The Spirit's Power and Basic Christian Experience

[Berserk]

1. (1) In Luke-Acts, Luke never thinks in terms of an initial regenerating work of the Holy Spirit followed by Spirit baptism. This difference from Paul's pneumatology makes Paul's question to the Ephesian disciples particularly significant: "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you first believed (Acts 19:2)?" Paul is clearly asking them whether they had the experience of initially receiving the Spirit. And what kind of experience does Paul have in mind? Well, when Paul lays hands on them, they finally do receive the Spirit in power by speaking in tongues and prophesying (19:6). Their initial experience is significant for 2 reasons: (a) In ancient rabbinic Judaism the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of prophecy, and so, ecstatic speech validates the claim to have received the Spirit. (b) In 3 of the 4 descriptions of initial reception of the Spirit, people evidence this by speaking in tongues and in the 4th case some such experience of ecstatic speech seems implied by Simon the Magician's offer of money to Peter in exchange for the ability to convey this experience of power. Note the connection between ecstasy and initial receptions of the Holy Spirit. (2) Paul's contrast between drunkenness and Spirit infilling implies that the experience of the Spirit involves ecstasy: "Be not drunk with wine..., but be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18)." Indeed, when seekers are filled with the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, the public perceives them as intoxicated with wine (Acts 2:13). Here is the central point I'm raising for discussion: receiving the Holy Spirit can never be reduced to a matter of faith because it must be an experience of divine power: "I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I will find out not the [God-] talk of these arrogant people, but their power. For the kingdom of God depends not on [God-] talk, but on power (1 Cor. 4:19-20)." (3) And notice Paul's aversion to Christians who the consequences for Paul of reduce possession of the Spirit to a mere act of faith or godliness: "...in the last days distressing times will come. People will be...holding to the outward form of godliness, BUT DENYING ITS POWER. AVOID THEM (2 Tim. 3:1-2, 5)." (4) Thus, initial reception of the Spirit upon hearing the Gospel must be an experience of supernatural power; "My speech and my proclamation were not with plausible words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on the power of God (1 Cor. 2:5-6)." Given the glossolalic excesses at Corinth and the pattern of tongues marking the initial reception of the Spirit in Acts, it is plausible to assume that speaking in tongues was one form taken by this "demonstration of the Spirit and of power" at Corinth. (5) Again in Rom.15:18 Paul focuses exclusively on what happens when he preaches the Gospel: "I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to win obedience from the Gentiles, by word and deed, BY THE POWER OF SIGNS AND WONDERS, BY THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD." (6) But how does Paul react when believers whose initial reception of the Spirit eventually gets reduced to a merely cerebral matter of faith? "Are you so foolish? Having started with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? Did you EXPERIENCE so much for nothing (Gal. 3:3-4)." The initial Galatian experience of the Spirit included miracles like the gifts of the Spirit: "Well then, does God supply you with the Spirit AND WORK MIRACLES AMONG YOU by your doing the works of the Law or by your believing what you heard (3:5)?" The fact that the Galatians are being harassed by Christian Judaizers is irrelevant my central point. My next planned post will discuss the relevance of Paul's concepts of walking in the Spirit, being led by the Spirit, and praying in the Spirit to the essential role of spiritual experience in claiming to have received the Holy Spirit.

 

[Carl Emerson]

