Slavery, a Guide

[cvanwey]

there is an explicit instruction to prevent people being unwillingly enslaved and then there are laws about how people who go willingly into service are to be treated.

Why do you continue not to consider what I addressed prior here? For goofs, let's just concede what you are saying here, entirely --- "That you cannot steel people..." Okay...

You must admit that many were born into slavery. According to the Bible, under 'appropriate' conditions, if you are the offspring of a slave, you are considered the slaver master's property --- for life. Since the Bible states humans may buy slaves, and since we also know that a slave's offspring is considered the slave master's property, wouldn't it be logical to also conclude that a slave master can sell these slaves? The answer is yes, according to the Bible apparently.

And since antebellum slavery practices went on for hundreds of years, were any of these slaves producing offspring? The answer is yes; unless you wish to argue otherwise. Hence, according to the Bible, an antebellum slave master need not steel anyone. He can rightfully buy other slaves, legally; provided such marketed slaves were simply the offspring of a current slave.

Thus, I ask you a follow up question.... Say you were born in 1805... Say your parents are slaves. God deems you an automatic property of the slave master, via the Bible. And say your slave master wishes to sell you to another plantation. Are you kool with that, via God's allowances?

 

[BNR32FAN]

It is not the fact that the Hebrews used to have slaves but that the God of the bible and teh God Christians worship wrote specific instructions for slavery and many of the rules are pretty brutal. If this God exists and inspired the Bible He cannot be good.

What if His commandments concerning slavery were calculated to save as many Gentiles as possible? It’s a small price to pay for eternity in paradise as opposed to their original fate of burning in the lake of fire for all eternity. I bet every one of those Gentile slaves who came to God will thank Him and praise His Holy name for what He did for them.

 

[cvanwey]

What if His commandments concerning slavery were calculated to save as many Gentiles as possible? It’s a small price to pay for eternity in paradise as opposed to their original fate of burning in the lake of fire for all eternity. I bet every one of those Gentile slaves who came to God will thank Him and praise His Holy name for what He did for them.

LOL! I'm sure this is why God endorses 'slavery'.... So some of them will come to Christ.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There are different rules of slavery in the OT for different people, this is a reference for people when talking about this practice. Nowhere in the bible does God say that slavery is wrong. These verses are not the totality of the bible describing slavery and Gods attitude toward the practice but they are the major ones. How can these verse be reconciled with a good and moral god? In summary of the verses below:

1. Hebrew slaves with Hebrew masters can be released after 6 years unless the master "trick" them into staying by supplying them with a wife.

2. All slaves are property and considered money just like an ox.

3. Only Hebrew slaves are to be released on the year of Jubilee, not all slaves.

4. All slaves can be beaten but Hebrew slaves cannot be beaten to death.

5. If a male Hebrew rapes a slave he will not be put to death if he gives restitution to God, if he rapes a non-slave he shall be put to death.

6. God says that the Hebrews can buy slaves from the nations around them, give them to their descendants and beat them without penalty. Sounds like American slavery in the 17th and 18th centuries.

1. Male (some female rules mixed in) Hebrew Slaves.

Exodus 21:1-6 ESV

Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. When you buy a Hebrew slave,a]"> he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. Ex 21:1-3.

This is specifically for male Hebrew slaves. It says that male Hebrew slaves can be purchased to serve for six years, then released without any compensation. This mentions purchasing as property and that they are not free to leave since after 6 years they go free. It also sets rules for a wife of the male Hebrew slave. She will go free with him if he was married when he was purchased. It goes on to say:

If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever. Ex 21:4-6.

If a purchased Hebrew slave is married after he is purchased the wife and the children are not his but his masters. If the slave wants to leave after six years he must go alone. If he loves his wife and children then he must submit to being a slave forever since his wife and kids are the masters forever. So if a master wants to keep his male Hebrew slave he can “trick” him by supplying him a wife and hoping he wants to stay with her. But notice if the master supplies his male Hebrew slave with a wife, the wife and children are his slaves forever, the master gets new slaves for free even if the male Hebrew slave leaves.

Exodus 21:16 ESV

“Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.

This says that if a Hebrew steals a Hebrew man (not a woman) and sells him, he shall be executed along with the purchaser. This section is still talking about Hebrew men since in Leviticus 25 God instructs them that they can steal men from surrounding nations. We will get to that later.

Exodus 21:20-21

When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

The is still talking about Hebrew slaves since beating them is allowed in Leviticus 25 if they are not Hebrew. So a master can beat a slave pretty severely but just not to death. According to this a master can beat his slave pretty bad (not in the eye or tooth as we will see later) as long as the slaves does not die within two days. If the slave dies as a result after two days it seem that the master has no repercussions. It also explicitly states the slave (a real person) is the masters money or property, not a person, and that is the reason given why no punishment is required by God.

