Support Needed from Fellow Lutherans

[porterross]

Fellow Lutherans.
I am new to these forums and very much relieved to have found this site and especially this area specifically for conservative Lutherans.
I was raised in the LCMS and after many years of making mistakes and experiencing what the corporeal world has to offer, I know in my heart that I took being raised in such a wonderful religion for granted and turned my back on my devotion for a great many years.
Marrying a non-believer was a mistake and I have paid dearly for that mistake. Except for the beautiful child that this union produced, it was disastrous and I struggled for years to overcome the damage I allowed myself to be subjected to.

My point to this post is a quest for opinions and perspectives from those of you who perhaps made better choices and never allowed your life within the Church to fade from importance in your life AND from those who's circumstances may be similar to mine.

My child and I are beginning to attend church now and I want so much to have a conversation with our pastor (whom I've know most of my life) and express my regrets and desire to be a devout Lutheran again, but I am so afraid of being judged harshly by those in the congregation who have not made the same kind of personal mistakes. This concerns me because as a child I remember the conversations of the adults in the church about members who had been divorced and it they were judged very harshly.

My mistakes are my own, but I wish to commit myself to embracing my religion and changing my life for the better on the spiritual level for both myself and my child without having to answer too many uncomfortable questions regarding my absence form the Church.

Your opinions and guidance are heartily welcome.

 

[LilLamb219]

Yikes! Lutherans not making mistakes?? Can't happen!

I've made my share of mistakes and I can bet that every single person in that congregation has made their share as well. Don't avoid going to church to receive God's gifts because of other people. They'll most likely be happy to see you there worshipping with them.



I'm married to a Roman Catholic and have endured some hard times in the struggle of our child and her religious upbringing. In a way I regret not marrying a Lutheran, but in another way, I have a wonderful child who understands God's grace and is able to share it with her friends...even though my husband insists she goes to church with him That is my woe!! But, she has learned from me about by grace through faith because I've told everyone that when she asks questions, I'll teach her from the Bible. And I have!

Glad to have you here at the board!

 

[ctay]

I've got about the same story you do. I was raised in an LCMS church, got married, got out of going to church for many years. I wouldn't say my husband is a non believer, he has a problem with "churches", he's a cynical person. I've been trying to get back into church for a few years, decided to try a different church, still a LCMS Church, I've been going to church regular now for almost a year now. Hopefully if I keep going, hubby will join me.

 

[Jim47]

Welcome to the forum.

I understand your fear, I think we all harbor fears of sins we have committed, but I can assure you that your Pastor and church will welcome you with open arms.

In my church we have been working on some members who haven't been there in along time, and we are always over joyed when someone starts coming.

 

[Flipper]

Read my signature. Our pastor acutally had a sermon on it last week (walked around with a lincoln log stuck to his face). If they are a worthy congregation of your presence, they will welcome you back with open arms.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

Read my signature. Our pastor acutally had a sermon on it last week (walked around with a lincoln log stuck to his face). If they are a worthy congregation of your presence, they will welcome you back with open arms.

Very good Flip---hit the nail on the head.

porterross you are excedingly welcome here. Ever hear of the prodigal son or our sins are forgiven as far as the east is from the west?

Anyway I was in the same situation for MANY years. Even so far as to get involved in transendental meditation, white whitchcraft, astral projection, being an outlaw biker, totally ruined my marriage by drinking and cheating on my wife. God has forgiven me so that my sins are totally forgotten and I even sometimes find it hard to believe. After all "My grace is sufficient for thee and my strength is made perfect in your weakness". THere are some of us that were TOTALLY unworthy but God does loves us and we are His by His grace and mercy.......AMEN

 

[porterross]

I'm married to a Roman Catholic and have endured some hard times in the struggle of our child and her religious upbringing. In a way I regret not marrying a Lutheran, but in another way, I have a wonderful child who understands God's grace and is able to share it with her friends...even though my husband insists she goes to church with him That is my woe!! But, she has learned from me about by grace through faith because I've told everyone that when she asks questions, I'll teach her from the Bible. And I have!