1. (1) In Luke-Acts, Luke never thinks in terms of an initial regenerating work of the Holy Spirit followed by Spirit baptism. This difference from Paul's pneumatology makes Paul's question to the Ephesian disciples particularly significant: "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you first believed (Acts 19:2)?" Paul is clearly asking them whether they had the experience of initially receiving the Spirit. And what kind of experience does Paul have in mind? Well, when Paul lays hands on them, they finally do receive the Spirit in power by speaking in tongues and prophesying (19:6). Their initial experience is significant for 2 reasons: (a) In ancient rabbinic Judaism the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of prophecy, and so, ecstatic speech validates the claim to have received the Spirit. (b) In 3 of the 4 descriptions of initial reception of the Spirit, people evidence this by speaking in tongues and in the 4th case some such experience of ecstatic speech seems implied by Simon the Magician's offer of money to Peter in exchange for the ability to convey this experience of power. Note the connection between ecstasy and initial receptions of the Holy Spirit. (2) Paul's contrast between drunkenness and Spirit infilling implies that the experience of the Spirit involves ecstasyl"Be not drunk with wine..., but be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18)." Indeed, when seekers are filled with the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, the public perceives them as intoxicated with wine (Acts 2:13). Here is the central point I'm raising for discussion: receiving the Holy Spirit can never be reduced to a matter of faith because it must be an experience of divine power: "I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I will find out not the [God-] talk of these arrogant people, but their power. For the kingdom of God depends not on [God-] talk, but on power (1 Cor. 4:19-20)." (3) And notice Paul's aversion to Christians who the consequences for Paul of reduce possession of the Spirit to a mere act of faith or godliness: "...in the last days distressing times will come. People will be...holding to the outward for of godliness, BUT DENYING ITS POWER. AVOID THEM (2 Tim. 3:1-2, 5)." (4) Thus, initial reception of the Spirit upon hearing the Gospel must be an experience of supernatural power; "My speech and my proclamation were not with plausible words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on the power of God (1 Cor. 2:5-6). Given the glossolalic excesses at Corinth and the pattern of tongues marking the initial reception of the Spirit in Acts, it is plausible to assume that speaking in tongues was one form taken by this "demonstration of the Spirit and of power" at Corinth. (5) Again in Rom.15:18 Paul focuses exclusively on what happens when he preaches the Gospel: "I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to win obedience from the Gentiles, by word and deed, BY THE POWER OF SIGNS AND WONDERS, BY THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD." (6) But how does Paul react when believers whose initial reception of the Spirit eventually gets reduced to a merely cerebral matter of faith? "Are you so foolish? Having started with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? Did you EXPERIENCE so much for nothing (Gal. 3:3-4)"The initial Galatian experience of the Spirit included miracles like the gifts of the Spirit: "Well then, does God supply you with the Spirit AND WORK MIRACLES AMONG YOU by your doing the works of the Law or by your believing what you heard (3:5)?" The fact that the Galatians are being harrassed by Christian Judaizers is irrelevant my central point. My next planned post will discuss the relevance of Paul's concepts of walking in the Spirit, being led by the Spirit, and praying in the Spirit to the essential role of spiritual experience in claiming to have received the Holy Spirit.

How does your thesis relate to being born again?

 

[Berserk]

How does your thesis relate to being born again?

"The wind blows where it chooses AND YOU HEAR THE SOUND OF IT, but nobody knows where it comes from and where it goes. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit (John 3:8)."

When we are born again, we are born of the Spirit and, like the wind whose sound we hear, being born of the Spirit is an experience of power. At the same time, like the wind, where the Spirit "goes" in our experience is a mystery. So it is presumptuous, even dangerous, to try to specify how the assurance of being born of the Spirit should be experienced. But the experiential element remains crucial, if vague, and that's the problem raised by my thread.

A few years ago, I read a survey of evangelical mega-church pastors. On average these pastors estimated that 1/3 of their regular attenders were not born again. I thought, if true, seeker sensitive preaching seems inadequate to confront this grave issue. Yet the Spirit is sovereign and doesn't jump just because we crack our whip. So given the essential role of an experience of transforming power, how can we avoid the temptation to either glibly offer someone reassurance of their salvation or be needlessly cautious or alarmist?

 

[Carl Emerson]

"The wind blows where it chooses AND YOU HEAR THE SOUND OF IT, but nobody knows where it comes from and where it goes. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit (John 3:8)."

When we are born again, we are born of the Spirit and, like the wind whose sound we hear, being born of the Spirit is an experience of power. At the same time, like the wind, where the Spirit "goes" in our experience is a mystery. So it is presumptuous, even dangerous, to try to specify how the assurance of being born of the Spirit should be experienced. But the experiential element remains crucial, if vague, and that's the problem raised by my thread.

A few years ago, I read a survey of evangelical mega-church pastors. On average these pastors estimated that 1/3 of their regular attenders were not born again. I thought, if true, seeker sensitive preaching seems inadequate to confront this grave issue. Yet the Spirit is sovereign and doesn't jump just because we crack our whip. So given the essential role of an experience of transforming power, how can we avoid the temptation to either glibly offer someone reassurance of their salvation or be needlessly cautious or alarmist?

Appreciate your reply.

Can you explain how the disciples received the Spirit when Jesus breathed on them before they were empowered by the Spirit at Pentecost ?

 

[Berserk]

Good question, but Jesus' exhale is a type of "wind," isn't it? We weren't there to sense whether His exhale was heard, felt, or merely seen. So the expectation patterns in Acts and Paul seem more relevant. Believers often claim to experience an intimate personal relationship with Christ. To what extend is their claim merely a belief without the power of the Spirit?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Good question...

