The 2 witnesses in Revelation

[Ryan L]

So what you are saying is that angels can possess human bodies and become mortal... I know in Satanic cults where the idea of procreating with humans gives way to sexual activities we would frown upon.. all in their efforts to gain the human body while keeping their angelic [??] powers. I never thought of good angels doing the same thing in order to have human bodies.. [Lord doesn't like the mixing of seed]

Did God not become flesh and die?

I am in no way suggesting angels mated with humans like teachings I have heard on the Nephillim. Don't even want to touch that topic. But scripture is clear angels can take on human form. Whether that makes them human or not, is left up for debate.

 

[visionary]

Satan can not "come in the flesh.. " but he can appear like he does.. every wonder why the deceiver is going to preach on this point..

2 John 1:7 I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

 

[Ryan L]

Satan can not "come in the flesh.. " but he can appear like he does.. every wonder why the deceiver is going to preach on this point..

Could it be because he will declare himself as god through many signs and wonders?

2 Thessalonians 2:9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,

 

[visionary]

It is one thing for angels to appear as man, but it is quite another for angels to come in the flesh of men... I think it is crossing a line that God forbids... We will not be angels when we die.. we can be like them in many ways, but we will still have bodies, which they do not... for they are spirit.

 

[Ryan L]

It is one thing for angels to appear as man, but it is quite another for angels to come in the flesh of men... I think it is crossing a line that God forbids... We will not be angels when we die.. we can be like them in many ways, but we will still have bodies, which they do not... for they are spirit.

Ah, I see what you mean. In post #57 i said they would possess a human body and would be mortal. I don't know the physiological gists of it all, but I believe whatever make up there human form possesses can die. That is if, of course, you gravitate to them as being the Two Witnesses. Whether they are bound to the same physiological responses we are, if they are the Two Witnesses, is a mystery to me, but glad you are bringing up these points to really think things through. Did they cease to be angels? No, I don't believe that. Just taking on a human form of some kind and whatever else that entails. But I still believe scriptures point to them as being the Two Witnesses, IMO.

 

[Balshan]

I also believe their message will knock many long held denominational believes off their rocker, and many will refuse their testimony due to stubborness or it doesn't fit in with their "theology" and "traditions." Their message will be the purest, most unadulterated message since Jesus was on earth that will really unnerve many people. Especially for those who reject Torah observance. This may be a rather large pill for some to follow. Especially for those who accept only Pauline scripture and their interpretation as the Torah being done with.

Hi Ryan

An interesting concept. However, we would need a complete definition of Torah observance because the main commandment is to love God and your neighbour etc. This covers the Torah. It is not the additions made by man over the centuries in any denomination. Remember we would not go back to stoning others because it would have to be someone without sin as an example. It is the heart that is important and of course we do follow commandments such as those against killing etc. The only ones believers disagree on is the ones concerning the feasts and the festivals, which cannot be followed as set down in the Tanach as there is no Temple. The other is Kosher and the rules for Kosher set down in the Tanach are simple compared to the hedges that have been laid down by tradition over the years. But this discussion is about who the witnesses are, I believe their message is the unchanging message of a call to repentance and to love God. We know that they would have to be righteous, they would not be someone who has come back from the dead. There is no indication for that, it could be someone who has been taken up alive to heaven. I understand your logic for the angels, it is interesting not sure if it is valid. Thanks

 

[Ryan L]

Hi Ryan

An interesting concept. However, we would need a complete definition of Torah observance because the main commandment is to love God and your neighbour etc. This covers the Torah. It is not the additions made by man over the centuries in any denomination. Remember we would not go back to stoning others because it would have to be someone without sin as an example. It is the heart that is important and of course we do follow commandments such as those against killing etc. The only ones believers disagree on is the ones concerning the feasts and the festivals, which cannot be followed as set down in the Tanach as there is no Temple. The other is Kosher and the rules for Kosher set down in the Tanach are simple compared to the hedges that have been laid down by tradition over the years. But this discussion is about who the witnesses are, I believe their message is the unchanging message of a call to repentance and to love God. We know that they would have to be righteous, they would not be someone who has come back from the dead. There is no indication for that, it could be someone who has been taken up alive to heaven. I understand your logic for the angels, it is interesting not sure if it is valid. Thanks

Just throwing this out there, but what will be the reaction of millions and millions of believers who believe the Sabbath is on Sunday, all of a sudden being told it is, and always was Fri-Sat? Would churches on a mass scale convert to observing the Sabbath on the right day due to their testimony? Could this be part of their testimony? Maybe. Message of repentance? Absolutely. Would they preach about how to be obedient after repenting? I'm not sure and am only speculating, but I think they will.