Glad to have you here at the board!

Thanks LilLamb
Your kind words mean more to me than you realize. God bless you in guiding your daughter's faith.

I've got about the same story you do. I was raised in an LCMS church, got married, got out of going to church for many years. I wouldn't say my husband is a non believer, he has a problem with "churches", he's a cynical person. I've been trying to get back into church for a few years, decided to try a different church, still a LCMS Church, I've been going to church regular now for almost a year now. Hopefully if I keep going, hubby will join me.

It's not easy to share with someone who's beliefs are different from your own, but I admire your determination to attend for your own sake. Being away from the Church and actually removed from God's Word made me increasingly cynical, so I'll pray that your husband one day realizes this as well.
P.S. The hypocrisy of many self-proclaimed devout Christians aided my absence from worship.

Welcome to the forum.

I understand your fear, I think we all harbor fears of sins we have committed, but I can assure you that your Pastor and church will welcome you with open arms.

In my church we have been working on some members who haven't been there in along time, and we are always over joyed when someone starts coming.

Thanks Jim.
My pastor causes me no fear whatsoever. He is actually a retired exec. who is taking in part in the program that allows ordination by means of distance learning and annual class attendance for a short time at the seminary. I know there's a name for this program, but it escapes me.
This is a small community with a membership of less than 50 people and the Church cannot call a pastor with a guarantee of adequate financial support. Our pastor is truly a kind and good-hearted man with whom I have no reservations of sharing my thoughts.

Read my signature. Our pastor acutally had a sermon on it last week (walked around with a lincoln log stuck to his face). If they are a worthy congregation of your presence, they will welcome you back with open arms.

You're absolutley right, Flipper, but reading the passages in the Bible that are most definite on divorce are intimidating when you think about who within the Church might be making the decision about whether or not I can marry in the Church again. Beyond that, would a devout Lutheran man see me as tainted given the literal meaning of the Bible? It's all very scary when thinking about the future and the possibilty of happiness.



Thank you all so much for your kind words of support and encouragement. I know I've been through what must be the hardest part of returning to my faith, but I need to know that I am not alone in fearing what's yet to come.

God bless you all.

 

[porterross]

Very good Flip---hit the nail on the head.

porterross you are excedingly welcome here. Ever hear of the prodigal son or our sins are forgiven as far as the east is from the west?

Anyway I was in the same situation for MANY years. Even so far as to get involved in transendental meditation, white whitchcraft, astral projection, being an outlaw biker, totally ruined my marriage by drinking and cheating on my wife. God has forgiven me so that my sins are totally forgotten and I even sometimes find it hard to believe. After all "My grace is sufficient for thee and my strength is made perfect in your weakness". THere are some of us that were TOTALLY unworthy but God does loves us and we are His by His grace and mercy.......AMEN

Wow, Rad. Good for you in finding your way home.

I know full well that God will forgive me and accept me back home with open arms. I think about the Prodigal Son often as a matter of fact.
My biggest concern is that of being devoted daily to improving my life here on Earth by being more kind to others and myself, being the mother my daughter deserves, and making a habit of being a true Christian knowing that it is the only way to have the joyous and peaceful life that I long for.

Thank you for sharing your story with me.

 

[SPALATIN]

Fellow Lutherans.
I am new to these forums and very much relieved to have found this site and especially this area specifically for conservative Lutherans.
I was raised in the LCMS and after many years of making mistakes and experiencing what the corporeal world has to offer, I know in my heart that I took being raised in such a wonderful religion for granted and turned my back on my devotion for a great many years.
Marrying a non-believer was a mistake and I have paid dearly for that mistake. Except for the beautiful child that this union produced, it was disastrous and I struggled for years to overcome the damage I allowed myself to be subjected to.

My point to this post is a quest for opinions and perspectives from those of you who perhaps made better choices and never allowed your life within the Church to fade from importance in your life AND from those who's circumstances may be similar to mine.

My child and I are beginning to attend church now and I want so much to have a conversation with our pastor (whom I've know most of my life) and express my regrets and desire to be a devout Lutheran again, but I am so afraid of being judged harshly by those in the congregation who have not made the same kind of personal mistakes. This concerns me because as a child I remember the conversations of the adults in the church about members who had been divorced and it they were judged very harshly.