Well salvation comes from faith - and Paul came across believers that didn't even know there was a Holy Spirit.

So it seems the transition to adoption as sons and daughters can precede the empowering.

 

[JAL]

1. (1) In Luke-Acts, Luke never thinks in terms of an initial regenerating work of the Holy Spirit followed by Spirit baptism. This difference from Paul's pneumatology makes Paul's question to the Ephesian disciples particularly significant: "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you first believed (Acts 19:2)?" Paul is clearly asking them whether they had the experience of initially receiving the Spirit. And what kind of experience does Paul have in mind? Well, when Paul lays hands on them, they finally do receive the Spirit in power by speaking in tongues and prophesying (19:6). Their initial experience is significant for 2 reasons: (a) In ancient rabbinic Judaism the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of prophecy, and so, ecstatic speech validates the claim to have received the Spirit. (b) In 3 of the 4 descriptions of initial reception of the Spirit, people evidence this by speaking in tongues and in the 4th case some such experience of ecstatic speech seems implied by Simon the Magician's offer of money to Peter in exchange for the ability to convey this experience of power. Note the connection between ecstasy and initial receptions of the Holy Spirit. (2) Paul's contrast between drunkenness and Spirit infilling implies that the experience of the Spirit involves ecstasyl"Be not drunk with wine..., but be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18)." Indeed, when seekers are filled with the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, the public perceives them as intoxicated with wine (Acts 2:13). Here is the central point I'm raising for discussion: receiving the Holy Spirit can never be reduced to a matter of faith because it must be an experience of divine power: "I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I will find out not the [God-] talk of these arrogant people, but their power. For the kingdom of God depends not on [God-] talk, but on power (1 Cor. 4:19-20)." (3) And notice Paul's aversion to Christians who the consequences for Paul of reduce possession of the Spirit to a mere act of faith or godliness: "...in the last days distressing times will come. People will be...holding to the outward for of godliness, BUT DENYING ITS POWER. AVOID THEM (2 Tim. 3:1-2, 5)." (4) Thus, initial reception of the Spirit upon hearing the Gospel must be an experience of supernatural power; "My speech and my proclamation were not with plausible words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on the power of God (1 Cor. 2:5-6). Given the glossolalic excesses at Corinth and the pattern of tongues marking the initial reception of the Spirit in Acts, it is plausible to assume that speaking in tongues was one form taken by this "demonstration of the Spirit and of power" at Corinth. (5) Again in Rom.15:18 Paul focuses exclusively on what happens when he preaches the Gospel: "I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to win obedience from the Gentiles, by word and deed, BY THE POWER OF SIGNS AND WONDERS, BY THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD." (6) But how does Paul react when believers whose initial reception of the Spirit eventually gets reduced to a merely cerebral matter of faith? "Are you so foolish? Having started with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? Did you EXPERIENCE so much for nothing (Gal. 3:3-4)"The initial Galatian experience of the Spirit included miracles like the gifts of the Spirit: "Well then, does God supply you with the Spirit AND WORK MIRACLES AMONG YOU by your doing the works of the Law or by your believing what you heard (3:5)?" The fact that the Galatians are being harrassed by Christian Judaizers is irrelevant my central point. My next planned post will discuss the relevance of Paul's concepts of walking in the Spirit, being led by the Spirit, and praying in the Spirit to the essential role of spiritual experience in claiming to have received the Holy Spirit.

In general I like your strongly charismatic emphasis because I too am a continuationist. But I think that the Spirit is usually received in the sense of regeneration without any charismatic power:

"And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the deadf will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you" (Romans 8).

Are you saying that people who have no charismatic/prophetic experience are not even Christians? Even the disciples were Christian believers before Pentecost, and before any charismatic power.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