That's what is so interesting, yet so frustrating about studying the end times. So many different theories and ideas, just like this one.

 

[Balshan]

Just throwing this out there, but what will be the reaction of millions and millions of believers who believe the Sabbath is on Sunday, all of a sudden being told it is, and always was Fri-Sat? Would churches on a mass scale convert to observing the Sabbath on the right day due to their testimony? Could this be part of their testimony? Maybe. Message of repentance? Absolutely. Would they preach about how to be obedient after repenting? I'm not sure and am only speculating, but I think they will.

That's what is so interesting, yet so frustrating about studying the end times. So many different theories and ideas, just like this one.

I don't think we see masses becoming awake or repenting because it says the people rejoice over the death of these two prophets. I don't think things change much, people have always hated the truth. I am stunned that even if it is not literal after the reign of peace there are a mass of people who still follow satan, which again shows a lack of repentence. Do you think the book of Revelation reveals there will always be those who will do what they want to destroy others coming to the truth?

 

[visionary]

In Rev 10 the call to come up hither and eat the scroll and "prophecy again" seems to be telling as the very next thing is Rev 11 where the two "witnesses" come like inspired men from heaven with the contrast extreme visualized, realized, and now they want to emphasize because of what they saw and understand from the reading of the scroll. They too know that time is short, the kingdom of heaven is coming in full force, and the people of God are still held captive by sins, delusions, deceptions, and no concept of the world to come. Their message is clear, the power of God backing their message is equal if not more powerful that what Satan cane bring to bear against it.

At this time there is also the great arising of all the evil forces in the kingdoms of man, whether it be religious, political, medical, financial, military, or a combination of the lies found within each united together to entrap the minds of men into believing there is no other way. There will also be a great army of spiritual forces from beneath from the abyss as there is a fall from above that will overwhelm the humans of earth with things outside their world of dwelling. And it all comes to bear more things than a tornado can in uprooting the world as we know it, reducing everything to rubble in its frenzy. The mark of God in nature is gone, the mark of God in man is gone as men's minds are caught up in the terror of what they see before them, and the withdrawal of the Holy Spirit from those whose hearts are seared, too hardened, or too possessed beyond redemption. They are many who had the return of seven more to party in their minds, creating uncontrollable psycho, sadistic, masochistic, perverted, sociopathic wretches who no longer have any resemblances to the image of God. The remnant of God see what the abomination of desolation truly is and flee.

Since the war in heaven is now whittled down to this last piece of God's kingdom here on earth, if focuses on where God has placed His Mark, on His People, His Land, His Promises, and His children everywhere.

Satan will insanely rage at all who will not bow the knee. God's good angels will have to double up on security guarding the few against the many evils. It would not surprise me at all that at this time Michael stands up. Gabriel, I can see also playing a key role. This time it will be both men and angels joined together to battle the evil men and the evil angels who work in and through them.

Written for your visualizations...

 

[yedida]

Hi Ryan

An interesting concept. However, we would need a complete definition of Torah observance because the main commandment is to love God and your neighbour etc. This covers the Torah. It is not the additions made by man over the centuries in any denomination. Remember we would not go back to stoning others because it would have to be someone without sin as an example. It is the heart that is important and of course we do follow commandments such as those against killing etc. The only ones believers disagree on is the ones concerning the feasts and the festivals, which cannot be followed as set down in the Tanach as there is no Temple. The other is Kosher and the rules for Kosher set down in the Tanach are simple compared to the hedges that have been laid down by tradition over the years. But this discussion is about who the witnesses are, I believe their message is the unchanging message of a call to repentance and to love God. We know that they would have to be righteous, they would not be someone who has come back from the dead. There is no indication for that, it could be someone who has been taken up alive to heaven. I understand your logic for the angels, it is interesting not sure if it is valid. Thanks

Where'd you get the idea that stoning requires someone without sin? That is just wrong. If you're thinking of what Yeshua said, he said it because the entire scenario with the woman was wrong. No one in that whole story was without sin (at that very moment) except Yeshua.
But being sinless is not a prerequisite to throwing the first stone, you just have to have clean hands where your witness is concerned in the matter being judged.

 

[Ryan L]

I don't think we see masses becoming awake or repenting because it says the people rejoice over the death of these two prophets. I don't think things change much, people have always hated the truth. I am stunned that even if it is not literal after the reign of peace there are a mass of people who still follow satan, which again shows a lack of repentence. Do you think the book of Revelation reveals there will always be those who will do what they want to destroy others coming to the truth?

I'm holding out hope that the coming tribulation will bring more people to salvation than at any other time in history...combined.