My mistakes are my own, but I wish to commit myself to embracing my religion and changing my life for the better on the spiritual level for both myself and my child without having to answer too many uncomfortable questions regarding my absence form the Church.

Your opinions and guidance are heartily welcome.

As someone who has made his share of mistakes in the corporeal world I can empathize with you. Make an appointment with your pastor and discuss these things with him . He is obligated to keep the "confession" to himself. I would be surprised if he turned his back on you because his job is to help you be restored to the fold. Go to him penitent and remorseful for where you have been (much like the prodigal son).

God has already welcomed you back. Pray before going to him that God will soften the Pastor's heart and after you have spoken to him ask him to help you return to a life of faith.

I can't speak for every LCMS Pastor out there, but the one's I have known and whom I hope to emulate care very much for those who have left the congregation. When they come back it is even sweeter. In fact, they should kill the fatted calf and throw a celebration for every prodigal that returns to the fold and if when I become a pastor I am going to do just that.

I hope this helps even if just a little.


P.S.

Hey everyone maybe we should start a tradition in our churches whereby we have a fellowship party for any prodigal child upon their return to fellowship. Make it a barbeque or dinner or hey even a good egg bake breakfast and welcome them back by running to them at the moment you spot them walking up the drive. We need to rejoice when they return for as the father in the parable of the lost son said "he was dead and is alive again, he was lost and now is found."

We can call them "Welcome Home" celebrations.

 

[Flipper]

but reading the passages in the Bible that are most definite on divorce are intimidating when you think about who within the Church might be making the decision about whether or not I can marry in the Church again. Beyond that, would a devout Lutheran man see me as tainted given the literal meaning of the Bible? It's all very scary when thinking about the future and the possibilty of happiness.

I hope you aren't reading down in the marriage forum. They (as in the few who post regularly) take a very, how do I say it, harsh view on those who divorce, and even worse if they remarry - regardless if it was for a strict-interpretation Biblical reason or not. They don't even believe that one should be happy in a marriage. It's a tough subject because it's law being used in the NT. If it's in the OT, you can make a case for OT law transgressions being washed away with Christ's blood. Little hard to do it it's in the NT, and it came from Jesus Himself. Even so, I firmly believe that this is another example of where Grace comes into play.

I still don't think it's our place to judge - none of us are without sin, and I'm sure all of us have repeated sins. I know people in their second marriages who are involved in church, and I know people in their second marriages who would never have come back to church if it weren't for the Holy Spirit working through the second spouse. The only thing I don't think you could do is become a pastor - because they should be held to a higher standard than the rest of us. However, I don't see why you can't do anything else within the church, including remarry.

If you are looking for technical reasons, if your first wife was an unbeliever - many pastors will take the interpretation that divorce is acceptable - it is in the Bible, but I don't have it in front of me to look up the passage. I just think your reasons are your own, and I just pray that you can get back into church and into a Christ-centered relationship.

 

[Flipper]

P.S.

Hey everyone maybe we should start a tradition in our churches whereby we have a fellowship party for any prodigal child upon their return to fellowship. Make it a barbeque or dinner or hey even a good egg bake breakfast and welcome them back by running to them at the moment you spot them walking up the drive. We need to rejoice when they return for as the father in the parable of the lost son said "he was dead and is alive again, he was lost and now is found."

We can call them "Welcome Home" celebrations.

I'll bring the Beer!!

 

[SPALATIN]

You're absolutley right, Flipper, but reading the passages in the Bible that are most definite on divorce are intimidating when you think about who within the Church might be making the decision about whether or not I can marry in the Church again. Beyond that, would a devout Lutheran man see me as tainted given the literal meaning of the Bible? It's all very scary when thinking about the future and the possibilty of happiness.

A quick little thing on those verses on marriage in Matthew. Jesus is speaking to those in the crowd who divorce without cause here. Many of the Jewish leaders were giving their wives certificates of divorce for reasons other than the ones Jesus specified. He knew this and threw the true essence of the law back at them.