1. (1) In Luke-Acts, Luke never thinks in terms of an initial regenerating work of the Holy Spirit followed by Spirit baptism. This difference from Paul's pneumatology makes Paul's question to the Ephesian disciples particularly significant: "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you first believed (Acts 19:2)?" Paul is clearly asking them whether they had the experience of initially receiving the Spirit. And what kind of experience does Paul have in mind? Well, when Paul lays hands on them, they finally do receive the Spirit in power by speaking in tongues and prophesying (19:6). Their initial experience is significant for 2 reasons: (a) In ancient rabbinic Judaism the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of prophecy, and so, ecstatic speech validates the claim to have received the Spirit. (b) In 3 of the 4 descriptions of initial reception of the Spirit, people evidence this by speaking in tongues and in the 4th case some such experience of ecstatic speech seems implied by Simon the Magician's offer of money to Peter in exchange for the ability to convey this experience of power. Note the connection between ecstasy and initial receptions of the Holy Spirit. (2) Paul's contrast between drunkenness and Spirit infilling implies that the experience of the Spirit involves ecstasyl"Be not drunk with wine..., but be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18)." Indeed, when seekers are filled with the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, the public perceives them as intoxicated with wine (Acts 2:13). Here is the central point I'm raising for discussion: receiving the Holy Spirit can never be reduced to a matter of faith because it must be an experience of divine power: "I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I will find out not the [God-] talk of these arrogant people, but their power. For the kingdom of God depends not on [God-] talk, but on power (1 Cor. 4:19-20)." (3) And notice Paul's aversion to Christians who the consequences for Paul of reduce possession of the Spirit to a mere act of faith or godliness: "...in the last days distressing times will come. People will be...holding to the outward for of godliness, BUT DENYING ITS POWER. AVOID THEM (2 Tim. 3:1-2, 5)." (4) Thus, initial reception of the Spirit upon hearing the Gospel must be an experience of supernatural power; "My speech and my proclamation were not with plausible words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on the power of God (1 Cor. 2:5-6). Given the glossolalic excesses at Corinth and the pattern of tongues marking the initial reception of the Spirit in Acts, it is plausible to assume that speaking in tongues was one form taken by this "demonstration of the Spirit and of power" at Corinth. (5) Again in Rom.15:18 Paul focuses exclusively on what happens when he preaches the Gospel: "I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to win obedience from the Gentiles, by word and deed, BY THE POWER OF SIGNS AND WONDERS, BY THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD." (6) But how does Paul react when believers whose initial reception of the Spirit eventually gets reduced to a merely cerebral matter of faith? "Are you so foolish? Having started with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? Did you EXPERIENCE so much for nothing (Gal. 3:3-4)"The initial Galatian experience of the Spirit included miracles like the gifts of the Spirit: "Well then, does God supply you with the Spirit AND WORK MIRACLES AMONG YOU by your doing the works of the Law or by your believing what you heard (3:5)?" The fact that the Galatians are being harrassed by Christian Judaizers is irrelevant my central point. My next planned post will discuss the relevance of Paul's concepts of walking in the Spirit, being led by the Spirit, and praying in the Spirit to the essential role of spiritual experience in claiming to have received the Holy Spirit.

So I gather from reading your post that speaking in tongues is the evidence of recieving His Holy Spirit? We know that no Holy Spirit is no regeneration thus no salvation. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Berserk]

Good question...

Well salvation comes from faith - and Paul came across believers that didn't even know there was a Holy Spirit. So it seems the transition to adoption as sons and daughters can precede the empowering.

The NT pattern is repentance, baptism and profession of faith, and reception of the Holy Spirit. What is unclear is the timing of the experience of the regenerating work of the Spirit: "No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me (John 6:44)." Consider the testimony of C. S. Lewis's conversion from atheism in his biographical book "Surprised by Joy." He had been asking himself spiritual questions and, one day while riding a bus, he was made to feel like a lobster locked in his shell and felt he was being asked the insistent question, "When will you unlock you shell?" Later, he was being driven to Whipsnade Zoo and reports, "When I began the journey I didn't believe Jesus was the Son of God, but when I arrived at the zoo I did. Yet I hadn't been consciously thinking about Jesus during the ride." Then Lewis was "surprised by joy" from the Holy Spirit.

Mary Billingsley: "So I gather from reading your post that speaking in tongues is the evidence of receiving His Holy Spirit? We know that no Holy Spirit is no regeneration thus no salvation."

In early apostolic times this was often the case because many of the first converts were Jews, proselytes, and "god-fearers" who attended local synagogues and their rabbis believed that Holy Spirit is the Spirit of prophecy; and so, these converts expected ecstatic speech before they felt comfortable claiming to have received the Spirit. But Paul expanded the doctrine of the Holy Spirit to include a broader range of experiencing divine power than just speaking in tongues. So speaking in tongues was no longer essential as evidence of one's initial reception of the Spirit.

