Time to disentangle?

[Akita Suggagaki]

I am referring to our Biblical take away of God favoring Israel and therefore we should support them no matter what.

We have appropriated the Hebrew scripture for so long that we view it as a universal message meant for all people.
We seem to forget that it is the product and property of the Jews. Yes, there is a lot of great spiritual message to be found there.
But should we really be basing our foreign policy on it?

 

[Estrid]

I am referring to our Biblical take away of God favoring Israel and therefore we should support them no matter what.

We have appropriated the Hebrew scripture for so long that we view it as a universal message meant for all people.
We seem to forget that it is the product and property of the Jews. Yes, there is a lot of great spiritual message to be found there.
But should we really be basing our foreign policy on it?

Try " insane".

 

[public hermit]

I am referring to our Biblical take away of God favoring Israel and therefore we should support them no matter what.

We have appropriated the Hebrew scripture for so long that we view it as a universal message meant for all people.
We seem to forget that it is the product and property of the Jews. Yes, there is a lot of great spiritual message to be found there.
But should we really be basing our foreign policy on it?

I agree that favoring Israel no matter what is wrong-headed, especially if that favoring is based in a certain reading of Hebrew religious texts. But is that the reason for the US policy toward modern Israel? I'm thinking the reasons for unwavering support are based more in political expediency and practical import, e g., dependable alliance in the Middle East (at least up to recent events).

 

[returntosender]

I agree that favoring Israel no matter what is wrong-headed, especially if that favoring is based in a certain reading of Hebrew religious texts. But is that the reason for the US policy toward modern Israel? I'm thinking the reasons for unwavering support are based more in political expediency and practical import, e g., dependable alliance in the Middle East (at least up to recent events).

I don't understand why it's wrong headed? I understand we should be behind the Jews because they are God's people first chosen. They didn't have to let us in. Gentiles we are. Wasn't Paul the one that accepted us?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I am referring to our Biblical take away of God favoring Israel and therefore we should support them no matter what.

We have appropriated the Hebrew scripture for so long that we view it as a universal message meant for all people.
We seem to forget that it is the product and property of the Jews. Yes, there is a lot of great spiritual message to be found there.
But should we really be basing our foreign policy on it?

There's more than just a 'biblical' layer in the politics surrounding Israel. So, we should keep this in mind.

One one level, the political support "for" Israel has to do with the fact that the U.S. led the United Nations to help bring the current nation of Israel into existence following what transpired between World War 1 & 2, with the Holocaust being of prime importance to address.

Secondly, on the evangelical side of things where denominational considerations are concerned, support for Israel depends on which Eschatological scheme one holds, with Dispensationalists being the main supporters of Israel and Preterists (Partial Preterists) being those who typically do not.

The state of Israel is not a clearly decided "thing" that we can arm-chair quarterback with our own personal Ethical standards. For my part, I hope for peace for everyone, wherever they may be.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I understand we should be behind the Jews because they are God's people first chosen.

This is the kind of view I think we need to move away from.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I agree that favoring Israel no matter what is wrong-headed, especially if that favoring is based in a certain reading of Hebrew religious texts. But is that the reason for the US policy toward modern Israel? I'm thinking the reasons for unwavering support are based more in political expediency and practical import, e g., dependable alliance in the Middle East (at least up to recent events).

I am not so sure if it is politicly expedient or practical.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

There's more than just a 'biblical' layer in the politics surrounding Israel. So, we should keep this in mind.

One one level, the political support "for" Israel has to do with the fact that the U.S. led the United Nations to help bring the current nation of Israel into existence following what transpired between World War 1 & 2, with the Holocaust being of prime importance to address.

Secondly, on the evangelical side of things where denominational considerations are concerned, support for Israel depends on which Eschatological scheme one holds, with Dispensationalists being the main supporters of Israel and Preterists (Partial Preterists) being those who typically do not.

The state of Israel is not a clearly decided "thing" that we can arm-chair quarterback with our own personal Ethical standards. For my part, I hope for peace for everyone, wherever they may be.

Yes, the post WWII establishment of National Israel at the cost pf Palestinians is history we cannot erase and must simply try to deal with now.
The dispensationalist view is what I am talking about, I think we need to separate any Biblical interpretation from current political issues.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yes, the post WWII establishment of National Israel at the cost pf Palestinians is history we cannot erase and must simply try to deal with now.
The dispensationalist view is what I am talking about, I think we need to separate any Biblical interpretation from current political issues.