If you consider the essence of your marriage you said that you married an unbeliever which caused many problems for you. Did he abuse you physically, verbally, mentally? Did he withhold things you were entitled to in your marriage?

The Good news is that Christ died for the sins committed in that marriage and divorce. While you can not go back and repair the damage that led to the divorce you can be remorseful that it ended the way it did and pray for forgiveness. God will forgive you.

The Lutheran Church is not the Roman Catholic Church. Divorce is not a barrier to getting remarried. I will advise though that the next time you are prepared to make that step in your life that you and your future husband seek pre-marital counseling to know that you are both spiritually compatible as well as your mutual physical and mental attraction to each other.

 

[porterross]

A quick little thing on those verses on marriage in Matthew. Jesus is speaking to those in the crowd who divorce without cause here. Many of the Jewish leaders were giving their wives certificates of divorce for reasons other than the ones Jesus specified. He knew this and threw the true essence of the law back at them.

If you consider the essence of your marriage you said that you married an unbeliever which caused many problems for you. Did he abuse you physically, verbally, mentally? Did he withhold things you were entitled to in your marriage?

The Good news is that Christ died for the sins committed in that marriage and divorce. While you can not go back and repair the damage that led to the divorce you can be remorseful that it ended the way it did and pray for forgiveness. God will forgive you.

The Lutheran Church is not the Roman Catholic Church. Divorce is not a barrier to getting remarried. I will advise though that the next time you are prepared to make that step in your life that you and your future husband seek pre-marital counseling to know that you are both spiritually compatible as well as your mutual physical and mental attraction to each other.

SPALATIN
Great words of encouragement and support. Thank you.
The abuse we (my daughter & I) encountered was more of the passive aggressive type.
My ex husband, although highly educated, refused to pursue jobs that made use of his education and research background after being dismissed from a position at his alma mater. The reasons for this dismissal were never made clear to me and even worse, the fact that he was dismissed only became known to me after paying the monthly bills to discover there was not direct deposit that month. Can you imagine? No income and no warning that the end to a salary was coming.

He was never much help around the house to begin with, always spent more money than he made and lied about it, but having no motivation to work and provide any income for the family was the beginning of the road to the end for me. He is now mostly supported by the woman he lives with, which is I suppose exactly all he desires. He makes no attempt to contact his daughter.

So you tell me, does a man who makes his family feel unloved and unwanted and refuses to support them financially warrant divorcing?

Things were going from bad to worse and he was doing things to purposely sabotage our household on more levels than I wish to go into here, but I had to accept that we could not go on under the conditions he was determined to have us in. I begged him to get counseling in the hopes that whatever was bothering him could be helped by a mental health professional, but he absolutely refused. So for the sake of my child and our future, I broke my legal ties to him.

Is it a sin to refuse to be dragged into an emotional abyss and financial ruin with someone who's obviously determined to go there themselves and drag those with them that they have declared no care for?

Physical abuse and infidelity are not the only destructive forces in a marriage, especially when the offending spouse refuses to recognize the damage they're doing.

Thanks for letting me ramble.

 

[SPALATIN]

SPALATIN
Great words of encouragement and support. Thank you.
The abuse we (my daughter & I) encountered was more of the passive aggressive type.
My ex husband, although highly educated, refused to pursue jobs that made use of his education and research background after being dismissed from a position at his alma mater. The reasons for this dismissal were never made clear to me and even worse, the fact that he was dismissed only became known to me after paying the monthly bills to discover there was not direct deposit that month. Can you imagine? No income and no warning that the end to a salary was coming.

He was never much help around the house to begin with, always spent more money than he made and lied about it, but having no motivation to work and provide any income for the family was the beginning of the road to the end for me. He is now mostly supported by the woman he lives with, which is I suppose exactly all he desires. He makes no attempt to contact his daughter.

So you tell me, does a man who makes his family feel unloved and unwanted and refuses to support them financially warrant divorcing?