 

[Hidden In Him]

1. (1) In Luke-Acts, Luke never thinks in terms of an initial regenerating work of the Holy Spirit followed by Spirit baptism.

Do you delineate between being born of the Spirit and being Baptized in the Spirit? How do you reconcile believers having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the living and abiding word of God? (1 Peter 1:23)

 

[Carl Emerson]

I appreciate on this thread the intellectual humility that leaves room for the unfathomable ways of God.

He moves as He wills and the Scripture is not an account of everything He does in lives in detail.

There is some justification for viewing the season of the birth of the Church as unique in the way He chose to manifest the gifts, but this can go too far and be presented as a cover to justify lack of evidence of His power among us today.

Theology is often shaped by individual experience or human loyalty to a presiding teacher or tradition. Rarely do we see fresh inspiration unfolding the Mysteries of the Word, Yet that was a normative expectation among believers according to John.

Sadly we can become so tied up with the unanswered questions scripture presents that the seed that is in our hand does not find the hungry around us. We fall into the trap of Eden - seeking knowledge for knowledge sake and missing the mission to bringing Him to the needy.

This is a late hour and we need to evidence His unfathomable power to the world with the aim of calling home those who are His.

 

[Brad D.]

I appreciate on this thread the intellectual humility that leaves room for the unfathomable ways of God.

He moves as He wills and the Scripture is not an account of everything He does in lives in detail.

There is some justification for viewing the season of the birth of the Church as unique in the way He chose to manifest the gifts, but this can go too far and be presented as a cover to justify lack of evidence of His power among us today.

Theology is often shaped by individual experience or human loyalty to a presiding teacher or tradition. Rarely do we see fresh inspiration unfolding the Mysteries of the Word, Yet that was a normative expectation among believers according to John.

Sadly we can become so tied up with the unanswered questions scripture presents that the seed that is in our hand does not find the hungry around us. We fall into the trap of Eden - seeking knowledge for knowledge sake and missing the mission to bringing Him to the needy.

This is a late hour and we need to evidence His unfathomable power to the world with the aim of calling home those who are His.

Agree completely! The Transformative Power of Christ is alive and well if only if we are willing to go down into the ground and die that He may build us anew! The Cross is the real power of God, but people seek after everything except the one and only thing that can conform us day by day into the image of Christ. There is no greater manifestation of His power on earth than that. It brings us onward to who He really is, What He is really after, and what He suffered so. For His sake, I pray many in this day will not only come to the cross, but be willing to walk through it and ever onward.

 

[Trusting in Him]

This is all very theoretical and intelectural, but what does it have to do with reality? When I first accepted the Lord and commited by life to Him, I never understood what had happened and it took a long time to realise that things which I could not understand, or even begin to explain had changed me and I did not have any idea of how this was happening.

All this happened to me at a Billy Graham crusade in 1989, the following day I went to work as usual and all the people that I worked with started asking me what had happened to me. I was not aware that anything had happened to me and I told them that nothing had happened to me. At the weekend, I went out with all my friends, as usual down to our favourite pub.

I and my friends had always been the life and the soul of everything that went on at this pub. This was like our home, but this time I did not feel like I belonged there anymore and I found the whole experience very confusing. As time went by I lost many of my friends and my life gradually took on different directions.

I slowly began to realise that from the day that I had given my life to the Lord, I have changed from someone who used to swear and use bad languish without even thinking about it to someone who had ceased from swearing, or using bad languish at all and at the time, I never know anything about it whatsoever. Believe me you know it is God, when you can't explain it and it has happened to you.

Eventually there is nothing to do, but to believe, surrender to Him and trust Him and His will for your life. It is natural to fear dying, but when you trust in Him, becomes so strong that you no longer fear death that's when God really becomes so real to you and you stop asking questions, but just trust and believe!

This is not something intelectural, but trusting Him so that you can live the life you were always intended too! Is it joyful? Oh yes, but it very simple and you cease to be trying to impress others anymore. None of that matters anymore! All of that is now gone! Trying to fit end time prophecies into nice neat timelines and charts has no meaning, it's only about one day at a time with Him and those who you love! Praise His name!

 

[Brad D.]

This is all very theoretical and intelectural, but what does it have to do with reality? When I first accepted the Lord and commited by life to Him, I never understood what had happened and it took a long time to realise that things which I could not understand, or even begin to explain had changed me and I did not have any idea of how this was happening.