... perhaps, but the problem is that Dispensationalism isn't simply an eschatological position; it's also a certain mode of biblical hermeneutic resulting in a style of exegesis regarding the Bible. So, the only way to sway Dispensationalists is to get them to reconsider their overall interpretive paradigm/mental matrix, which will affect more than just their eschatology and how they perceive the place of Israel in the world.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

... perhaps, but the problem is that Dispensationalism isn't simply an eschatological position; it's also a certain mode of biblical hermeneutic resulting in a style of exegesis regarding the Bible. So, the only way to sway Dispensationalists is to get them to reconsider their overall interpretive paradigm/mental matrix, which will affect more than just their eschatology and how they perceive the place of Israel in the world.

Sounds impossible. Doesn't it?

 

[public hermit]

I am not so sure if it is politicly expedient or practical.

I feel the same way, but my point is the precedent of unwavering support is based in those kinds of reasons vs. those of a religious nature. Although, it is certainly the case that many citizens have religious reasons as a primary impetus for their own unwavering support.

Still, I think it's obvious at this moment in history that our best interests as a country are not necessarily going to be secured by that kind of policy towards Israel. The current lack of restraint and proportionality we are seeing from Israel is not good for global politics, and certainly not for us.

 

[Hazelelponi]

... perhaps, but the problem is that Dispensationalism isn't simply an eschatological position; it's also a certain mode of biblical hermeneutic resulting in a style of exegesis regarding the Bible. So, the only way to sway Dispensationalists is to get them to reconsider their overall interpretive paradigm/mental matrix, which will affect more than just their eschatology and how they perceive the place of Israel in the world.

I'm not a dispensationalist and I'd place my body in front of a Jew to save their life.

You don't have to be a dispensationalist or a religious Zionist to support Israel.

I guarantee that the minute Israel falls the rest of the West will fall after. And it will be bloodier than your worst nightmares.

Israel doesn't require us to be there, just to support them on the world stage and sell them weapons for their defense. If we stop they will fall.

If they fall we will also, Europe first.

Pay attention.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I'm not a dispensationalist and I'd place my body in front of a Jew to save their life.

You don't have to be a dispensationalist or a religious Zionist to support Israel.

I guarantee that the minute Israel falls the rest of the West will fall after. And it will be bloodier than your worst nightmares.

Israel doesn't require us to be there, just to support them on the world stage and sell them weapons for their defense. If we stop they will fall.

If they fall we will also, Europe first.

Pay attention.

Hazelelponi, we've talked before, and I understand very well that one doesn't have to be a Dispensationalist to support Israel. When I was saying what I was saying to @Akita Suggagaki, I was merely delineating the two more firm positions among Christians. I know that one doesn't have to be a Dispensationalist to support Israel, and that it may be support from a Christian for different reasons than that of a Dispensationalist.

As for myself, there's not more to "pay attention to" since I have generally studied both the history and 20th century politics of Israel as it sits in the midst of World Politics, as well as the dozen or so eschatological positions regarding the end times and how those may shape a person's support for or against.

So far, I haven't offered my own view, and I probably won't say anything about it since I've already said things related to it in the past here on CF, and I don't feel like repeating myself. Personally, I wish all people in and around Israel, whether Jew or Muslim, peace.

As for the U.S. falling if Israel were to fall? My view doesn't insist that one thing MUST follow another since I don't think any of us knows what the Bible precisely refers to in absolute terms either way.

Furthermore, if I were to go all in from a political angle, I'd probably gather a bunch of sources to deliberate over first, something along the lines of these two books (just more current and expansively):

Cromartie, Michael, and Richard John Neuhaus. Evangelicals and foreign policy: four perspectives. Univ. Press of America, 1989.​

​

Wittkopf, Eugene R., and James M. McCormick, eds. The domestic sources of American foreign policy: Insights and evidence. Rowman & Littlefield, 2008.​

​

 

[returntosender]

This is the kind of view I think we need to move away from.

Why?

 

[Hazelelponi]

As for myself, there's not more to "pay attention to"

Yes there is. Current events, I'm asking you to pay attention to current events.

That's all.

When cracks showed between the US and Israel there was, what I would call, a collective breath.

They are very nearly in place for total war from the looks of things and we are worried about whether the 5 year old little boy who thinks it's fun to wear mommies shoes should be castrated.

The west isn't able to resist the flood without any values of it's own to oppose it.

And now they know it.

The same blood libel that they paint on Israel is painted on us all... The exact same.(Israel , US, and England together) You don't walk away from that, you don't get to say oh, that wasn't us. We didn't make those decisions. No, there's a blood libel on you.

So you oppose those by force who fight you, and you fight the rest with the truth or you lose, and you don't want to lose. (See Armenian genocide etc)

I'm very very concerned. I'm concerned because the last time the west had a holy war with Islam the west had a very strong value system and ideology. That's gone.