Things were going from bad to worse and he was doing things to purposely sabotage our household on more levels than I wish to go into here, but I had to accept that we could not go on under the conditions he was determined to have us in. I begged him to get counseling in the hopes that whatever was bothering him could be helped by a mental health professional, but he absolutely refused. So for the sake of my child and our future, I broke my legal ties to him.

Is it a sin to refuse to be dragged into an emotional abyss and financial ruin with someone who's obviously determined to go there themselves and drag those with them that they have declared no care for?

Physical abuse and infidelity are not the only destructive forces in a marriage, especially when the offending spouse refuses to recognize the damage they're doing.

Thanks for letting me ramble.

I would say that financial and social abandonment were the reasons you could say were proper reasons for divorce in your case. From what you tell me he seems to be clinically depressed, but then again I am not a psychologist.

You are always welcome to ramble on with me.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

You're absolutley right, Flipper, but reading the passages in the Bible that are most definite on divorce are intimidating when you think about who within the Church might be making the decision about whether or not I can marry in the Church again. Beyond that, would a devout Lutheran man see me as tainted given the literal meaning of the Bible? It's all very scary when thinking about the future and the possibilty of happiness.

I went through the same thing on getting remarried after a divorce. I first asked my pastor if it was allright to get remarried after leaving my wife and he said if I was truly repentent and was truly sorry for my sins then I could. This is from a very confessional, conservative minister in the church. The key here is truly repentent as is discribed in this exegitical study done for LCMS in 1987:

"The question remains, however, whether the pastor may announce God's forgiveness where genuine repentance appears to be in evidence. To deny such persons the assurance of God's pardon would be to limit the atoning work of Jesus Christ, in whom there is forgiveness for all sins. No matter how heinously a person has sinned, Jesus atoned for all sin, also for the sin of adultery (1 Cor. 6:9-11). He received many gross sinners in His day, also adulterers. He was always willing to receive any and every repentant sinner. It is difficult to imagine our Lord turning away one broken by the accusations of the law and desirous of God's mercy and help. "Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound" (Rom. 5:20). The words of Jesus to the adulterous woman in John 8 "neither do I condemn you," reveals that the grace of God covers also this sin. Jesus then proceeds to tell the woman, "Go, and do not sin again," that is, she is now to give evidence of her repentance.
It is within the context of these words of Jesus, which are typical of His approach to matters of this kind, that the request of divorced persons desiring remarriage must be evaluated and a response given that is in harmony with what the Scriptures teach regarding repentance and the forgiveness of sins. In cases of the remarriage of persons divorced for reasons not Biblically sanctioned, true repentance would presuppose a genuine desire to reconcile with one's estranged spouse. It is difficult to imagine, for example, how genuine contrition can exist or how absolution can be announced when there is present a refusal to seek healing. Where the refusal to reconcile and to seek healing is judged to be absent insofar as such a judgment is possible the pastor will be constrained to deny a request for remarriage.
There are circumstances, however, where there are reasons to believe that true repentance is indeed present but where reconciliation and restoration of a broken marriage simply are not possible, either because the former spouse has remarried or is unwilling to be reconciled. In such cases, remarriage becomes a possibility. Considerable caution must be exercised by pastors, however, lest what may be considered possible under exceptional circumstances come to be interpreted as license to disregard God's will in this regard. By no means may encouragement be given to go on sinning "that grace may abound." (Rom. 6:1-2) What has been said above about the remarriage of persons divorced for unscriptural reasons may also be applied to the acquiring and holding of membership in the Christian congregation. Christian discipline in the congregation must be exercised in a firm, loving, and consistent manner, lest the offense of unrepented sin cause others to stumble. "

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/mosynod/web/divrem-2.html#sum


I had extensive discussions with members of other denoms and they were of the opinion that I could not remarry. They all based this on the full observation of the law and not the Grace and mercy of God. Charismatic, A&G, pentecostal and other evangelical churches believe like the jewish people that strict observance of the law is what saves and not the Gospel (grace) of God. Somewhat similar to the goods works of the RC church.

Unfortunately if you ask questions about remarriage, if you didn't get a biblical divorce, outside of the LCMS and talk to other Lutheran denoms you might get different answers.

