Theologica Germanica?

[Thatgirloncfforums]

LibriVox

Has anyone read this and what are your thoughts?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Haven't read it. Would see it as reflecting the Devotio Moderna.


Devotio Moderna - Wikipedia.

 

[Petros2015]

Has anyone read this and what are your thoughts?

No, but thank you! Sounds right up my alley and I love a good librivox. Listening to the first Ch 1-5 now

 

[Petros2015]

LOVE it so far, Ch1... I can hear some apophatic roots, perhaps it was something Meister_Eckhart might have written, inspired or was inspired by. He was circa that era in Germany Meister Eckhart - Wikipedia

Definitely a real blessing to me this morning

I love the Old Things. The measure of truth is, if you wrap something up and put in the fridge, how fresh is it 2 weeks later? Most of the time it is mystery meat and you'll know not to put it in your mouth. Truth, you can wrap up and leave it in the fridge for 2 weeks, 2 months, 2 years, 2 centuries, 2 millennia... and it will still taste fresh when you take it out.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

When I took a class on Reformation History, this was one of the precursors for the Reformation itself.

Friends of God - Wikipedia

 

[Petros2015]

Friends of God - Wikipedia

Ah yep there he is: The movement grew out of the preaching and teaching of Meister Eckhart,

 

[philadelphos]

Thanks for posting this.

"It resembles the famous work of Thomas a Kempis in exhibiting Christian piety as an humble imitation of the life of Christ on earth, but goes beyond it, almost to the very verge of pantheism, by teaching in the strongest terms the annihilation of self-will and the absorption of the soul in God. Without being polemical, it represents by its intense inwardness a striking contrast to the then prevailing practice of religion as a mechanical and monotonous round of outward acts and observances."

Philip Schaff: History of the Christian Church, Volume VII. Modern Christianity. The German Reformation - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

On face value, Theologica Germanic seems out there in the mystic/monastic/ascetic realm and contradictory to directions in Scripture regarding doing "deeds" and "good works". It appealed to Luther likely because he was superstitious, mystical, and nationalistic. Ultimately for him the Reformation 'movement' of protesting, semper reformanda etc, was more practical and pressing in his time. Popular.

i.e. "Faith without works is dead" (James 2)

BIBLE VERSES ABOUT DOING GOOD DEEDS

 

[Petros2015]

and contradictory to directions in Scripture regarding doing "deeds" and "good works".

I'll have to listen to the whole document to see if I agree with that assessment; a lot of the mystics of those periods were misinterpreted and this was a common accusation levelled against them. When they said something similar to "I no longer need to do these things" I think what they meant was "I simply do them naturally now because my nature has been changed or I no longer need to choose to do them, the choice has been removed"

Unfortunately, if this was true, it did not prevent them from being accused of being heretics (as was Eckhart) and then (sometimes) burned at the stake. Marguerite Porete was of a similar (perhaps pre-cursor) school/theology at the time and it didn't end well.

i.e. "Faith without works is dead" (James 2)

I'm... not certain that Luther was the staunchest defender of James...
(though he may not have been as against it as he has sometimes been accused of being)

The “Epistle of Straw”: Reflections on Luther and the Epistle of James - The Gospel Coalition

At any rate I haven't listened to the whole Theologica Germanica but I'll keep Philip Schaff's commentary in mind to see if I agree with him, or he's the sort that likes campfires.

 

[philadelphos]

I'll have to listen to the whole document to see if I agree with that assessment; a lot of the mystics of those periods were misinterpreted and this was a common accusation levelled against them. When they said something similar to "I no longer need to do these things" I think what they meant was "I simply do them naturally now because my nature has been changed or I no longer need to choose to do them, the choice has been removed"

Unfortunately, if this was true, it did not prevent them from being accused of being heretics (as was Eckhart) and then (sometimes) burned at the stake. Marguerite Porete was of a similar school/theology at the time and it didn't end well.

I'm... not certain that Luther was the staunchest defender of James...
(though he may not have been as against it as he has sometimes been accused of being)

The “Epistle of Straw”: Reflections on Luther and the Epistle of James - The Gospel Coalition

At any rate I haven't listened to the whole Theologica Germanica but I'll keep Philip Schaff's commentary in mind to see if I agree with him, or he's the sort that likes campfires.

Fair point.

