This country was founded on God.

Aquatica

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Theres a great deal of issues in politics these days, one example is religion in schools.

I personally believe since we have so many people of all sorts of backgrounds, public schools should not be teaching or influencing students to be a specific religion. I don't mean ban religion out of schools, if a kid wants to wear a cross around their neck let them. Also, there are large amounts of private Christian schools. If you want your kid to have that influence in their life send them there.

When I tell this to people they always get angry at me, ALWAYS using the sentence, "This country was founded on God!"

But heres my point... it's simply not true. The settlers that came to America came from all sorts of backgrounds. Whether they wanted to get rich, wanted an adventure or just simply wanted to start a new life, but for the most part, large amounts of these settlers came because they wanted freedom of religion. The right to worship and believe whatever they want. THAT is what this country was founded on.

Besides, the country has changed a lot since we were founded. This country was also founded on slavery, it's just not an adequate argument. Can anybody tell me WHY people use this sentence so much?
 
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Alexrkr

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Yes, it was founded on God. The second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence is proof of this.

I would respectfully disagree. The Declaration of Independence is just that. Technically it wasn't needed. England kind of already knew that. It does mention a creator but not specific one. It says "their Creator" which I interpret as acknowledgment of all faiths that may be held in the country by different people. After all many people were religious. Many of our founding fathers weren't and even had a distaste for it but thats beside the point.

This country was founded on freedom. To be released of the shackles of a Theocratic Monarchy. If we were founded on god I think they would have made it clear to not have church state separation, and not to have amendments respecting everyone's right to worship or not worship whom ever they please; unlike what the first commandment states.
 
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seashale76

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Can anybody tell me WHY people use this sentence so much?

Because Social Studies is a relatively ignored subject and isn't considered important. When history is delved into, many students are indoctrinated into a very general, misleading, and watered down Disneyfied version of just about everything (and most teachers don't realize they were taught misinformation themselves). Nobody likes thinking they were fed misinformation in a school somewhere. No wonder it is a universally hated subject! The interesting parts are left out entirely.
 
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Stephen Kendall

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Old American school text books (pre-1940's) were heavily Christian and for Christians (documentary: America's Godly Heritage: Wallbuilders documentary on Netflix online instant play.)

America was dominated by Christian influences. This type of America didn't suit the changing composition of the country. It finally changed. Today, history is ignored or politely rewritten with little emphasis on it Christian influence. Politically right views dominate most every spectrum of American society. We now know how great, wonderful and factual Islam is, due to this view. Lies aren't good for anyone, yet our history books now are having some due to the political rightness of our times.

The masses (people told what to think, cleverly so) are controlled throughout history for the uses of war, greed, truths (made-up type) and selfish ambitions of the few.

My father would always tell us kids, "Don't trust anything that you are told and only half of what you see." Having Christ helps a lot.
 
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PastorJim

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Besides, the country has changed a lot since we were founded.

What has happened since the country was founded doesn't negate the principles upon which the country was founded.

This country was also founded on slavery

I look forward to seeing your evidence for this.

Can anybody tell me WHY people use this sentence so much?

Because it's true.

Each of our founding documents attests to this. The writings of the Founders attest to this. I would strongly encourage you to take a look at the text of the SCoTUS' ruling on the Trinity case.

You might also want to google the constitutions of most of the states, which affirms the acknowlegement of those states on the providence of God and the need to adhere to His laws.
 
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Alexrkr

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Because it's true.

I would highly disagree. Look at Thomas Paine's Age of Reason. Read the personal letter sent between Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams. They had not only been non-religious but they had a disdain for it. George Washington never did sacrament. When a church official confronted him on it George said he'd do the right thing to be a good influence on the children, he never showed up to church again. These men were not exactly men of god.

The Declaration of Independence mentions a creator but I've already responded to someone as how that is an invalid arugment. I also pointed out how the first amedment and the first commandment are in direct conflict with each other. The constitution makes no mention of a creator and I believe that document it more important than the latter.

I think people are confused because churches try to meld patriotism with loving Jebus. Try to paint the founding fathers as Jesus' forgotten disciples. It seems people tend to misconstrue the reasons for the founding of this country. I suggest studying exactly those things and I think you'll find you are (respectfully) mistaken.
 
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PastorJim

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I would highly disagree. Look at Thomas Paine's Age of Reason.

