speaking in tongues is indeed evidence but we must remember that even the devil speaks in the tongue of angels.1. Tongues is a gift. This is true. Just as faith is a gift.
2. However, tongues is also a manifestation of receiving the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Faith is also a manifestation of a vital relationship with Christ.
3. So, both tongues and faith are used in more than one way.
4. I do not teach that salvation is evidenced by speaking in tongues. That is clearly unbalanced.
Respectfully
Since we are in the Charismatic, non-Word of Faith category, what are your thoughts about speaking in tongues?
I post this question here because it is my understanding that this is the issue that divides the charismatics from the WOF/AOG/Pentecostals.
What do you believe?
Evidence yes but what brings you to the point of thinking it's the only evidence?
Didn't Paul go on a bit further? Didn't he speak of an more excellent way?
Spiritual gifts are given to those baptized in the Holy Spirit.
Prophecy is superior following love.
I speak, pray and sing in tongues but would never suppose someone isn't baptized in the Holy Spirit because they don't possess this gift.
Speaking in tongues is indeed evidence but we must remember that even the devil speaks in the tongue of angels.
Paul wrote his first epistle to the Church in Corinth as he found this Church having grave problems and one of those problems was the misuse and over use of tongues.
It's not that the gift was bad but the intoxication of it led some to put the gift above the love Christ instills in a Christian at salvation.[/QUOTE
Speculation! No Scripture supports this!
Paul gave guidelines to keep the misuse in check and I rarely see this employed in our assemblies today. Seems we fear hurting someones feelings rather than to worship as a body of believers. If someone has a word from God, and there is not a gifted interpreter in the congregation the word is not delivered and therefore useless except to the speaker.
I would disagree with your analysis and interpretation on this matter.
Speaking in tongues on Sunday then speaking like an angry drunken sailor on Monday doesn't seem like good evidence of anything. Tongues without love is simply noise.
Hmmmm.... havn't experienced much of that... lol
I agree with the writer I quoted that this gift is not evidence of salvation as that clearly goes directly against the Word of God. But I find those not gifted with tongues often find them selves as second class members in many a Pentecostal Church.
Perhaps! However, it doesn't take away the truth that they need to receive the Gift of the Spirit with the Biblical evidence of speaking in tongues.
I can clearly remember being held by two sister at the altar with one saying hold on and the other saying let go. They seemed to think I was missing something I needed desperately. Their prayers and howlings produced nothing as some years later I received the gift at home in prayer when I was at a loss about how to pray about a situation. The gift has nothing to do with some supposed holiness level. The gift has nothing to do with how close you are to God. It is a tool given of God for edification, prayer and worship and should be used with reverence, not as a "LOOK AT ME" tool.
I agree it should never be a "look at me" thing. However, I disagree that it is not a part of growing in grace. Acts 2:38 sets up a paradigm for Christian initiation - Repentance (faith), Water Baptism, and Receiving the Gift of the Holy Spirit are all distinct experiences that every believer should receive immediately before moving on to Christian maturity.
As a pastor, I've found this gift to be the most used and most misunderstood gift of all. It's no wonder non Charismatics think we're faking and insane.Too often we draw tongues like a gun then agrue about those not gifted so.
I have found that most Pastors don't understand how tongues is to be used in the Assembly, which creates the confusion.
Respectfully
"Since we are in the Charismatic, non-Word of Faith category, what are your thoughts about speaking in tongues?"
Personally, I was Saved in 1962 in a Baptist environment, initially indoctrinated by them, and jumped about a year later into the Assemblys of God, where I've been for most of the last 49 years except for an decade running with the Charismatics in the '70s, and a period of AWOL in the '80s.
I was "Baptised in the Holy Spirit" (to use AoG vernacular) in '73. did "speak in tongues", and still do 39 years later. I HAVE manifested both Prophetic utterance, and Interpretation of tongues at least. I have NEVER been burdened to manifest a "message in tongues" in a public meeting.
Obviously, then, I'm not OPPOSED to "tongues", but don't particularly care for the DOCTRINE of "Initial evidence" which tends to be vigorously defended by Historic Pentecostals, but not so much by Charismatics - most of whom still see it as a "Normative component" of the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit".
"I post this question here because it is my understanding that this is the issue that divides the charismatics from the WOF/AOG/Pentecostals."
I would totally disagree here, and state that the INITIAL disagreement (Late '60s through the mid '70s) between the "Historic Pentecostals" (including the AoG) and the early Charismatics was more one of "Clothesline Holiness".
Since the "Charismatics" tended to be out of the more "Liberal" churches", they tended NOT to be "Holy" (Movies, Alcoholic beverages, Dress codes, Hair length, Makeup, etc.) in the way the "Historic Pentecostals" were. The Charismatics didn't care for our "Rules and Regulations", so we (the Pentecostals) rejected 'em.
And the Charismatics - who were in many cases REALLY experiencing God up front and personal for the first time, visited OUR churches, found them "dead" and "formal" (which they WERE by comparison), and went ahead with their OWN meetings.
When the Charismatic OUTPOURING (1966-1978 or so) ended MANY Charismatics flowed into the Pentecostal denominations, including the AoG, and had a liberalizing effect on us, so that now there's not much actual difference between the genres.
About the only thing we had in common in the early years was "Tongues".
WoF is an originally "Pentecostal" concept publically introduced by Kenneth Hagan in the '40s-'50s, and REALLY popularized (and blown out of proportion) by folks like Kenneth Copeland. Most WoF are out of the "Pentecostal/Charismatic? genres, and as a result, most ALSO Speak in tongues.
"What do you believe?"
That's MY story and I'm a-stick'in to it, y'all!!!