We can only pray. I'm not seeing anything positive lately that tells me we are in a good position here but miracles can happen.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yes there is. Current events, I'm asking you to pay attention to current events.

That's all.

If that's all you're referring to, then of course we can all pay attention. But when I "pay attention," I do so in historical connection with all that's come before and with all that is still in the concourse of being interpreted. And I place my attention to many, many factors that, whether we recognize them or not, also play into what we think is the "meaning of it all."

So, I'm left with: Should I support Israel or should I not? ............... and being that I think that this is too general and dichotomous of a question, I refrain from answering it either way and apply it on a more individual level to each person living in or around Israel.

When cracks showed between the US and Israel there was, what I would call, a collective breath.

They are very nearly in place for total war from the looks of things and we are worried about whether the 5 year old little boy who thinks it's fun to wear mommies shoes should be castrated.

The west isn't able to resist the flood without any values of it's own to oppose it.

And now they know it.

The same blood libel that they paint on Israel is painted on us all... The exact same.(Israel , US, and England together) You don't walk away from that, you don't get to say oh, that wasn't us. We didn't make those decisions. No, there's a blood libel on you.

So you oppose those by force who fight you, and you fight the rest with the truth or you lose, and you don't want to lose. (See Armenian genocide etc)

I'm very very concerned. I'm concerned because the last time the west had a holy war with Islam the west had a very strong value system and ideology. That's gone.

We can only pray. I'm not seeing anything positive lately that tells me we are in a good position here but miracles can happen.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Should I support Israel or should I not? ............... and being that I think that this is too general and dichotomous of a question, I refrain from answering it either way and apply it on a more individual level to each person living in or around Israel.

Well, I'd rather have the democracy than the terrorists as leaders, so I support Israels right to defend itself against acts of war perpetrated against them.

Israel isn't perfect, but I don't think they are nearly as bad as we are. I do think we do too much meddling, but Israel just wants to be left alone really.

Yes they have a problem with the settlements and it's a point of contention, but that doesn't mean Israel shouldn't be allowed to defend itself against attacks.

During an actual war like this where there's so many moving parts because these are just Iran's proxy wars (and Iran has seriously stepped up their game now as Israel is fighting on two fronts) I think Israel itself has to figure their own plans out because they are threading a needle trying to deal with this anyway.

They don't want us involved in their war, they just need people saying hey, Israel is fighting terrorists and have a right to defend themselves

It's not a shocking concept to us but there's Marxist's in the world who want to make that a shocking thing, but it's just because they don't like us. I'm all for changing some of our ways; the US always managed to meddle when we were invited to and I'm perfectly happy fixing that to some degree ...

But I'm not going stupid either. There's a middle ground.

But what does Israel need? Just some one to stand up for our common values on the world stage, the UN and the like.

That and they like buying our weapons - I have no issues we apparently sell them...

In war will I throw them a few dollars if we can on top of that, sure... But we don't have to go crazy, and let's face it we aren't doing for Israel anything even remotely like we are doing for the Ukraine and they have never asked us to. (If they did I'd say no).

That's my stance. I do believe the removal of Hamas is necessary though, that's as much for Palestinians as for Israel. I don't want them in power, they are bad for everyone. I would like to see a real chance for a prosperous Palestinian state when it gains statehood. That's best for everyone there. It will literally never happen if Hamas retains power

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Why?

Because it is one religious interpretation of a religious text that belongs to one ethnic group. Naturally that one ethnic group is "favored".
To base a foreign policy on it is inappropriate.

 

[mindlight]

I am referring to our Biblical take away of God favoring Israel and therefore we should support them no matter what.

We have appropriated the Hebrew scripture for so long that we view it as a universal message meant for all people.
We seem to forget that it is the product and property of the Jews. Yes, there is a lot of great spiritual message to be found there.
But should we really be basing our foreign policy on it?

That reads as being a little weak given the stakes here. There are three ways to answer this post, all of which overthrow the sentiment of your OP - which would you prefer to focus on?

1) With the bible, which shows the special place of Israel in God's plan and the significance of the return of the Jews to their homeland after 2000 years in exile. God gave the land to the Jews and the presence of Messianic Jews in Israel secures that eternal promise.
2) With an exposure of the international actors pushing the pro-Palestinian viewpoint. Are you just lapping up Arab, Iranian, Russian and Chinese propaganda here?
3) By telling the story of Hamas. Rivers of blood, they started this, deliberate policy of using human shields etc.

 

[David Lamb]

They didn't have to let us in. Gentiles we are. Wasn't Paul the one that accepted us?

The Jews didn't "let gentiles in". Remember how God gave the apostle Peter a dream (about ceremonially clean and unclean animals) to show him that the gospel, the good news about Jesus, is for all, not just for the Jews.