OK. So, how does Paine's pamphlet negate all of the other writings of the Founding Fathers, Pilgrims, and state legislatures?

Read the personal letter sent between Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams. They had not only been non-religious but they had a disdain for it.

I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but Ben Franklin singlehandedly bankrolled the evangelistic ministry of George Whitfield, who was the Billy Graham of his day. A very strange thing for someone who has disdain for religion, don't you think?

In addition, both Washington and Franklin were such prominent members of Christ Church in Philadelphia that they owned their own pews there.

I truly do not understand how anyone can know anything about Washington and claim that he had disdain for religion. It was Washington, after all, who directed Congress to establish a military chaplain corps and mandated that his men attend Sunday services.
 
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seashale76

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This topic has been brought up here before on this board. I'll just re-post some of my old replies as they are relevant to the topic.

Pre-independence, the particular religious views that were tolerated depended entirely on which of the colonies one happened to be talking about. More than one completely supported and enforced the British State Church. Also, it is factual that the oppressed groups who started their own colonies completely suppressed dissenting opinions/beliefs within their jurisdictions, pre-independence. In other words, colonists did not have true freedom of religion.

The First British Colony in North America was Virginia. It was started by a company called The Virginia Company. The goal wasn't religious freedom, but to make money for the shareholders. Groups liked the Baptists may have come to the Americas for religious freedom, but they were stoned in places like Virginia. Just like the later colony in Massachusetts (c. 1620), who weren't Anglican and didn't allow anyone to dissent from their beliefs (persecuting and killing them). In other words, many who came for religious freedom didn't want to extend the same courtesy to those who didn't agree with them once they had their own little colonies.

The Founding Fathers were very concerned with making sure people weren't taxed for a state church (as they certainly had been in Virginia). This is why the Virginia Statute For Religious Freedom (1786) was such an important and innovative piece of legislation.


I finished reading The Faiths of our Fathers: What America's Founders Really Believed by Alf J. Mapp, Jr. recently and it gave some well researched insight with documented primary sources from various of our founding fathers. The Constitution was written with the idea in mind of the separation of Church and state. These men were both religious and irreligious in their thinking and were influenced by the Enlightenment, their own upbringings, and sometimes persecution for their faith (as was the case with Charles Carroll of Carrollton in that as a Catholic, even though he was extremely wealthy and superbly educated, he wasn't allowed the rights of a citizen in pre-Revolutionary Maryland; despite this he became respected and was a signer of the Declaration of Independence). The idea was freedom of religious belief (though rights of atheists lagged behind the rights of theists in general), but there was a certain virtuous morality that they thought society should adhere to in general, which they thought Judeo-Christian ideas to encompass, but many times these men held that these same ideas were espoused by the Greeks, and at times held them in even higher esteem.

Anyway, if you could imagine, Virginia (being formerly under British rule with the people taxed for the State Church Anglican/Episcopalian) still had such taxation in place shortly after the Revolution. Those such as Thomas Jefferson and James Madison were responsible for the passing of the Virginia Statute For Religious Freedom (by the Virginia General Assembly in January 1786). Groups such as the Baptists and the Presbyterians were all for it for obvious reasons (they had been persecuted heavily as they weren't part of the state church). The Jews and Catholics welcomed such news as well.

Some of the founding fathers disagreed with each other and some hoped that the government wouldn't take the same turn as the French did with their outright disdain and hatred of religion. Most were more content to form a government that allowed everyone to hold to their own beliefs. They were a diverse group of men religiously (even those who were officially Anglican/Episcopalian) and they could all agree that they should have the right to disagree without being persecuted or taxed for it.

Regarding the Founding Fathers:

Jefferson was certainly a deist, but looking at the man throughout his life, we see the evolution from atheist to liberal heterodox christian (not believing in the trinity, the virgin birth, and discounting all miracles of the NT). Despite this, he was a supposed vestryman in the Anglican church and attended services regularly at Burton parish church in Williamsburg, VA (while he lived there). He hated denominationalism and loved it when various christian groups met together. (It should be noted that being a vestryman didn't have all that much to do with being particularly religious.)

Benjamin Franklin was raised with the idea that he might go into the ministry in the Congregationalist Church. He later developed somewhat of a polytheistic worldview for himself. Yes, really. However, he was quite good at making people think that he was one of them and believed what they did.

