Spirit-filled homosexual relationship, is that possible?

[Polycarp1]

Jesus Christ is the Logos, the Word of God incarnate as human being. The Bible is not "the Word of God" in some absolute and abstract sense. The communion to which both Brightmorningstar and I belong subscribes to two parallel wordings of our understanding of Scripture: "The Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament as the revealed word of God" and "The Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments as 'containing all things necessary to salvation' and as being the rule and absolute standard of faith." The latter was the expanded understanding of the former, and defines what we mean by the Bible as 'the word of God.'

My view on Scripture is that it contains the word of God, is the precious record of God's work among man especially as seen in the life, teachings, passion, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. But it must be understood as the collection of documents it is: historical legends and annals of the Hebrew people, prophetic utterances reduced to writing, songs of praise, Gospels (polemic biographies of Jesus written to instruct and convert), letters to churches and individuals intended to resolve questions, etc. To abstract Bible verses out of context and insist they contain God's will without reference to the Biblical and cultural context for their writing is to err in exactly the same way as to commit Bibliomancy -- open the Bible at random with eyes closed, point with your finger, and hope the passage you point to gives you guidance. Eitrher act is reducing God's written word as to how we can live lives pleasing to Him, to puerile legalistic fortune-telling.

The Holy Spirit is at work in the believer, no matter how much he may rebel against His guidance. And it is Jesus's Atonement, conveying God's grace, that saves, not what one does or does not do sexually or in any other part of one's life. To be sure, one can invoke God's judgment, by rejecting Christ or by willfully going against His teachings.

One way to do the latter is by denying others the forgiveness and grace which we as sinners were given through no merit of our own. Many conservative Christians seem intent to do just that to people of same-sex orientation, or at least those who have not maintained celibacy. If the Holy Spirit wishes him or her to maintain celibacy, or to change orientation, He will equip him/her with the ability and strength to do so -- it is not for us to demand that of others.

 

[Texas Lynn]

You sound like some angry high school cheerleader.

Thanks for the compliment but my days of doing handsprings are over.

God isn't gonna change the meaning of His Word just because liberals think He is mean.

But the truth is that humankind's understanding of the meaning of the Word of God is constantly changing and will continue to.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Polycarp, thanks for Post # 81; nothing I can add to that eloquent essay there.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Texas Lynn,

The "true Christian" argument is as baseless as the "No True Scotsman" shibboleth. Moreover, you propose a version of "True Christianity which was not practiced generally for the first 1900 years of the history of the faith.

Sorry but its not baseless as I have given the scriptures as a base. Your argument is baseless as it just your opinion without evidence.

Use of run-on sentences and elastic assertions from scripture out of context proves nothing except that you know the citations for a few verses.

It proves I have evidence as a base for my argument, and it also proves that while you haven’t you also don’t believe or accept the Biblical base.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Polycarp1,

Jesus Christ is the Logos, the Word of God incarnate as human being. The Bible is not "the Word of God" in some absolute and abstract sense.

Ok let me stop you there. Once again you haven’t properly addressed the point made. Jesus Christ is the Word, but what was being discussed was the ‘word’
Jesus Christ as the Word spoke and taught the word of God. There are many NT references to the Biblical scriptures and what Jesus taught being the word of God. Of the many for example
Hebrews 4:12 “For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.”
1 John 2:14 “I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God lives in you, and you have overcome the evil one.”
Colossians 1:25 “I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness—“
2 Corinthians 4:2 “Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.”
Luke 11:28 “He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."

The communion to which both Brightmorningstar and I belong subscribes to two parallel wordings of our understanding of Scripture: "The Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament as the revealed word of God" and "The Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments as 'containing all things necessary to salvation' and as being the rule and absolute standard of faith." The latter was the expanded understanding of the former, and defines what we mean by the Bible as 'the word of God.' – Which means the OT and NT are the word of God, like they say they are.

My view on Scripture

Ok I am not really interested in your view of scripture if it doesn’t match what scripture says and what the Anglican Communion believes if we are part of it.

One way to do the latter is by denying others the forgiveness and grace which we as sinners were given through no merit of our own. Many conservative Christians seem intent to do just that to people of same-sex orientation, or at least those who have not maintained celibacy.

No one can receive the forgiveness for sin by the grace of God through Jesus Christ, if they carrying on sinning. The homosexual argument makes it case assuming same sex unions aren’t sin, the Biblical word of God says they are.

If the Holy Spirit wishes him or her to maintain celibacy, or to change orientation, He will equip him/her with the ability and strength to do so -- it is not for us to demand that of others.

The Holy Spirit reminds us of what Jesus taught (1 John 15) which was faithful man/woman marriage or celibacy (Matt 19, Eph 5, 1 Cor 7) and the same sex unions are error (1 Cor 6, Romans 1) Christians live by the Spirit and not the flesh,
John 3:6 “Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. “
Ephesians 5:16 “So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Sorry your remarks match neither what the word of God says about the Spirit, not about sexual unions.

 

[Texas Lynn]

To Texas Lynn,
Sorry but its not baseless as I have given the scriptures as a base. Your argument is baseless as it just your opinion without evidence.
It proves I have evidence as a base for my argument, and it also proves that while you haven’t you also don’t believe or accept the Biblical base.

No, all you have offered is your oipinion. The scripture you cited proves nothing as you have interpreted it and your interpretation is not based on anything other than a desire to support your position. No scripture supports your position. the assertion otherwise is just that, a mere assertion of a flawed human who is sorefully mistaken in this instance.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Sorry your remarks match neither what the word of God says about the Spirit, not about sexual unions.