"Deeds" and "good works" I believe are defined in Christ's commandments and sermons, cross-referenced to Mosaic commandments. Done out of the heart, in a spirit of love, "charity", which Scripture says surpasses (Mosaic) law. Less ritualism or token religiosity as adjacent to industrialism/capitalism, which is how most denominations interpret/appropriate/practice. Which the mystic might better understand the spiritual/essential motivation to love. As opposed to papal religiosity, because the priest/father/friar prescribed a set of "deeds" (and prayers) for "penance".

i.e. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14)

Schaff is impartial ime, but you can decide for yourself.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

LibriVox

Has anyone read this and what are your thoughts?

Along the same vein:

The Platonism of Martin Luther

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Annihilism is something that I picked up on too. I am weary therefore. Nevertheless, how do you interpret, "It is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me and the life I live I live by the faith of the Son of God...."?

Thanks for posting this.

"It resembles the famous work of Thomas a Kempis in exhibiting Christian piety as an humble imitation of the life of Christ on earth, but goes beyond it, almost to the very verge of pantheism, by teaching in the strongest terms the annihilation of self-will and the absorption of the soul in God. Without being polemical, it represents by its intense inwardness a striking contrast to the then prevailing practice of religion as a mechanical and monotonous round of outward acts and observances."

Philip Schaff: History of the Christian Church, Volume VII. Modern Christianity. The German Reformation - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

On face value, Theologica Germanic seems out there in the mystic/monastic/ascetic realm and contradictory to directions in Scripture regarding doing "deeds" and "good works". It appealed to Luther likely because he was superstitious, mystical, and nationalistic. Ultimately for him the Reformation 'movement' of protesting, semper reformanda etc, was more practical and pressing in his time. Popular.

i.e. "Faith without works is dead" (James 2)

BIBLE VERSES ABOUT DOING GOOD DEEDS

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Please do give us your opinion on Shaff. It would be most helpful. Thanks.

I'll have to listen to the whole document to see if I agree with that assessment; a lot of the mystics of those periods were misinterpreted and this was a common accusation levelled against them. When they said something similar to "I no longer need to do these things" I think what they meant was "I simply do them naturally now because my nature has been changed or I no longer need to choose to do them, the choice has been removed"

Unfortunately, if this was true, it did not prevent them from being accused of being heretics (as was Eckhart) and then (sometimes) burned at the stake. Marguerite Porete was of a similar (perhaps pre-cursor) school/theology at the time and it didn't end well.

I'm... not certain that Luther was the staunchest defender of James...
(though he may not have been as against it as he has sometimes been accused of being)

The “Epistle of Straw”: Reflections on Luther and the Epistle of James - The Gospel Coalition

At any rate I haven't listened to the whole Theologica Germanica but I'll keep Philip Schaff's commentary in mind to see if I agree with him, or he's the sort that likes campfires.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

As I was listening to the T. G. being read , I noticed much that resonates with Lutheranism.

When I took a class on Reformation History, this was one of the precursors for the Reformation itself.

Friends of God - Wikipedia

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

How so?

Haven't read it. Would see it as reflecting the Devotio Moderna.


Devotio Moderna - Wikipedia.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

How so?

OH I guess in looking at it closer it precedes that movement and reflects some of the late medieval Catholic mysticism.

 

[philadelphos]

Annihilism is something that I picked up on too. I am weary therefore. Nevertheless, how do you interpret, "It is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me and the life I live I live by the faith of the Son of God...."?

Maybe someone will correct me but "the annihilation of self-will and the absorption of the soul in God" is not "annihilism" or "annihilationism", but about annihilation/eradication/nullification of "self-will".

Hence the author's dichotomy of "physical" vs "spiritual". The phrasing speaks volumes on context and motivation.

All things work together to deepen the sense of the corruptness of the church to lead men onwards from their physical to spiritual wants, to awaken reflection on the judgements of God and to fix their eyes on the indications of the future" (28:00)

Gal 2 is appropriate to quote since Gal 2:16 offers a clue: "...by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed (episteusamen) in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ..."