 

[porterross]

"The question remains, however, whether the pastor may announce God's forgiveness where genuine repentance appears to be in evidence. To deny such persons the assurance of God's pardon would be to limit the atoning work of Jesus Christ, in whom there is forgiveness for all sins. No matter how heinously a person has sinned, Jesus atoned for all sin, also for the sin of adultery (1 Cor. 6:9-11). He received many gross sinners in His day, also adulterers. He was always willing to receive any and every repentant sinner. It is difficult to imagine our Lord turning away one broken by the accusations of the law and desirous of God's mercy and help. "Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound" (Rom. 5:20). The words of Jesus to the adulterous woman in John 8 "neither do I condemn you," reveals that the grace of God covers also this sin. Jesus then proceeds to tell the woman, "Go, and do not sin again," that is, she is now to give evidence of her repentance.

The recognition and acceptance of my own responsibility in what was brought on by my own bad choices was my epiphany. Acknowledging that first and foremost I had turned away from God, leading to the "snowball effect of sin", as it were, was the beginning of my penitence and the long, painful, liberating conversations with my Father.

God never lost faith in me finding my way home and I don't ever want to even think about wandering off again. The pain of being lost was too great and the joy of being home again is too overwhelming to ever consider giving up.

I am truly blessed.

 

[ctay]

One good thing, even though my husband won't go to church with me, he doesn't tell me not to go. He's hard to talk to about why he won't go, he gets defensive. All I feel I can do right now is set a good example and invite him, he has come with me a few times. I just hope and pray he'll start going regular one day. He was brought up in a Baptist church.

 

[porterross]

I hope you aren't reading down in the marriage forum. They (as in the few who post regularly) take a very, how do I say it, harsh view on those who divorce, and even worse if they remarry - regardless if it was for a strict-interpretation Biblical reason or not. They don't even believe that one should be happy in a marriage. It's a tough subject because it's law being used in the NT. If it's in the OT, you can make a case for OT law transgressions being washed away with Christ's blood. Little hard to do it it's in the NT, and it came from Jesus Himself. Even so, I firmly believe that this is another example of where Grace comes into play.
quote]


Flipper
I didn't know there was a marriage forum until you mentioned it, but there is a section there specifically for divorce issues. Seems there are a number of posters there who are just now going through the pain of divorce so maybe I can help some of them.

Fortunately enough time has passed (7 years) that the sting of the divorce itself and the blame I placed on my ex for the damage caused has long been let go. My focus has been protecting and educating my daughter and getting us to a level of financial soundness so life is not stressful on that level. So far so good.

I can't imagine anyone not wanting a joyous marriage. That is my goal, but I have time to find it and until my daughter leaves for college, there are so many other prioroities.

Guess I'll have to lurk over there to see some of these extreme views on marriage without suffering being a bad thing. How sad.

Do you think that maybe those folks are some of those over the top Christians like the crazy Christian woman on wife swap? That's the first image that popped in my mind when I read your description of their views on marriage.

P.S.
What kind of beer were you planning to bring to BBQ?
I think those kind of feasts are a great idea!
Prodigal Pot Lucks

 

[porterross]

One good thing, even though my husband won't go to church with me, he doesn't tell me not to go. He's hard to talk to about why he won't go, he gets defensive. All I feel I can do right now is set a good example and invite him, he has come with me a few times. I just hope and pray he'll start going regular one day. He was brought up in a Baptist church.

ctay
Yes. It could be worse for you, but maybe God will find the door to his heart again. It does make you wonder why he feels the way he does, doesn't it. Unfortunately, the high level of hypocrisy among very vocal church goers undoes the desires of a great many would-be members. I'll keep you in my prayers.

 

[Protoevangel]

Ctay, don't give up! I was just like your husband for the first many years of my marriage. My wife never pushed, but like you, simply invited me occasionally. She got her friends at church to pray for me, and was patient. Now look what it got her! lol

Porterross, Yes, it is unfortunate that so many allow the hypocracy of others to keep them from where they need to be. Welcome back!