The above is a statement of opinion. It is merely the opinion of the poster and meaningless otherwise. The poster possesses no authority whatsoever. In short, his argument amounts to "I am right and you are wrong, bwaahahahaha!"

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Texas Lynn,

No, all you have offered is your oipinion. The scripture you cited proves nothing as you have interpreted it and your interpretation is not based on anything other than a desire to support your position.

As I said your argument is baseless, the scriptures say what they say.

The above is a statement of opinion.

opinion which can be seen to be true according to the Bible.

The poster possesses no authority whatsoever. In short, his argument amounts to "I am right and you are wrong, bwaahahahaha!"

All authority in heaven and earth has been given to Jesus Christ, it is His teaching in the NT I have been showing you.

 

[OllieFranz]

Some progress, at last. At least you are finally admitting that you are not simply quoting the Bible, but passing on "teachings." And sharing opinions you believe to be biblical.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Olliefranz,
Not really Olliefranz, the Bible, that is any recognised version ie NIV, KJV, NKJV, NASB etc, is the benchmark for truth for me and I would say all Chrstians.
You and others seem to be saying this benchmark isnt the truth for various reasons which I dont think are credible.

 

[brightmorningstar]

You know I am here to argue the Biblical case for homosexuality, I didnt expect to be arguing whether the Bible says means what is says.. thats disbelief.

 

[Polycarp1]

BMS, if you had read my post #81 instead of immediately reacting to the first sentence, then picking quotes to kneejerk react to, you'd see the point I was driving for.

As for your "I'm just quoting Scripture, it says what it says" allegation that you don't interpret but others do, let me post one verse without comment, other than that I have held off doing so for some time and am not now doing it as an insult to you.

"Oh, Lucifer, bright star of the morning, how are you fallen!" (Isaiah 14:12)

It would be disingenuous of me to say, as you and others have, "It's just a Bible verse; it speaks for itself." Had I done it as an insult, I would be justly chastized by you and by the moderators. Instead, I'm posting it for one point and one point only:: to show, by horrible example, that even "passages that speak for themselves" carry a bit of the opinion and interpretation of the reader (and often of the translator).

And that's been a part of my point all along. These verses that "say that God's plan for marriage is one man and one woman" -- don't. They say other things that are important in themselves. But the idea that they give a divine command for exclusive heterosexual monogamy is something readers bring to the scripture. In the technical terms, it's eisegesis not exegesis -- reading into, not out of, the text.

 

[Polycarp1]

Oh, and just for the record, nobody is taking the perspective that the Bible does not "say what it says."

Rather, we're saying that sometimes the Bible does not say what Brightmorningstar or Zaac or a few others think that it says.

There really is a difference in those two concepts.

 

[OllieFranz]

Polycarp1 --

Baby steps. BMS has finally seen that he is not just quoting the Bible. We can't expect him to give up his "if you don't see what I see in the verse then you disbelieve" cherished belief that easily. Be patient.

 

[Zaac]

Oh, and just for the record, nobody is taking the perspective that the Bible does not "say what it says."

Rather, we're saying that sometimes the Bible does not say what Brightmorningstar or Zaac or a few others think that it says.

There really is a difference in those two concepts.

It says what it says. Perhaps if folks would deal with what it says instead of looking for angles to support their defense of sin, there wouldn't be such confusion.

Instead yall start these "Did he really say that" and "Jesus never spoke of it" games that do nothing more than point to your disbelief that God's Word is His Word.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Polycarp1,

As for your "I'm just quoting Scripture, it says what it says" allegation

It’s verifiable, open your Bible and see.

"Oh, Lucifer, bright star of the morning, how are you fallen!" (Isaiah 14:12)

as opposed to
Revelation 22:16 “"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star”
I have already explained this.

And that's been a part of my point all along. These verses that "say that God's plan for marriage is one man and one woman" -- don't.

They do. They say what they say.

But the idea that they give a divine command for exclusive heterosexual monogamy is something readers bring to the scripture. In the technical terms, it's eisegesis not exegesis -- reading into, not out of, the text.

Like everything else you have it the wrong way round, its exegesis to interpret what the text says, its eisegesis when ones own ideas are introduced into the text. The text says what it says.

Rather, we're saying that sometimes the Bible does not say what Brightmorningstar or Zaac or a few others think that it says.

When the Bible is quoted all can see what it says.
I suggest all can see those who don’t want it to say what it says use the argument you are making. Its called disbelief.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Olliefranz,
The Bible says what it says, we have quoted it. Our interpretion is that what we have quoted means what it says, thats why we have quoted it.
What you and Polycarp1 appear to be saying is it doesnt say what it says. What you call interpretation we call disbelief.

 

[Zaac]

To Olliefranz,
The Bible says what it says, we have quoted it. Our interpretion is that what we have quoted means what it says, thats why we have quoted it.
What you and Polycarp1 appear to be saying is it doesnt say what it says. What you call interpretation we call disbelief.

 

[Texas Lynn]

To Texas Lynn,
As I said your argument is baseless, the scriptures say what they say.

In your opinion.

opinion which can be seen to be true according to the Bible.

In your opinion.

All authority in heaven and earth has been given to Jesus Christ, it is His teaching in the NT I have been showing you.

The meaning of which as you see it is your opinion. You as an individual have no authority whatsoever.

 

[Texas Lynn]

You know I am here to argue the Biblical case for homosexuality, I didnt expect to be arguing whether the Bible says means what is says.. thats disbelief.

The "disbelief" is directed toward you, not the Bible. when you say "the Bible means what it says"' ans assert there is a "Biblical case" foir your position, this is your opinion. I believe you are uninformed. That is no slam against you and certainly not one against the Bible.