The verb episteusamen (ἐπιστεύσαμεν) when parsed is aorist active indicative - 1st Person Plural. Which is "active", as opposed to "annihilation of self-will" (inactive). --- But aorist expresses things that happen in general, without asserting a time. "It can describes something that simply is regardless of any time reference (“gnomic”)." (Mounce)

"Used especially of the faith by which a man embraces Jesus, i. e. a conviction, full of joyful trust, that Jesus is the Messiah — the divinely appointed author of eternal salvation in the kingdom of God, conjoined with obedience to Christ: πιστεύω τόν υἱόν τοῦ Θεοῦ εἶναι Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, Acts 8:37 Rec.; ἐπιστεύθη (was believed on (cf. Winers Grammar, § 39, 1 a.; Buttmann, 175 (152))) ἐν κόσμῳ, 1 Timothy 3:16. the phrase πιστεύειν εἰς τόν Ἰησοῦν, εἰς τόν υἱόν τοῦ Θεοῦ, etc., is very common; properly, to have a faith directed unto, believing or in faith to give oneself up to, Jesus, etc. (cf. Winers Grammar, 213 (200f); (Buttmann, 174 (151))):"

Thayers G4100 - pisteuō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

The object of faith/belief being Christ; the completion/manifestation/solidification/realisation of faith/belief; Yeshua being "salvation". He is the end of the "faith" per se, the "omega". Reaching him is the goal the destination of faith. How then can faith possibly be inactive? Perhaps though for a moment only, symbolically/ritually/meditatively/prayerfully in Sabbath "rest". It's both spiritual and physical. Both presently and eternally. Entering into Sabbath rest is metaphorical for entering into Christ's eternal rest. Like a child into a mother's womb, and being "born again" as promised to Nicodemus. Not 9mos and eventual death, but "everlasting to everlasting" (Ps 103:17). Christ being "Everlasting light" (Isa 60:20)

But the Medieval/Reformation/Germanic/Euro concept of God was a superstitious (heathen) concept of token offerings in exchange for mercy. e.g. malnourished peasant farmers, crop failure, polluted German water, low infant mortality, terrified of "the Grim Reaper", Bubonic plague, terrifying gargoyles... God to them was understood/depicted as a cruel almost malignant deity; an angry Zeus/Jupiter/Odin.-- A timely post since this era mirrors our Pandemic Age.

One's spirit is anthropomorphised in Scripture as living and active. The body too, albeit corrupted, dying along with everything else in the world.

On our current state, the Lord said, "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." (Mt 26:41) Likewise in Gal 5:16, "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."

And the future: "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." (Rev 11:15)

"Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. ... and this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6)

i.e. hope is not found in "separation of physical and spiritual" as but in "new creation", of both body and soul, a restoration of divine order as God originally willed for Adam at Eden. Magnified. Growth. Many people, many fruit. Alignment with God's will. "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."[/QUOTE]

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Maybe someone will correct me but "the annihilation of self-will and the absorption of the soul in God" is not "annihilism" or "annihilationism", but about annihilation/eradication/nullification of "self-will".

Hence the author's dichotomy of "physical" vs "spiritual". The phrasing speaks volumes on context and motivation.



Gal 2 is appropriate to quote since Gal 2:16 offers a clue: "...by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed (episteusamen) in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ..."

The verb episteusamen (ἐπιστεύσαμεν) when parsed is aorist active indicative - 1st Person Plural. Which is "active", as opposed to "annihilation of self-will" (inactive). --- But aorist expresses things that happen in general, without asserting a time. "It can describes something that simply is regardless of any time reference (“gnomic”)." (Mounce)

"Used especially of the faith by which a man embraces Jesus, i. e. a conviction, full of joyful trust, that Jesus is the Messiah — the divinely appointed author of eternal salvation in the kingdom of God, conjoined with obedience to Christ: πιστεύω τόν υἱόν τοῦ Θεοῦ εἶναι Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, Acts 8:37 Rec.; ἐπιστεύθη (was believed on (cf. Winers Grammar, § 39, 1 a.; Buttmann, 175 (152))) ἐν κόσμῳ, 1 Timothy 3:16. the phrase πιστεύειν εἰς τόν Ἰησοῦν, εἰς τόν υἱόν τοῦ Θεοῦ, etc., is very common; properly, to have a faith directed unto, believing or in faith to give oneself up to, Jesus, etc. (cf. Winers Grammar, 213 (200f); (Buttmann, 174 (151))):"