 

[Ryan L]

In Rev 10 the call to come up hither and eat the scroll and "prophecy again" seems to be telling as the very next thing is Rev 11 where the two "witnesses" come like inspired men from heaven with the contrast extreme visualized, realized, and now they want to emphasize because of what they saw and understand from the reading of the scroll. They too know that time is short, the kingdom of heaven is coming in full force, and the people of God are still held captive by sins, delusions, deceptions, and no concept of the world to come. Their message is clear, the power of God backing their message is equal if not more powerful that what Satan cane bring to bear against it.

At this time there is also the great arising of all the evil forces in the kingdoms of man, whether it be religious, political, medical, financial, military, or a combination of the lies found within each united together to entrap the minds of men into believing there is no other way. There will also be a great army of spiritual forces from beneath from the abyss as there is a fall from above that will overwhelm the humans of earth with things outside their world of dwelling. And it all comes to bear more things than a tornado can in uprooting the world as we know it, reducing everything to rubble in its frenzy. The mark of God in nature is gone, the mark of God in man is gone as men's minds are caught up in the terror of what they see before them, and the withdrawal of the Holy Spirit from those whose hearts are seared, too hardened, or too possessed beyond redemption. They are many who had the return of seven more to party in their minds, creating uncontrollable psycho, sadistic, masochistic, perverted, sociopathic wretches who no longer have any resemblances to the image of God. The remnant of God see what the abomination of desolation truly is and flee.

Since the war in heaven is now whittled down to this last piece of God's kingdom here on earth, if focuses on where God has placed His Mark, on His People, His Land, His Promises, and His children everywhere.

Satan will insanely rage at all who will not bow the knee. God's good angels will have to double up on security guarding the few against the many evils. It would not surprise me at all that at this time Michael stands up. Gabriel, I can see also playing a key role. This time it will be both men and angels joined together to battle the evil men and the evil angels who work in and through them.

Written for your visualizations...

Good visual, being a visual person myself.

 

[Ryan L]

So back to topic, does anyone have any scriptural reasons why it couldn't be Michael and Gabriel?

 

[visionary]

So back to topic, does anyone have any scriptural reasons why it couldn't be Michael and Gabriel?

Other than the hic-cup I have over the two most powerful angels in heaven getting beheaded... like who is powerful enough to even slow let alone hold captive those two.

 

[yedida]

Other than the hic-cup I have over the two most powerful angels in heaven getting beheaded... like who is powerful enough to even slow let alone hold captive those two.

Vissy, when Hashem deems it is time, anyone can be killed. And if it is not in His time, then nothing anyone can do will take someone else's life. What's the problem?

 

[visionary]

Vissy, when Hashem deems it is time, anyone can be killed. And if it is not in His time, then nothing anyone can do will take someone else's life. What's the problem?

Ever heard of an angel dying?

 

[yedida]

Ever heard of an angel dying?

No, but I've never read it to be Hashem's design either until Rev. (if they are indeed Michael and Gabriel). But if it's them, then I see no problem in it, they will have taken on human form for their divine mission and when they've fulfilled their task as alive, they will complete it with their deaths, resurrections and ascensions.

 

[visionary]

It sure takes the whole faith level to the next level... where the mingling of angel's world and man's world converge.. but I thought man has to prove himself in living the truth via God's spirit and overcome it all.. victorious in Him. Taking the message to the world is part of that assignment.

 

[yedida]

It sure takes the whole faith level to the next level... where the mingling of angel's world and man's world converge.. but I thought man has to prove himself in living the truth via God's spirit and overcome it all.. victorious in Him. Taking the message to the world is part of that assignment.

4

And of course, I come back around to why I don't get so heavily involved in the whole scenario. It's highly unlikely we gonna be here anyway. Even if we are, if we're about His business the who, where, what, why and when is not in our control - but what we are doing is. So that is what I focus in on. Yeshua said don't worry about tomorrow, today has enough evil in it to keep us totally occupied just overcoming it day by day.

 

[visionary]

4

And of course, I come back around to why I don't get so heavily involved in the whole scenario. It's highly unlikely we gonna be here anyway. Even if we are, if we're about His business the who, where, what, why and when is not in our control - but what we are doing is. So that is what I focus in on. Yeshua said don't worry about tomorrow, today has enough evil in it to keep us totally occupied just overcoming it day by day.

amen.... It is interesting that you should mention that... I had a conversation with the Lord last night about this very thing... and He asked me... which is better to have the light at your feet or further up the path? I couldn't answer because I saw the benefit of both.. so my light needs to be balanced between watching where my feet tread and watching ahead for what is there.... So I will try to be a little more balanced and not heavy into feet watching or the other end of the path I am taking.