James Madison was religious, but was never confirmed in the Anglican Church. He apparently was fed up enough with the Anglicans not to attend the College of William and Mary and opted to go to the Presbyterian Princeton instead. James Madison completed opposed the setting up of the chaplaincy in Congress.

George Washington believed in God and went to church faithfully. He was even a vestryman in the Anglican Church. However, he was never confirmed and refused to take communion his whole life.

George Mason was quite religious, but that didn't stop him from being one of THE most influential writers of the Virginia Bill of Rights. This man was brilliant.

Patrick Henry became a lot more religious as his life went on and fought against Jefferson in his separation of Church and State campaign.

Charles Carroll was extremely religious. Actually, his life would have been much easier if he had simply given up his Catholicism to become Anglican. He grew up in Maryland where (even though he was a land owner) he wasn't allowed to vote simply because he was Catholic. He was also extremely well educated for his time. His biggest fear was that his religious freedom would once more be suppressed, which was why he was a big proponent of the separation of church and state, who at the same time also worried about a state forming that would be too anti-religious (he wanted balance).

Alexander Hamilton was another who had his moments of being off and on regarding religion. However, in his later years, he was genuinely very active in the Anglican/Episcopal Church. He was even grudgingly allowed communion after receiving a mortal wound in his fatal duel with Aaron Burr.

As to what I think: I think there should still be a general morality that we all appeal to, that shouldn't be forgotten even in the realm of politics. However, I don't want an established state religion in this country either. Chances are, it wouldn't be even remotely like my own beliefs, and I certainly don't want to have the whatever is popular and widely promoted in the heterodox Christianity of America shoved down my throat.
 
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Alexrkr

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OK. So, how does Paine's pamphlet negate all of the other writings of the Founding Fathers, Pilgrims, and state legislatures?

I did mention other things other than Paine's book. Don't ignore things. They happen to show in the least a questioning manor to religion.

I should have also mentioned Thomas Jefferson's "Jefferson's Bible" (google it) in which he took the New testament (got rid of the old testament out right) and took out every part mentioning anything supernatural, including Jesus being god. He really only left Jesus' words, which aren't many since what was left basically fell apart.

I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but Ben Franklin singlehandedly bankrolled the evangelistic ministry of George Whitfield, who was the Billy Graham of his day. A very strange thing for someone who has disdain for religion, don't you think?

I bet that looked great in the public eye.

In addition, both Washington and Franklin were such prominent members of Christ Church in Philadelphia that they owned their own pews there.

Public eye. I doubt your info is valid. I've read Washington's diaries and he wrote he rarely attended church. Maybe he did own it but just for his family. Men like Mason Weems confuse people about Washington's religious life (he is also the guy who came up with the fabled "cherry tree" story)

These men were freemasons, a group known for their lack of religious beliefs. Most of the founding fathers were deists.

I truly do not understand how anyone can know anything about Washington and claim that he had disdain for religion. It was Washington, after all, who directed Congress to establish a military chaplain corps and mandated that his men attend Sunday services.

I didn't say he had a disdain for religion. None of this is relevant anyway. A mans religion or lack-there-of doesn't show his intent for the country he is about to establish. The Constitution and the Treaty of Tripoli I think negates any notion that the country was founded on any god, let alone the Christian god.
 
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PastorJim

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I doubt your info is valid.

It's valid.

I've read Washington's diaries and he wrote he rarely attended church. Maybe he did own it but just for his family.

Believe what you like. Washington did attend church and was a man of great faith.

Men like Mason Weems confuse people about Washington's religious life

Unfortunately for you, Mason Weems is not the only source of information.

Are you aware that Washington kept a personal journal of his prayers and devotions?

Here is a portion of one of those devotions:

Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great creator of heaven & earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven, in pity and compassion upon me thy servant, who humbly prostrate myself before thee, sensible of thy mercy and my own misery; there is an infinite distance between thy glorious majesty and me, thy poor creature, the work of thy hand, between thy infinite power, and my weakness, thy wisdom, and my folly, thy eternal Being, and my mortal frame, but, O Lord, I have set myself at a greater distance from thee by my sin and wickedness, and humbly acknowledge the corruption of my nature and the many rebellions of my life. I have sinned against heaven and before thee, in thought, word & deed; I have contemned thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to done, and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against light, despised thy mercies and judgments, and broken my vows and promises; I have neglected tech means of Grace, and opportunities of becoming better; my iniquities are multiplies, and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing, and desire to be vile in my own eyes, as I have rendered myself vile in thinned. I humbly beseech thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins, for the sake of thy dear Son, my only saviour, Jesus Christ, who came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance; be pleased to renew my nature and write thy laws upon my heart, and help me to live, righteously, soberly, and godly in this evil worlds; make me humble, meek, patient and contented, and work in me the grace of thy holy spirit. prepare me for death and judgment, and let the thoughts thereof awaken me to a greater care and study to approve myself unto thee in well doing. bless our rulers in church & state. Help all in affliction or adversity--give them patience and a sanctified use of their affliction, and in thy good time deliverance from them; forgive my enemies, take me unto thy protection this day, keep me in perfect peace, which I ask in the name & for the sake of Jesus. Amen. (William J. Johnson George Washington, the Christian(New York: The Abingdon Press, New York & Cincinnati, 1919), pp. 24-35)

These men were freemasons, a group known for their lack of religious beliefs.

Then I take it you're not familiar with Masons. Masons are very well known for their religous beliefs.

I didn't say he had a disdain for religion.

Actually, you did. You said, "Read the personal letter sent between Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams. They had not only been non-religious but they had a disdain for it."

The Treaty of Tripoli I think negates any notion that the country was founded on any god, let alone the Christian god.

Actually, the Treaty of Tripoli only says that we're not a theocracy.

I would strongly suggest that you look up the SCoTUS' ruling in the Trinity case, which states that our nation was founded on Christian principles.
 
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PastorJim

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The First Charter of Virginia (granted by King James I, on April 10, 1606)

• We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God…
Instructions for the Virginia Colony (1606)
Lastly and chiefly the way to prosper and achieve good success is to make yourselves all of one mind for the good of your country and your own, and to serve and fear God the Giver of all Goodness, for every plantation which our Heavenly Father hath not planted shall be rooted out.


The Mayflower Compact (authored by William Bradford)
“Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together…”


John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]


John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”

• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817] |


Samuel Adams:

“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

“ Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity… and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.” [October 4, 1790]


John Quincy Adams:

• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.

“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61


Elias Boudinot: | Portrait of Elias Boudinot

“ Be religiously careful in our choice of all public officers . . . and judge of the tree by its fruits.”


Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence

" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]


Benjamin Franklin:

“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."


Alexander Hamilton:

• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.

“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”
On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."


John Hancock:

• “In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America’s many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.

"A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775"


Patrick Henry:

"Orator of the Revolution."
• This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”
—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

“The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed.”


John Jay:

“ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.

“Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson.” [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]

Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]
 
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PastorJim

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Samuel Johnston:

• “It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
[Elliot’s Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]


James Madison

“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

• I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temportal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.
Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773)

• In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible.

“ An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia” Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress

“It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other.”

• A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven. [Letter by Madison to William Bradford [urging him to make sure of his own salvation] November 9, 1772]

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22:

“For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”


Baron Charles Montesquieu, wrote in 1748; “Nor is there liberty if the power of judging is not separated from legislative power and from executive power. If it [the power of judging] were joined to legislative power, the power over life and liberty of the citizens would be arbitrary, for the judge would be the legislature if it were joined to the executive power, the judge could have the force of an oppressor. All would be lost if the same … body of principal men … exercised these three powers." Madison claimed Isaiah 33:22 as the source of division of power in government
See also: pp.241-242 in Teaching and Learning America’s Christian History: The Principle approach by Rosalie Slater]



James McHenry – Signer of the Constitution
Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.


Jedediah Morse:

"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."


John Peter Gabriel Muhlenberg

In a sermon delivered to his Virginia congregation on Jan. 21, 1776, he preached from Ecclesiastes 3.
Arriving at verse 8, which declares that there is a time of war and a time of peace, Muhlenberg noted that this surely was not the time of peace; this was the time of war. Concluding with a prayer, and while standing in full view of the congregation, he removed his clerical robes to reveal that beneath them he was wearing the uniform of an officer in the Continental army! He marched to the back of the church; ordered the drum to beat for recruits and over three hundred men joined him, becoming the Eighth Virginia Brigade. John Peter Muhlenberg finished the Revolution as a Major-General, having been at Valley Forge and having participated in the battles of Brandywine, Germantown, Monmouth, Stonypoint, and Yorktown.


Thomas Paine:

“ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.”