Thayers G4100 - pisteuō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

The object of faith/belief being Christ; the completion/manifestation/solidification/realisation of faith/belief; Yeshua being "salvation". He is the end of the "faith" per se, the "omega". Reaching him is the goal the destination of faith. How then can faith possibly be inactive? Perhaps though for a moment only, symbolically/ritually/meditatively/prayerfully in Sabbath "rest". It's both spiritual and physical. Both presently and eternally. Entering into Sabbath rest is metaphorical for entering into Christ's eternal rest. Like a child into a mother's womb, and being "born again" as promised to Nicodemus. Not 9mos and eventual death, but "everlasting to everlasting" (Ps 103:17). Christ being "Everlasting light" (Isa 60:20)

But the Medieval/Reformation/Germanic/Euro concept of God was a superstitious (heathen) concept of token offerings in exchange for mercy. e.g. malnourished peasant farmers, crop failure, polluted German water, low infant mortality, terrified of "the Grim Reaper", Bubonic plague, terrifying gargoyles... God to them was understood/depicted as a cruel almost malignant deity; an angry Zeus/Jupiter/Odin.-- A timely post since this era mirrors our Pandemic Age.

One's spirit is anthropomorphised in Scripture as living and active. The body too, albeit corrupted, dying along with everything else in the world.

On our current state, the Lord said, "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." (Mt 26:41) Likewise in Gal 5:16, "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."

And the future: "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." (Rev 11:15)

"Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. ... and this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6)

i.e. hope is not found in "separation of physical and spiritual" as but in "new creation", of both body and soul, a restoration of divine order as God originally willed for Adam at Eden. Magnified. Growth. Many people, many fruit. Alignment with God's will. "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."

[/QUOTE]

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I took T. G. as teaching that our being, our "I" ought to be done away with, so that we possess no will whatsoever. If not, if we remain distinct from God as creature from Creator, then I have no problem speaking about the will (defined as my wants and my desires) being annihilated and absorbed into God's will. That's the essence of faith. So long as I keep something for myself in contradistinction from my movement toward God, even if that something is good, I have lost God. Luther himself said (I suppose repeating T. G. ) that we should be willing to go to hell if God wants us there. That is radical, true love and faith in the goodness of God. Christ possessed it, in that he took the curse of Adam upon himself.

Maybe someone will correct me but "the annihilation of self-will and the absorption of the soul in God" is not "annihilism" or "annihilationism", but about annihilation/eradication/nullification of "self-will".

Hence the author's dichotomy of "physical" vs "spiritual". The phrasing speaks volumes on context and motivation.



Gal 2 is appropriate to quote since Gal 2:16 offers a clue: "...by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed (episteusamen) in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ..."

The verb episteusamen (ἐπιστεύσαμεν) when parsed is aorist active indicative - 1st Person Plural. Which is "active", as opposed to "annihilation of self-will" (inactive). --- But aorist expresses things that happen in general, without asserting a time. "It can describes something that simply is regardless of any time reference (“gnomic”)." (Mounce)

"Used especially of the faith by which a man embraces Jesus, i. e. a conviction, full of joyful trust, that Jesus is the Messiah — the divinely appointed author of eternal salvation in the kingdom of God, conjoined with obedience to Christ: πιστεύω τόν υἱόν τοῦ Θεοῦ εἶναι Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, Acts 8:37 Rec.; ἐπιστεύθη (was believed on (cf. Winers Grammar, § 39, 1 a.; Buttmann, 175 (152))) ἐν κόσμῳ, 1 Timothy 3:16. the phrase πιστεύειν εἰς τόν Ἰησοῦν, εἰς τόν υἱόν τοῦ Θεοῦ, etc., is very common; properly, to have a faith directed unto, believing or in faith to give oneself up to, Jesus, etc. (cf. Winers Grammar, 213 (200f); (Buttmann, 174 (151))):"

Thayers G4100 - pisteuō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

The object of faith/belief being Christ; the completion/manifestation/solidification/realisation of faith/belief; Yeshua being "salvation". He is the end of the "faith" per se, the "omega". Reaching him is the goal the destination of faith. How then can faith possibly be inactive? Perhaps though for a moment only, symbolically/ritually/meditatively/prayerfully in Sabbath "rest". It's both spiritual and physical. Both presently and eternally. Entering into Sabbath rest is metaphorical for entering into Christ's eternal rest. Like a child into a mother's womb, and being "born again" as promised to Nicodemus. Not 9mos and eventual death, but "everlasting to everlasting" (Ps 103:17). Christ being "Everlasting light" (Isa 60:20)