Exodus 21:26-27 ESV

When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.

So no master can beat the eyes or teeth of male or female Hebrew slaves. The punishment is only that the slave has to go free. Notice the master can beat them other places such as the back of their heads, back, bottom of feet etc. with no penalty.

Exodus 21:28-32 ESV

When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten, but the owner of the ox shall not be liable. But if the ox has been accustomed to gore in the past, and its owner has been warned but has not kept it in, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned, and its owner also shall be put to death. If a ransom is imposed on him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is imposed on him. If it gores a man's son or daughter, he shall be dealt with according to this same rule. Ex 21:28-31

This seems reasonable, basically if you know your ox will kill people and you do nothing about it the owner and ox are executed. This is only talking about a Hebrew person. What if the person the ox kills is a slave?

If the ox gores a slave, male or female, the owner shall give to their master thirty shekelse of silver, and the ox shall be stoned. Ex 21:32

Different rules. The ox owner does not die but has to pay the owner for the slave. This is because the slave is considered property as is said in Ex 21:21. Restitution is on order just as if he destroyed another person’s ox. The slave is not a person but property just like an ox as seen with the next verses:

Exodus 21:33-36 ESV

“When a man opens a pit, or when a man digs a pit and does not cover it, and an ox or a donkey falls into it, the owner of the pit shall make restoration. He shall give money to its owner, and the dead beast shall be his.

“When one man's ox butts another's, so that it dies, then they shall sell the live ox and share its price, and the dead beast also they shall share. Or if it is known that the ox has been accustomed to gore in the past, and its owner has not kept it in, he shall repay ox for ox, and the dead beast shall be his.

In these situations an ox is killed by someone that is not the owner. The owner is given money to satisfy the death of his ox as restitution. Just like when an ox kills a slave as shown above. There is no difference between an ox and a slave to God.


Lev 25:39-42 ESV

“If your brother becomes poor beside you and sells himself to you, you shall not make him serve as a slave: he shall be with you as a hired worker and as a sojourner. He shall serve with you until the year of the jubilee. Then he shall go out from you, he and his children with him, and go back to his own clan and return to the possession of his fathers. For they are my servants,e]">[e] whom I brought out of the land of Egypt; they shall not be sold as slaves. You shall not rule over him ruthlessly but shall fear your God. Lev 25:39-43

God is talking about Hebrew’s here. You shall not enslave your brother; however, in Exodus 21 God has rules for owning Hebrew male slaves. Maybe God is talking about an actual brother. Notice here that is only Hebrew male slaves that are released at the year of jubilee, not all slaves.

Lev 25:47-55 ESV

“If a stranger or sojourner with you becomes rich, and your brother beside him becomes poor and sells himself to the stranger or sojourner with you or to a member of the stranger's clan then after he is sold he may be redeemed. Lev 25:47-49

God makes provision for Hebrews enslaved to non-Hebrews to be set free. God is playing favorites.

One of his brothers may redeem him, or his uncle or his cousin may redeem him, or a close relative from his clan may redeem him. Or if he grows rich he may redeem himself. He shall calculate with his buyer from the year when he sold himself to him until the year of jubilee, and the price of his sale shall vary with the number of years. The time he was with his owner shall be rated as the time of a hired worker. If there are still many years left, he shall pay proportionately for his redemption some of his sale price. If there remain but a few years until the year of jubilee, he shall calculate and pay for his redemption in proportion to his years of service. He shall treat him as a worker hired year by year. He shall not rule ruthlessly over him in your sight. Lev 25:48-53

Here God is saying a Hebrew slave with a non-Hebrew master can be redeemed and sets rules for compensation.

And if he is not redeemed by these means, then he and his children with him shall be released in the year of jubilee. For it is to me that the people of Israel are servants. They are my servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. Lev 25:54-55

Here it states that only Hebrew slaves with non-Hebrew masters can be released on the year of jubilee. Non Hebrew slaves apparently do not need to be released.

2. Female Hebrew Slaves.

Exodus 21:7-11 ESV

“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. Ex 21:1

Here a Hebrew father can sell his Hebrew daughter to another as a wife. The woman has no say and does not have to agree or volunteer.

If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. Ex 21:8

If the master is not pleased with her as a wife, then the master must not sell her to foreigners and must redeem her. Notice she has no choice in the matter at all, she is a purchased slave to the master. The master has another option if he is not pleased with her as a wife:

If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. Ex 21:9

The Master does not have to set her free if he designates her for his son. Then he can treat her like a daughter, see Ex 21:1, he can then sell her to others and get compensation since she is to be treated like a daughter. This seems to be another loophole to setting a slave free. If the master also does not designate the female Hebrew slave to his son then:

If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money. Ex 21:10-11

So if the master wants a different wife and does not have a son then she must be treated as the new wife and set free with no compensation. But notice the woman is the master’s slave and property to do with as he wishes.