All this happened to me at a Billy Graham crusade in 1989, the following day I went to work as usually and all the people that I worked with started asking me what had happened to me. I was not aware that anything had happened to me and I told them that nothing had happened to me. At the weekend, I went out with all my friends, as usually down to our favourite pub.

I and my friends had always been the life and the soul of everything that went on at this pub. This was like our home, but this time I did not feel like I belonged there anymore and I found the whole experience very confusing. As time when by I lost many of my friends my life gradually took on different directions.

I slowly began to realise that from the day that I had given my life to the Lord, I have changed from someone who used to swear and use bad languish without even thinking about it to someone who had ceased from swearing, or using bad languish at all and at the time, I never know anything about it whatsoever. Believe me you know it is God, when you can't explain it and it has happened to you.

Eventually there is nothing to do, but to believe, surrender to Him and trust Him and His will for your life. It is naturally to fear dying, but when you trust in Him, becomes so strong that you no longer fear death that's when God really becomes so real to you and you stop asking questions, but just trust and believe!

This is not something intelectural, but trusting Him so that you can live the life you were always intended too! Is it joyful? Oh yes, but it very simple and you cease to be trying to impress others anymore. None of that matters anymore! All of that is now gone! Trying to fit end time prophecies into nice neat timelines and charts has no meaning, it's only about one day at a time with Him and those who you love! Praise His name!

That was beautiful thanks so much for sharing your testimony! How do we really explain God in the End. The Shortest and most profound sermon in the Bible was. I am who I am ( Exodus 3:14)

 

[Carl Emerson]

This is all very theoretical and intelectural, but what does it have to do with reality?

You can read my testimony here...
Jesus's Ministry

I speak from a life that was shipwrecked and He gave me a second chance.

 

[Trusting in Him]

If most of you knew me, you would not think that I was anything special. I don't know if this is true of anyone else, but the more I tried the worse things got. Sometimes God has to bring us to weakness, so that we will stop trying. One heart attack and two strokes later, I only have one good arm and one good leg and most of the things which I used to take for granted, I really struggle to do at all now.

Then I made a concsious decision to trust everything to Him and I found that it was not about trying, but all about trusting in Him each and every day! Praise His name!

 

[Berserk]

Hidden In Him: "Do you delineate between being born of the Spirit and being Baptized in the Spirit?"

Classic Pentecostal theology teaches that Spirit baptism in Acts must be a 2nd work of grace, given that the disciples have already received the Holy Spirit (John 20:22-23). But most of the seekers who are Spirit-baptized on the Day of Pentecost were not present then and for Luke the outpourings of the Spirit in Cornelius' household (Acts 1:44-47)) and on the Ephesian "disciples (19:2, 6)" are initial experiences of receiving the Holy Spirit. Similarly, contrary to mainline Pentecostal teaching, Spirit baptism for Paul incorporates believers into the Body of Christ and therefore does not refer to a 2nd work of grace: "For in the one Spirit WE WERE ALL BAPTIZED into one Body...and were all made to drink of one Spirit (1 Cor. 13:12)." The image of drinking in the Spirt is the language of mystical experience. I will return to this point in a future post.

Hidden in Him: "How do you reconcile believers having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the living and abiding word of God? (1 Peter 1:23)"

Jesus creates the impression that the new birth is like a once-for-all occurrence: "So it [like the wind whose origin and movement is mysterious] is with everyone who is born of the Spirit (John 3:8)." But Peter's seed analogy conceives of salvation as a growth process: "You have been born anew, not of perishable seed but of imperishable seed through the living and abiding Word of God (1 Peter 1:23)." The growing seed is replaced in 2:2 by the image of newborn babies who must "grow into salvation:" "Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, so that by it YOU MAY GROW INTO SALVATION--if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good (2:2)." Of course both Jesus' and Peter's statements sare true in their own way because, though we are saved by faith, the Greek ("pistis") and its Hebrew equivalent ("amunah") both mean "faithfulness" as well as "faith." Notice, too, that the new birth must be "tasted," i. e. experienced.

True, the contexts of 1 Peter 1:23 and 2:2 make no mention of experiencing (tasting) the Holy Spirit. But Peter has already stressed the Spirit's role in this process: "by sanctification of the Spirit for obedience (1:3)." Indeed, the Spirit's role is implicit in the expression "the living and abiding Word of God." The words of "the Truth" (1:22--the Gospel) aren't living and abiding apart from their application to our lives by the Spirit.