But the Medieval/Reformation/Germanic/Euro concept of God was a superstitious (heathen) concept of token offerings in exchange for mercy. e.g. malnourished peasant farmers, crop failure, polluted German water, low infant mortality, terrified of "the Grim Reaper", Bubonic plague, terrifying gargoyles... God to them was understood/depicted as a cruel almost malignant deity; an angry Zeus/Jupiter/Odin.-- A timely post since this era mirrors our Pandemic Age.

One's spirit is anthropomorphised in Scripture as living and active. The body too, albeit corrupted, dying along with everything else in the world.

On our current state, the Lord said, "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." (Mt 26:41) Likewise in Gal 5:16, "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."

And the future: "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." (Rev 11:15)

"Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. ... and this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6)

i.e. hope is not found in "separation of physical and spiritual" as but in "new creation", of both body and soul, a restoration of divine order as God originally willed for Adam at Eden. Magnified. Growth. Many people, many fruit. Alignment with God's will. "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."

[/QUOTE]

 

[philadelphos]

I took T. G. as teaching that our being, our "I" ought to be done away with, so that we possess no will whatsoever. If not, if we remain distinct from God as creature from Creator, ...

Right. He quotes and agrees with Saint Dionysius Epistle to Timothy (which is packed with gnosticism, dualism, and platonism. Contrary to the historic Hebrew view as a united practical people under the Mosaic covenant/umbrella.)

For the beholding of the hidden things of God shalt thou forsake since for the things of the flesh and all of the senses can apprehend and all that reason of her own powers can bring forth that all things created an uncreated that reason is able to comprehend and know. And shall take thy stand upon utter abandonment of thyself and of knowing none of the aforesaid things enter into union into him who is an who is above all existence and all knowledge. Now if he did not hold this to be possible at his present time, why did he teach it and enjoin it on us in this present time. But it behooveth you to know that a master has said on this passage of saint dyonisis that it is possible and may happen to a man often that he may be accustom to look into eternity whenever he will. For when a thing is at first very hard for a man and strange and seemingly quite impossible, if he put all his strength and energy into it and persevere therein it will afterward grow quite light and easy which he at first thought quit out of reach…

There's many things wrong with this quote. "Utter abandonment of self" is not the Scriptural view that teaches alignment of self with God, not annihilation of self: "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps." (Pro 16:9)

"Reverent submission" (εὐλάβεια), is an important concept most fail to notice. It's this aspect that links to monasticism/asceticism/mysticism and to catholic or orthodox rigour. e.g. set times for prayer. The Desert Fathers took this the furthest, believing in mysticism, asceticism, that the "world" or "material things" as we'd say are inherently evil. And they struggled with isolation, introspection, self-reflection, fell into delusion, hallucination, and starvation. Hurting their bodies and minds irreparably. Verged into insanity. Having acted on presumption. And the heart being "desperately wicked" (Jer 17:9)

But God's way is "Good News", salvation from enslavement/oppression, a wellspring of life. Scripture and the Hebrew view is living according God's commandments, done with reason not superstitiously. God has already appointed times and a system, in which Christ (and every proto-Christ figure e.g. Adam, Noah, Joseph, David) is central. Grasping God's system (grasping Christ) is knowledge of God. All things make sense from there.

εὐλάβεια: 1) caution, circumspection, discretion, ...avoidance, ...a reasonable shunning. 2) reverence, veneration ...reverence toward God, godly fear". G2124 - eulabeia - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

The argument to become "Godlike" and "Christlike" in mimicking him has a limit. For example, Christ's priestly and prophetic duty was "sent by God" out of love, with his will. It's not self-will or a man-made idea. Acting in accord with God's will is hugely different to "I will annihilate my will in order to be closer to God". It's not one's will but "Thy will be done". "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me." (Jn 6:38)

Christ's alignment of "self will" with "God's will". "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." (Jn 10:18)

"Every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit." (Mt 7:17) The driving force from God and a person's will ("obedience"): "If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (Jn 8:42)

Ability to "keep God's commandments" is proof of spiritual life and growth. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (Jn 14:15) This then is knowledge of God and a practical outworking is evident in how one loves God and their neighbours. "Laying one's life down" for others.