Lev 19:20-22 ESV

“If a man lies sexually with a woman who is a slave, assigned to another man and not yet ransomed or given her freedom, a distinction shall be made. Lev 19:20

This is talking about Hebrew slaves because it says the woman is not yet set free. Only Hebrew women slaves can be set free by Gods rules.

They shall not be put to death, because she was not free;… Lev 19:20

The sin must be rape here, not consensual because the penalty is death. So if a Hebrew female slave is raped the rapist is not to be put to death. If a free Hebrew woman is raped the rapist will be put to death as stated in other laws.

but he shall bring his compensation to the Lord, to the entrance of the tent of meeting, a ram for a guilt offering. And the priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the guilt offering before the Lord for his sin that he has committed, and he shall be forgiven for the sin that he has committed. Lev 19:21-22

If a man rapes a Hebrew female slave then the man can pay restitution to God and go on with his life. As long as a man has plenty of money he can rape as many Hebrew female slaves as he wants without further penalty.

3. All Slaves

Lev 22:10-11 ESV

A lay person shall not eat of a holy thing; no foreign guest of the priest or hired worker shall eat of a holy thing, but if a priest buys a slave as his property for money, the slave may eat of it, and anyone born in his house may eat of his food.

Here God points out again that slaves are the master’s property and money.

4. Non-Hebrew Slaves

Lev 25: 44-46 ESV

As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.

Here the Hebrews can buy slaves from the nations and clans around as well as strangers (non Hebrews) that were born in the land. God says here again the slaves are the master’s property. It also says that non Hebrew slaves can be inherited by descendants of the master, just like property or as God uses as possessions. So God thinks of non Hebrew slaves as possessions and to be treated by property.

Also notice that it says that Hebrew slaves are not to be treated ruthlessly. In Exodus it says that Hebrew slaves can be beaten as has already been discussed. So God must not think beating slaves severely as long as they don’t die within a couple days is not ruthless.

“Masters, grant to your slaves justice and fairness, knowing that you too have a Master in heaven. Devote yourselves to prayer, keeping alert in it with an attitude of thanksgiving; praying at the same time for us as well, that God will open up to us a door for the word, so that we may speak forth the mystery of Christ, for which I have also been imprisoned; that I may make it clear in the way I ought to speak. Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity. Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭4:1-6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬


“Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ; not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. With good will render service, as to the Lord, and not to men, knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free. And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭6:5-9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

LOL! I'm sure this is why God endorses 'slavery'.... So some of them will come to Christ.

“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬


“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

LOL! I'm sure this is why God endorses 'slavery'.... So some of them will come to Christ.

Do you have a better plan than the omniscient and omnipresent God on how to save as many as possible?

 

[cvanwey]

“Masters, grant to your slaves justice and fairness, knowing that you too have a Master in heaven. Devote yourselves to prayer, keeping alert in it with an attitude of thanksgiving; praying at the same time for us as well, that God will open up to us a door for the word, so that we may speak forth the mystery of Christ, for which I have also been imprisoned; that I may make it clear in the way I ought to speak. Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity. Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭4:1-6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

This has already been addressed. What does God constitute as 'justice and fairness?' God tells the slaves:

"22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters"

Follow up question... If a slave is deemed disobedient any anything, and the slave master should decide to beat his slave, for direct disobedience, is God okay with this?

Thus, what is just and fair, is that the slave must submit tho their master in everything. Now, I already know what you might want to now argue.... (Paraphrased) - "Well, God doesn't really mean anything." Okay, sure, let's go with this...

However,, say you are a slave.... The slave master tells you that you must work 18 hour a day, and your quota is this or that. And say, once in a while, you fail to fill that quota. Well, you disobeyed your slave master, since your quota was likely based upon a slave's human ability to achieve a specific quota. Now, the slave master deems 100 lashes to your back. You do not die from these lashes. Is God okay? Is this 'just and fair'? I'll answer preemptively, for you. The answer looks to be [yes], via Exodus 21:20-21. Why? Because you are his property...

 

[cvanwey]

.

 

[cvanwey]

Do you have a better plan than the omniscient and omnipresent God on how to save as many as possible?

God does not even state THIS was His plan. This is your assumption entirely.

Why does God allow slavery? Does He even say?

 

[BNR32FAN]

God does not even state THIS was His plan. This is your assumption entirely.

Why does God allow slavery? Does He even say?

But that is His goal, to save as many as possible. I already provided evidence of that in 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9. See what your doing is trying to dismiss any evidence that might prove you wrong instead of seeing how the evidence can support God’s goodness because, let’s face it your not interested in trying to prove His goodness. You have an agenda that is set against God. So you can see all evidence that supports your position but your completely blinded when it comes to see the evidence of the opposing side.