“ The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.” “The Existence of God--1810”


Benjamin Rush:

• “I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and take so little pains to prevent them…we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all others, constitutes the soul of republicanism.” “By withholding the knowledge of [the Scriptures] from children, we deprive ourselves of the best means of awakening moral sensibility in their minds.” [Letter written (1790’s) in Defense of the Bible in all schools in America]

• “Christianity is the only true and perfect religion.”

• “If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into our world would have been unnecessary.”

"Let the children who are sent to those schools be taught to read and write and above all, let both sexes be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education”
Letters of Benjamin Rush, "To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for Free Schools", March 28, 1787


Justice Joseph Story:

“ I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.”
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]

“ Infidels and pagans were banished from the halls of justice as unworthy of credit.” [Life and letters of Joseph Story, Vol. II 1851, pp. 8-9.]

“ At the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration [i.e., the First Amendment], the general, if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship.”
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]


Noah Webster:

“ The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men.”

“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]
Let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God [Exodus 18:21]. . . . If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted . . . If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49]

“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.” [Noah Webster. History. p. 339]

“The Bible was America’s basic textbook in all fields.” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]

“Education is useless without the Bible” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5 ]


George Washington:

The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..."

“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]
During his inauguration, Washington took the oath as prescribed by the Constitution but added several religious components to that official ceremony. Before taking his oath of office, he summoned a Bible on which to take the oath, added the words “So help me God!” to the end of the oath, then leaned over and kissed the Bible.

Nelly Custis-Lewis (Washington’s adopted daughter):

Is it necessary that any one should [ask], “Did General Washington avow himself to be a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country."

“ O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.”

“ I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.”
[George Washington; from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752
William J. Johnson George Washington, the Christian (New York: The Abingdon Press, New York & Cincinnati, 1919), pp. 24-35.]


"Although guided by our excellent Constitution in the discharge of official duties, and actuated, through the whole course of my public life, solely by a wish to promote the best interests of our country; yet, without the beneficial interposition of the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, we could not have reached the distinguished situation which we have attained with such unprecedented rapidity. To HIM, therefore, should we bow with gratitude and reverence, and endeavor to merit a continuance of HIS special favors". [1797 letter to John Adams]
 
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seashale76

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Pastor Jim,

Didn't I just see you in a GT thread saying that Catholics weren't Christians and saying who was and wasn't Christian among the rich and famous of today, yet here you're giving masons, a Catholic, and a few other men (of whom some felt religion to be more of a public duty than anything- and important only insofar as religion instilled morals in the uneducated masses) the benefit of the doubt? Truly? Convenient. In both sets, we have people who had religious views that were more or less genuine throughout their lives. The final condition of their hearts we'll never know.
 
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Alexrkr

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Believe what you like. Washington did attend church and was a man of great faith.

I read his personal writings, I think the best source for this info. Why are you so unwilling to move on this? It's ridiculous.

Unfortunately for you, Mason Weems is not the only source of information.

Why is that unfortunate, you're the dogmatic one not letting it go.

Are you aware that Washington kept a personal journal of his prayers and devotions?

I would like to see your sources if you don't mind.

Then I take it you're not familiar with Masons. Masons are very well known for their religous beliefs.

Well actually they are to profess to the belief of a supreme being but are not to elaborate which one (if it were to be a religious one or not). This could include deism.

Actually, you did. You said, "Read the personal letter sent between Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams. They had not only been non-religious but they had a disdain for it."

I don't see Washington's name there. We were discussing Washington, no?

Actually, the Treaty of Tripoli only says that we're not a theocracy. I would strongly suggest that you look up the SCoTUS' ruling in the Trinity case, which states that our nation was founded on Christian principles.

Treaty of Tripoli Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;

and from what I hear Christians have this little notion of a god figure or something. As for the trinity case it is brought up a lot in this discussion. This was a statement of one man not the Supreme court. Brewer's statement occurred in dicta. Not a representation of the courts decision.

Why do you care whether or not its a nation founded on god? How does that change how it operates now?
[/I]
 
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PastorJim

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Pastor Jim,

Didn't I just see you in a GT thread saying that Catholics weren't Christians

No, you saw me saying that there are many people in the Catholic church who are not Christians, just as there are many people in the Baptist church who are not Christians and many people in the Methodist church who are not Christians and many people in the Presbyterian church who are not Christians...

and saying who was and wasn't Christian among the rich and famous of today, yet here you're giving masons, a Catholic, and a few other men (of whom some felt religion to be more of a public duty than anything- and important only insofar as religion instilled morals in the uneducated masses) the benefit of the doubt? Truly? Convenient.