I understand and in a reverse manner.Being a Charismaic Orthodox seems to put one a bit on the free range side of Orthodoxy. Or as one above me in the Church said, "Your a bit of an unorthodox Orthodox".I'm a MEMBER, and a leader in my Assembly of God church, but I'm personally non-denominational, as a "Free range Charismatic".
Evidence yes but what brings you to the point of thinking it's the only evidence? Didn't Paul go on a bit further? Didn't he speak of an more excellent way? Spiritual gifts are given to those baptized in the Holy Spirit. Prophecy is superior following love. I speak,pray and sing in tongues but would never suppose someone isn't baptized in the Holy Spirit because they don't possess this gift. Speaking in tongues is indeed evidence but we must remember that even the devil speaks in the tongue of angels.
Paul wrote his first epistle to the Church in Corinth as he found this Church having grave problems and one of those problems was the misuse and over use of tongues.
It's not that the gift was bad but the intoxication of it led some to put the gift above the love Christ instills in a Christian at salvation.
Paul gave guidelines to keep the misuse in check and I rarely see this employed in our assemblies today. Seems we fear hurting someones feelings rather than to worship as a body of believers. If someone has a word from God, and there is not a gifted interpreter in the congregation the word is not delivered and therefore useless except to the speaker.
Speaking in tongues on Sunday then speaking like an angry drunken sailor on Monday doesn't seem like good evidence of anything.
Tongues without love is simply noise. I agree with the writer I quoted that this gift is not evidence of salvation as that clearly goes directly against the Word of God. But I find those not gifted with tongues often find them selves as second class members in many a Pentecostal Church.
I can clearly remember being held by two sister at the altar with one saying hold on and the other saying let go. They seemed to think I was missing something I needed desperately. Their prayers and howlings produced nothing as some years later I received the gift at home in prayer when I was at a loss about how to pray about a situation.
The gift has nothing to do with some supposed holiness level. The gift has nothing to do with how close you are to God. It is a tool given of God for edification, prayer and worship and should be used with reverence, not as a "LOOK AT ME" tool.
As a pastor, I've found this gift to be the most used and most misunderstood gift of all. It's no wonder non Charismatics think we're faking and insane.Too often we draw tongues like a gun then argue about those not gifted so.
Some good points Oscar. I'd disagree with one key thing you said "If it ain't in the Bible it ain't true". Perhaps it is harder to prove as true but there is much that is not written in the Bible. I'd refer to the last verse in the Gospel of John.
I didn't get the intoxication from a commentator. When it comes to taters I stick to irish and sweet That thought came to me from the intoxication I've experienced as well as through The Spirit after prayer before study. Does that make my words Gospel? Only to me.
I'm interested in your thoughts of Pauls saying he spoke in the tongues of men and angels. Is it really such a stretch to say that a fallen angel can speak both as well?
I do know some who believe praying in tongues confounds the understanding of the devil but that also isn't Bible.
I do agree that the manifestation of tongues in cults is different in tone. I also agree that forced tongues are also different but the language does differ even in those who don't force it. Still I'd take care on deciding what is counterfiet as it could simply be someone trying to let go and it's still very new to them.
For some it's easier to allow the spirit to work than it is to others. We've all resisted at least a time or two.
I recieve the rebuke of the word superior well as it was a poor choice of words.
Better for what was happening in the Church at Corinth at the time would have been a more thought out choice of words. Or as you said the right tool for the job at hand.
It's not hard to grasp Pauls meaning for those who have recieved this gift. Or maybe I'd better say it's easier to grasp when gifted. But then isn't interpretation always easier in the Spirit?
There is a verse concerning the use of gifts in public worship that I think we all should heed. 1Cor 14:40
Randy, if anything contradicts the written Word of God then it is not true.Some good points Oscar. I'd disagree with one key thing you said "If it ain't in the Bible it ain't true". Perhaps it is harder to prove as true but there is much that is not written in the Bible. I'd refer to the last verse in the Gospel of John.
I didn't get the intoxication from a commentator. When it comes to taters I stick to irish and sweet That thought came to me from the intoxication I've experienced as well as through The Spirit after prayer before study. Does that make my words Gospel? Only to me.
I'm interested in your thoughts of Pauls saying he spoke in the tongues of men and angels. Is it really such a stretch to say that a fallen angel can speak both as well? I do know some who believe praying in tongues confounds the understanding of the devil but that also isn't Bible. I do agree that the manifestation of tongues in cults is different in tone. I also agree that forced tongues are also different but the language does differ even in those who don't force it. Still I'd take care on deciding what is counterfiet as it could simply be someone trying to let go and it's still very new to them. For some it's easier to allow the spirit to work than it is to others. We've all resisted at least a time or two.
I recieve the rebuke of the word superior well as it was a poor choice of words. Better for what was happening in the Church at Corinth at the time would have been a more thought out choice of words. Or as you said the right tool for the job at hand.
It's not hard to grasp Pauls meaning for those who have recieved this gift. Or maybe I'd better say it's easier to grasp when gifted. But then isn't interpretation always easier in the Spirit?
There is a verse concerning the use of gifts in public worship that I think we all should heed. 1Cor 14:40
Yet there is valid dispute on the interpretation of that written word. Some times the problem is with the translation from the original or by people's misunderstanding of the context or using the wrong definition of those words.Randy, if anything contradicts the written Word of God then it is not true.
That is true, and that is why we ask Jesus to tell us the truth. Remember we are responsible for our own souls. We need a personal relationship with Jesus and only follow him. Never accept what someone else says about God unless Jesus says it is right.Yet there is valid dispute on the interpretation of that written word. Some times the problem is with the translation from the original or by people's misunderstanding of the context or using the wrong definition of those words.