... then I have no problem speaking about the will (defined as my wants and my desires) being annihilated and absorbed into God's will. That's the essence of faith. So long as I keep something for myself in contradistinction from my movement toward God, even if that something is good, I have lost God.

We're likely on the same page re personal application, but to be clear, "God's will" is expressed (written and oral) and enormous. Beyond a narrow personal application. His will is simple enough for a child to understand and yet overwhelming in both a daunting and optimistic/hopeful way. BIBLE VERSES ABOUT WILL OF GOD

About "loss of God" or forfeit of salvation: "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." (Rom 8:28) "And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us." (Rom 5:3-5)

To love God and not to underestimate: "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." (1 Cor 2:9)

Ime, sin brings about an awareness of my limitation, in myself and my environment. The insufficiency of family and institutions. That even though I am "saved", truly I need salvation, a complete and fully realised salvation, that is Christ.

God wants man to participate in his creation and will, in a parental/filial union of Father and son/daughter, less "Creator" and "creation" (which I posted in another thread, maybe deleted by Mods, that "Creator" is an assumed and honorary title/name/pronoun that God himself didn't use when introducing himself in any of the time he introduces himself, albeit his many titles). That is, there's intimacy in his will. He condescends himself to a lowly estate "Walking amongst his people". Expressly saying: "And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people." (Lev 26:12) -- There may be a nuanced debate about created vs pro-created beings but the point remains... Active involvement/participation. Human independence, will-power.

"And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man ... And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof." (Gen 2:15-16, 19)

Luther himself said (I suppose repeating T. G. ) that we should be willing to go to hell if God wants us there. That is radical, true love and faith in the goodness of God. Christ possessed it, in that he took the curse of Adam upon himself.

Except he doesn't. Important to discern. -- Double-predestination and predestined reprobation aside. God loves all his creation, yet simultaneously is perfect justice. "For the LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him." (Isa 30:18) Patience implying the sin of "presumption": "Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me" (Ps 19:13) An ongoing theme in Scripture, where the impatient/presumptuous group ends up dead, miserable, or in urgent need of repentance.

TG has some interesting quotes (I'll listen to more later), but there's a lot going on there that's extra-biblical. More along the lines of commentary or philosophy than Scripture. And much of it echoes debates surrounding European/Germanic existentialism. TG being a precursor to that era: Germanic theology, Germanic/Euro existentialism. Ime is a supposed high theology eclipses elementary concepts already laid out in Scripture, and so is altogether contrary to Scripture and the will of God.

According to Existentialism: (1) Existence is always particular and individual-- always my existence, your existence, his existence. (Kierkegaard)

Standford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

Now a person whose sense of doing God’s will is what gives her life meaning will be intelligible just to the extent that her action conforms to the universal dictates of ethics. But what if, as in case of Abraham’s sacrifice of his son, the action contradicts what ethics demands? Kierkegaard[5] believes both that Abraham’s life is supremely meaningful (it is not simply a matter of some immediate desire or meaningless tic that overcomes Abraham’s ethical consciousness; on the contrary, doing the moral thing is itself in this case his tempting inclination) and that philosophy cannot understand it, thus condemning it in the name of ethics. God’s command here cannot be seen as a law that would pertain to all; it addresses Abraham in his singularity. If Abraham’s life is meaningful, it represents, from a philosophical point of view, the “paradox” that through faith the “single individual is higher than the universal.” Existence as a philosophical problem appears at this point: if there is a dimension to my being that is both meaningful and yet not governed by the rational standard of morality, by what standard is it governed? For unless there is some standard, it is idle to speak of “meaning.”

Existentialism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

IEP:

Anxiety and Authenticity: ...Many existentialists tended to stress the significance of emotions or feelings, in so far as they were presumed to have a less culturally or intellectually mediated relation to one’s individual and separate existence. This idea is found in Kierkegaard, as we mentioned above, and in Heidegger’s discussion of ‘mood’; it is also one reason why existentialism had an influence on psychology. ...Related to anxiety is the concept of authenticity, which is let us say the existentialist spin on the Greek notion of ‘the good life’ ...sometimes seen as connected to individualism. ...if authenticity involves ‘being on one’s own’, then there would seem to be some kind of value in celebrating and sustaining one’s difference and independence from others.