 

[cvanwey]

But that is His goal, to save as many as possible.

He can save anyone He wants. He's God. He is the judge and the jury. We do not decide whom is saved, He does.

I already provided evidence of that in 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9.

Playing Texas sharpshooter with Biblical Verse does not warrant your case. If I read down, just a bit further, 1 Timothy 2 also speaks about telling women to be quiet, and to not have authority over men. Does telling women to be quiet, and more, persuade women to more-so come to God as well? I sincerely doubt it... You are implying that every instruction, which God asserts, is to more-so bring people to Christ. This seems to be pure nonsense, thus far.

Neither Verse is speaking about slavery at all, and/or why He allows slavery. You are instead 'shoehorning' your own personal (hand picked) Verses, to make your own narrative "fit". As @Silly Uncle Wayne had already alluded to prior... You can piece the Bible together to support virtually any argument you want to raise forth.

However, we must read each passage, in full context.

See what your doing is trying to dismiss any evidence that might prove you wrong instead of seeing how the evidence can support God’s goodness because, let’s face it your not interested in trying to prove His goodness.

Then this must mean you think allowing lifetime slavery, treating slaves as lifetime property, and telling slave masters they are not to be punished for beating their slaves is 'good'???

You have an agenda that is set against God. So you can see all evidence that supports your position but your completely blinded when it comes to see the evidence of the opposing side.

You are incorrect. IF God exists, I contest He did not author such Verse(s).

Your agenda, is likely that you must support that He inspired this Verse. Because if you agree with me, that it's likely there are Biblical passages, for which God did not inspire, then we open up a huge can of worms; for which you would likely not want to address

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Which means that it is OK then? (I'm just following the same line of reasoning that atheists here are presenting every time I say that Christianity cannot be used to encourage slavery)

I would say the ten commitments do not allow for any form of slavery. Slavery would violate empathy, ethical development, peace and social justice. I can make this claim. You cannot since the bible says you can own other people as property.

You've just made my point for me! I've spent a lot of time trying to tell you that the Hebrew idea of people as property is not what Hebrew slavery is about and you tell me it is. Who is supporting the notion that the Bible supports slavery and who is opposing it?

It actually says people can be owned as property and can be handed down etc. Your denial of this does not make the words go away.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Imagine for a moment Mr Gullible is surfing through these threads. He reads Cvanwey's post above and concludes that the Bible says slavery is acceptable so he starts a campaign to restart slavery.

It wasn't because he read that for himself and it wasn't because any Christian told it to him. It was because an atheist thought that it was true and wanted everyone else to agree with him on the matter.

I would hope that you would much rather Mr Gullible read my post above where I indicate that Bible does not support slavery and go away and continue in that thought, and yet so far from your responses to my post this point has not sunken in:

The only people saying that the Bible supports enslavement of people today are non-Christians.

Do you think owning other people as property can be moral.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Do you think owning other people as property can be moral.

I don't know why you are still asking this. Surely I have said before now that I don't think it is moral.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

What if His commandments concerning slavery were calculated to save as many Gentiles as possible? It’s a small price to pay for eternity in paradise as opposed to their original fate of burning in the lake of fire for all eternity. I bet every one of those Gentile slaves who came to God will thank Him and praise His Holy name for what He did for them.

Could God not come up with a plan to save gentiles without using immoral acts such as slavery? If you believe this you are believing that God chose to save people through slavery over other possible ways to save them since not all people are saved through slavery.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

“Masters, grant to your slaves justice and fairness, knowing that you too have a Master in heaven. Devote yourselves to prayer, keeping alert in it with an attitude of thanksgiving; praying at the same time for us as well, that God will open up to us a door for the word, so that we may speak forth the mystery of Christ, for which I have also been imprisoned; that I may make it clear in the way I ought to speak. Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity. Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭4:1-6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬


“Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ; not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. With good will render service, as to the Lord, and not to men, knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free. And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭6:5-9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Just quoting scripture is not an answer. Can you explain what you think these verses mean and apply to the topic?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I don't know why you are still asking this. Surely I have said before now that I don't think it is moral.

Then why are you defending this from the bible? The Bible actually says that slaves are property.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Then why are you defending this from the bible? The Bible actually says that slaves are property.

I'm not defending this from the Bible. I'm denying that is what it is proposing.

 

[Larniavc]

I'm not defending this from the Bible. I'm denying that is what it is proposing.

You're totally doing that.

 

[cvanwey]

I don't know why you are still asking this. Surely I have said before now that I don't think it is moral.

So you disagree with God. God thinks owning humans is fine. Which-is-to-mean, God deems it "moral". Otherwise, He would either not weigh in on the topic of slavery at all, for which you could argue He does not like (by default). Or, God would express His dislike.

So now what? This must mean your opinion is wrong. That's what.

This is likely one of @Clizby WampusCat 's points....