Russian media attitudes towards war on Ukraine (Orthodox-related)

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archer75

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You know, trying to understand the enemy could better equip us to prevent/avoid such things in the future, right? I mean, you get that there are perfectly good reasons to seek to understand, beyond a desire to justify and dimiss, right?
That is certainly true, although in this instance, lies fed to the mass of the Russian population by its own government over the last 20+ years are a huge part of why there is any support for the attempted destruction of Ukraine at all. However, some (some!) do not wish to consider the possibility that, even in relation to its own people, the Russian government has been acting in bad faith for a long time.
 
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ArmyMatt

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You know, trying to understand the enemy could better equip us to prevent/avoid such things in the future, right? I mean, you get that there are perfectly good reasons to seek to understand, beyond a desire to justify and dimiss, right?

as a soldier….yes.
 
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RT is Russian state propaganda, yes. And can you provide a source for the Nazis threatening Zelensky? Also, I had to stifle a chuckle when you commented on Russian kindness in avoiding damaging the place. Have you not seen the awesome scope of damage, ruble, and breathtaking destruction Russia has inflicted on these poor folks? Have you not seen the footage, or do you subscribe to the “it’s all an elaborate hoax” approach? Are you suggesting the American, British, Australian, Greek, and other journalists conspired to take phony pictures of dead Ukrainians with their hands tied behind their backs? It’s all photoshopped? World conspiracy to destroy Holy Russia?

Dot, I think you need to move to Russia. You’ve made a case that America and the West are vial devils devoid of good. If you truly believe Russia is the shining hope of Christendom, I’d buy a ticket and take the boys!
That's the story you're getting. From the independent journalists and commentators from Greece, UK, and America, say differently. If Russia wanted to totally destroy Ukraine, it would've done it immediately when they invaded. They were careful where it set its army. But the more Zelensky resists agreeing to being neutral (though he doesn't have a choice because the Nazis in his government said they'll hang him by the neck until he's dead if he doesn't keep his army fighting a losing battle. The Nazis don't care about every Ukrainian being killed. They have their own agenda for Ukraine) -- it's only going to hurt the Ukrainians. And our government and other Western governments continue to stoke the fire, although some seem to be backing down a bit in Europe for obvious reasons.

Maybe I should post alternative news, since there's only one side here, which makes for a lopsided and not fully balanced story.
 
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I truly hope TAW has no visitors for a while. If I were considering Holy Orthodoxy right now, and I came in here seeing wacky COVID conspiracies, support of a mass-murderer and justifying a massive invasion with a ridiculous “They’re all Nazis” justification, and seeing stupid, petty quibbling about words like “boyfriend” and “terrorism” when the world is burning, I’d think Orthodox folks are nutcases! TAW needs more of a balanced approach. Right now it seems like an anti-American I Hate The West conspiracy club.

To all visitors….RUN!!
 
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archer75

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The notion that these cities aren't really being bombed or destroyed is really not tenable, unless you accept that just about the entire world is in a conspiracy against Russia. There are plenty of satellite images that show exactly what is happening and what has happened.

The main takes seem to be:

-it's the US's fault, the US made Putin do this (really very familiar talk from the domestic violence sphere--"You must have provoked him by considering seeing someone else!")
-Putin / RF didn't really do anything objectionable, Ukrainian Nazis are destroying Ukraine and don't care if everyone dies, because they want to rule Ukraine (unclear who exactly they will be ruling if everyone is dead)
-Ukraine is all-Nazi and they hate Russians and everyone who speaks Russian, so why should we sympathize with them (why then these Russian-language hating Nazis elected a Russian-speaking Jew to be their head of state, hard to guess).

Of these takes, the first two are simply not consonant with reality and will require bigger and bigger doses of delusion to sustain as time goes on.