It isn't a matter of convenience. It's a matter of examining their doctrine and their fruit.

In both sets, we have people who had religious views that were more or less genuine throughout their lives.

Religious views, no matter how genuine, cannot save anybody.

The final condition of their hearts we'll never know.

I agree. That's why, if you had read my posts in that thread, not only would you know that I didn't say that all Catholics aren't Christians, but that I also said that we're never to judge the heart, which we cannot know, but that Christ has commanded us to judge actions and doctrines.
 
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PastorJim

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I read his personal writings, I think the best source for this info. Why are you so unwilling to move on this?

Because you're lying and I think somebody should stand up to you. I've provided examples of his own words and the testimony of those who knew him, including his own daughter, that say he was a Christian.

You haven't shown any evidence at all to contradict what we know about Washington

Why is that unfortunate, you're the dogmatic one not letting it go.

It's unfortunate, because we have many more sources that say that he is a Christian than the one you claim that says he is not.

I would like to see your sources if you don't mind.

I just provided you with many of them.

Well actually they are to profess to the belief of a supreme being but are not to elaborate which one (if it were to be a religious one or not). This could include deism.

That may very well be, but even deism is a religious belief. First, you claim that they have no religious beliefs and then you claim that they're "required to profess to the belief of a supreme being (sic)".

Which is it?

I don't see Washington's name there. We were discussing Washington, no?

We're discussing Washington, Jefferson, Adams, and Franklin.


Treaty of Tripoli Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;

That's right. Now, read the whole thing. It says that the United States is not theocracy, not that we're not founded on Christian principles.

This was a statement of one man not the Supreme court. Brewer's statement occurred in dicta. Not a representation of the courts decision.

Actually, when the court renders a decision, the court elects one justice to represent their views.

I would encourage you to look up the text of the court's decison in the Trinity case. It shows that the SCOTUS did rule that the nation was founded on Christian ideals.

Why do you care whether or not its a nation founded on god? How does that change how it operates now?

It changes a great deal. Our liberty is based on the premise that all men are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights. Take away the Creator and you take away those rights.
 
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Alexrkr

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Pastor Jim you are quote mining. Not providing viable sources. I think you need to go over the conversation again because you seem to misconstrue what I am saying. I'm not lying to you either. I think you are just mistaken, getting information from bad sources. The Treaty of Tripoli is clear in what it says but as many dogmatic people do, you twist it to mean what you'd like. The Trinity case is old and tired, I've been over it again and again its one mans opinion not the supreme court ruling for the entire United States.

We have rights because the constitution, not because of a creator. Take the constitution out of the equation and see how long we'll go with our rights. You are a very frustrating and stubborn person. I would though like to know where you are getting your information from. I ask cause I tend to find that when I receive quotes of this manner that there is more to the story, either its a bad source or its taken out of context. I told you my sources: Washington's Dairies, The personal letters of the founding fathers. I didn't get them online, you'll probably have to go to a library like I did.

Best of luck.
 
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PastorJim

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Pastor Jim you are quote mining. Not providing viable sources.

I did provide viable sources. These are books and documents that you can find in any library.

To borrow a line from Todd Friel, I like the sources I've provided a lot more than the sources you have failed to provide.

I think you are just mistaken, getting information from bad sources.

No, these sources are authentic.

The Treaty of Tripoli is clear in what it says but as many dogmatic people do, you twist it to mean what you'd like.

I agree. There are many people who twist it to try to make it say that the United States was not founded on Christian principles.

The Trinity case is old and tired, I've been over it again and again its one mans opinion not the supreme court ruling for the entire United States.

You keep saying that it's one man's opinion, but that's not how it works. When the SCOTUS makes a ruling, they pick one justice to write a summary of the decision. They then review it and vote to approve or not approve it.

So it is not just "one man's opinion". It is a summary of the ruling made by the majority of the court, not just one man.

We have rights because the constitution, not because of a creator.

Actually, the Constitution doesn't grant our rights. It grants the government it's rights.

I would though like to know where you are getting your information from.

I got them from the sources I listed. In addition, I have an M.A. in American History (pre-1865) and a B.A. in political science from Auburn University. I also have an M.A. in Military History from the University of Pennsylvania.

And you?
 
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