Existentialism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

Again, I refer back to my parsing of Galatians 2:16, that "we have believed" episteusamen (ἐπιστεύσαμεν) is in 1st Person Plural. So while it's true we're "individuals" we're not "separated" from the God as creator, not at all. Instead we're within a collective "flock", under Christ the Good Shepherd (John 10:11-18). Under grace.

 

[philadelphos]

When he (Christ) says you must take up your cross and follow me he's talking about an inner change... There is a famous painting by Dali of Christ floating in the air, separate from the world. This heretical thinking. The cross must be grounded, based, planted in the earth, based and planted in our lives, for real, on a day to day basis, a living experience in our lives...

Thanks again for sharing. This was encouraging. Refreshingly abstract, open minded, insightful. A needed reminder "not as I will, but as thou wilt."

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross (stauros, σταυρός) daily, and follow me." (Luke 9:23)

The stauros (σταυρός) is actually a "stake" or "tree". Metaphorically the "tree of life". Relating to symbolism/imagery in the Menorah candlestick, grape vine, olive tree: "I am the true vine ... ye are the branches" (Jn 15:1, 5) "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree ...that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." (Rom 11:17, 25) "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree." (Acts 5:30) "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:" (Gal 3:13) "And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:" (Deu 21:22)

Which relates to the (cattle) "yoke" of God's commandments. "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me" (Mt 11:29; see also Acts 15:10, Gal 5:1) -- Christ being the Torah incarnate, the living word of God, and the branches are both "Jew and Greek (Gentil)", a united entity, an international body, under God's law. Shalom or Salem (Greek): "peace in the world" (Jn 16:33) As in "Jeru-salem". i.e. "Thy Kingdom".

= "possession of peace" or "of Salem";

"foundation of peace" or "of Shalem [God of peace]"
JERUSALEM - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Thus, it's both internal and external. An outworking must take place that stems from inner change, from spiritual/theoretical to practice. An outworking of agape/charity/unconditional love. In family, community, friendship, ecclessia, business relationships. All forms of neighbourliness. And in doing so, reflects God. ---This is the challenge, since most of us are rather wretched and depraved.

"Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth." (Jn 3:16-18)

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (Jn 15:13)

"What man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" (Matthew 7)

It's this area that monastics/ascetics/mystics usually fall short, in remote reclusive places etc. See the Desert Fathers. i.e. the "self denial", self-sacrifice, self-control, etc, has an object. A recipient or beneficiary.

For the individual, fully realised when Christ returns, this will be a complete unification of spirit, soul (ψυχή, psychē), and body:

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul (ψυχή, psychē) and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thes 5:23)

Pysche ranges from "the breath of life; the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing" to the "soul, the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our soul, heart, etc." Which is the part you noted. G5590 - psychē - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

The Book of Proverbs says to us "Change the wicked and they will be no more" (1:25)

Misquote.

Scripture says, "
The wicked are overthrown, and are not: but the house of the righteous shall stand." (Pro 12:7)

And,

"Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." (Dan 12:10)

... but that the old man within us will die and the new man will live (1:43)

This is true. "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)

... it is no longer I who live but Christ in me (1:49)

Misquote. He's exploiting the English nuance/semantics. Scripture does kinda say that, but not the way he's suggesting. Especially the "I live by the faith" part is an active statement, but this time at the individual level.

"I am crucified (συσταυρόω, systauroō) with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I (οὐκέτι ἐγώ, ouketi ego), but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live (ζῶ, zo) by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Gal 2:20)

ζῶ, zo is Present Active Indicative - 1st Person Singular.

It's also a reference to stauron and the "seed of the Gospel" taking root in one's life. "The seed is the word of God" (Lk 18:11) To live by faith, on the foundation of God's word, on Christ the solid rock.

Just prior to that Paul says "For I through the law (διὰ νόμου, dia nomou) am dead to the law, that I might live unto God." (v19) Where nomos (νόμοs) is "Torah" or the Pentateuch, the first five books of Moses.--- Which ofc covers the origin of sin and the definition of sin in great detail, through God's perspective, in his words. Thus the will of God.

Have you read Owen on Mortification of Sin? It's a nugget.

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/owen/Mortification of Sin - John Owen.pdf