 

[Berserk]

I will now transition to other basic ways of experiencing the Spirit in daily life--praying in the Spirit, walking in the Spirit, and being led by the Spirit. This post deals with praying in the Spirit.

Praying in the Spirit differs from ordinary prayer in that it is Spirit-directed. Because the prayer warrior is not controlling or planning what is being said, learning to pray in the Spirit in one's own language can help the believer spontaneously speak in authentic tongues, but that is a subject for the Sign Gift forum; so I won't discuss it here. The point to be made here is that Paul climaxes his list of armor pieces for spiritual warfare in Eph. 6:11-17 with the key to effectively waging that warfare:

"Pray in the Spirit at all times and in every prayer and supplication. To that end KEEP ALERT AND ALWAYS PERSEVERE IN SUPPLICATION FOR ALL THE SAINTS (Eph. 6:18)."

The prayers of many believers are often uttered with a rather cluttered awareness that drifts in and out of daydreams and wandering thoughts and bogs us down in mechanical cliched prayers. But praying in the Spirit helps us "keep alert and always persevere" in the manner that any Christian soldier engaged in spiritual battle should do. One's awareness that the Spirit is directing one's prayer fills one with faith because one recognizes that the Spirit knows better than we do what to pray for and the Spirit is more powerful than the efforts of our contrived prayers.

In ordinary prayer, when our words begin to seem contrived, mechanical, superficial, and cliched,
it is important to intensify our longing for more of God--a deeper connection:

"When you search for me, you will find me when you seek me with all your heart (i.e. with the purest, most intense longing you are capable of--Jer. 29:13)."

As you intensify your longing and feel the inadequacy of your words, the Spirit can gradually impart His intentions and purposes to your prayer even through your inarticulate groaning until the spontaneous flow of praise, thanksgiving, and petitions can take over as the Spirit prays through you:

"We do not know how to pray as we ought, but that very Spirit intercedes with groans too deep for words...the spirit intercedes with the Lord according to the will of God (Rom. 8:26-27)."

Here is how I stumbled into praying in the Spirit. The church of my youth hosted both a Sunday morning and a Sunday evening evangelistic service. Hungry for God, yet plagued by doubts, I (about age 18) decided to stay after the morning service and fast and pray in the church steeple all day before the evening service. I almost quit after 45 minutes on my knees. My knees were sore and my prayer seemed labored and too repetitive, as I was running out of petitions and new ways to praise and thank God. If I had quit, I might have become an agnostic. All I had left was an intense hunger for more of God. Then I was suddenly enveloped by the sweetness of the Spirit's presence and the prayers just flowed effortlessly and spontaneously from my mouth, directed by the Spirit for hours. I had just discovered the price I must pray to learn to pray in the Spirit. That evening, the altar was lined with an unusually high number of seekers coming forward for salvation. I went through the same process some time later with the same awesome results.

It is therapeutic for me to write this because it reminds me that I rarely lack the willingness to spend the necessary time in waiting on God to reach the glorious state of praying in the Spirit.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I believe the trick is to cultivate a continuing prayer relationship with Him throughout the day - Prayer naturally pours out of you as a function of a nurtured relationship.

I am blessed with a splendid home environment very conducive to prayer and praise.

This is not because we are wealthy, but He arranges our accomodation as we walk through life by faith.

So today I attended Church and was asked to bring the "peoples prayer" in an Anglican liturgical setting. I walk up to the pulpit with no prior preparation and the prayer flows out of me, at times to the point of tears.

Traditionally folks compose prayers before hand and present in a methodical way.

I hope my response is helpful - I seek to compliment what you are presenting and don't intend to divert your thread.

 

[Berserk]

Since my college days and later as a pastor, I was often responsible for pastoral prayers. Many--but by no means all--just flowed spontaneously from my mouth with no preparation or thought. So I guess much of that was praying in the Spirit. But I once learned an important lesson. A pretty young woman complemented me on my prayer eloquence and I felt encouraged until I suddenly realized through her praise that I unconsciously sometimes wanted to impress with my praying! Ego can subtly prevent public prayer from qualifying as prayer in the Spirit. Some pastoral prayers feel like passionate poetic compositions unwittingly addressed more to the congregation than to God! I used to dislike our monthly pastors' prayer group because some pastors would unwittingly preach sermons to the other pastors disguised as prayer! Such prayer often began with "Lord, you know that..." followed by exhortations unconsciusly directed at the rest of us expressing insights we supposedly needed to hear.