The first is at least sort of, or possibly, consonant with reality, although I'm surprised to see it on TAW. Whenever a sexual sin (or imagined sexual sin) comes up, the sin is to be repented of and not repeated (if possible). When it comes to murder and rape, some prefer to justify those who commit the actions, saying that they were "forced" into doing it. No repentance necessary.
 
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archer75

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Dorothea

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Dorothea, it is certainly true that many people have bought into lies from various sources -- I am among them and have had to be corrected more than once.

For the record, I don't read CNN about the war against Ukraine, or any other such sources. I read (mostly) Russian propaganda media and the Telegram channels for people in the cities under attack. I have family and family friends in Ukraine (all people who identify as culturally Russian, and speak Russian as their primary language), and have friends of friends in eastern Ukraine, Russians from Russia who moved to "Nazi" Ukraine for work, reported no harassment by Nazis, and said that the only problem was when the RF started bombing their cities.

For a while I followed a channel for people in bomb shelters (also mostly Russian-speaking people) in Mariupol, but I had to stop because I was losing my mind reading all the messages where people were begging for information about their children, grandparents, siblings, etc

I don't expect my saying that to make you believe what I say is true, but I say it just to be clear that I'm not on here spouting CNN's line because I love CNN so much. I actively hate CNN and think it's an embarrassment at best. I get my news on this as directly as possible, and I really have little idea what the English media are reporting.
Thanks for your kind, civil response, archer. I don't doubt your friends' experiences. My good friend from church was in Ukraine in 2000, and was harassed literally by neo-Nazis there, following her and her friend around. They thought she was a Jew, and when she said she was Greek Orthodox, they didn't believe her. She said it was pretty frightening.

What I'm saying is there are stories on both sides. It's not one-sided. Anyone with a fraction of objectivity would agree and know this. That's all I'm saying. There's another side. It's not all bad or all good on one side or the other. Not speaking about the invasion, which I think was provoked by many years of instigating by the US and NATO, but just the things happening in this war. There are good and bad people within it. That's real life.

Thanks again. :)
 
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Dorothea

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archer75

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I think that's a matter of opinion. In any case, I'll start sharing news reports from the other side so this place is more balanced.

This journalists is echoing what I'd said earlier in one of these threads.

Russia Can Get In Line: Investigate US Atrocities First - Antiwar.com Blog
It is certainly true that there are many atrocities attributed to US forces that SHOULD be investigated.

But that doesn't say anything about the topic at hand, does it? That the US has done things that are grievously wrong isn't an excuse for Putin. Although the original statment on his site (not sure if it's still there) said as much: the US gets to do it, why can't I?

I learned from the OC that whataboutism isn't fair play. Many people on here have referred to Russia as an "Orthodox country." Putin tries to give the impression that he cares about Orthodoxy. Yet, there's not much one can say from an Orthodox POV to justify this.

I take your point about your friend who was harassed, but people are harassed in the US by Neo-Nazis, too. That's far from saying that the government and people are pure Nazi and need to be subjected to a generation of denazification.
 
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Dorothea

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Ray McGovern: Corporate Media Deploys the Big Guns on Ukraine - Antiwar.com Blog

A very informative historical dig into all of this with regard to Europe, US, Russia, and Ukraine. Except of linked article below this:

It is hard to fathom the depths of our time, the terrible wars and the confounding information that whizzes by without much wisdom.

Certainties that flood the airwaves and the internet are easy to come by, but are they derived from an honest assessment of the war in Ukraine and the sanctions against Russian banks (part of a broader United States sanctions policy that now afflicts approximately thirty countries)?

Do they acknowledge the horrific reality of hunger that has increased due to this war and the sanctions?

It appears that many of the “certainties” are caught up in the “Cold War mentality,” which views humanity as irreversibly divided on two opposing sides. However, this is not the case; most countries are struggling to craft a non-aligned approach to the U.S.-imposed “new Cold War.” Russia’s conflict with Ukraine is a symptom of broader geopolitical battles that have been waged over decades.

On March 26, U.S. President Joe Biden defined some certainties from his perspective at the Royal Castle in Warsaw, calling the war in Ukraine “a battle between democracy and autocracy, between liberty and repression, between a rules-based order and one governed by brute force.”

These binaries are wholly a fantasy of the White House, whose attitude towards “rules-based order” is not rooted in the U.N. Charter but in “rules” that the U.S. pronounces. Biden’s antinomies culminated in one policy objective: “For God’s sake, this man cannot remain in power,” he said, meaning Russia’s President Vladimir Putin.

The narrowness of Biden’s approach to the conflict in Ukraine has led to a public call for regime change in Russia, a country of 146 million people whose government possesses 6,255 nuclear warheads. With the U.S.’s violent history of controlling leadership in several countries, reckless statements about regime change cannot go unanswered. They must be universally contested.

The principal axis of Russia’s war is not actually Ukraine, though it bears the brunt of it today. It is whether Europe can be permitted to forge projects independently of the U.S. and its North Atlantic agenda.

The U.S. strategy was not entirely successful. European countries could see that there was no effective substitute for both Russian energy and Chinese investment. Banning Huawei’s telecommunications tools and preventing NordStream 2 from certification would only hurt the European people. This was clear.

Ukraine: The Broader Geopolitical Conflict

Excerpt from another article linked below this:

Noting that US academics and policy makers don’t believe NATO’s designs on Ukraine represent an existential threat to Russia, Mearsheimer is as blunt as his courteous mien permits. "What people in Washington believe is irrelevant. What matters is what Russia believes." He rejects the "mainstream" view that Putin’s Russia is motivated by expansionist aims, and asks the savants in Washington to put concrete evidence behind their claims. Moreover, "There is no evidence in what Putin has said that he wants to make Ukraine part of Russia," Mearsheimer adds.

So who are these professors, pundits, and politicians who have convinced most Americans that "we have to fight the Russians there so we don’t have to fight them here"?

Whether out of professional courtesy or lack of time, Mearsheimer did not spell this out. As a decades-long practitioner of Russian analysis, however, I am astonished at what passes for analysis of Russia in this day and age. It is as though the Soviet Union never fell apart and that KGB rascal Putin is still trying to take over the world.

The following is what I might call Exhibit A, courtesy of the New York Times, Putin Has the US Right Where He Wants It by Fiona Hill:

The West’s muted reactions to both the 2008 and 2014 invasions emboldened Mr. Putin. This time, Mr. Putin’s aim is bigger than closing NATO’s "open door" to Ukraine and taking more territory – he wants to evict the United States from Europe. As he might put it: "Goodbye, America. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out."

Mearsheimer: Russia Sees 'Existential Threat,' Must Win - Antiwar.com Original

A few to read over and more to come.
 
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Dorothea

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Excerpt:

NBC News has a report out citing multiple anonymous U.S. officials, humorously titled “In a break with the past, U.S. is using intel to fight an info war with Russia, even when the intel isn’t rock solid.“

The officials say the Biden administration has been rapidly pushing out “intelligence” about Moscow’s plans in Ukraine that is “low-confidence” or “based more on analysis than hard evidence” or even just plain false, in order to fight an information war against Russian President Vladimir Putin.

The report says that toward this end the U.S. government has deliberately circulated false or poorly evidenced claims about impending chemical weapons attacks, about Russian plans to orchestrate a false flag attack in the Donbass to justify an invasion, about Putin’s advisers misinforming him and about Russia seeking arms supplies from China.

Excerpt, emphasis mine:

“It was an attention-grabbing assertion that made headlines around the world: U.S. officials said they had indications suggesting Russia might be preparing to use chemical agents in Ukraine.

President Joe Biden later said it publicly. But three U.S. officials told NBC News this week there is no evidence Russia has brought any chemical weapons near Ukraine. They said the U.S. released the information to deter Russia from using the banned munitions.

It’s one of a string of examples of the Biden administration’s breaking with recent precedent by deploying declassified intelligence as part of an information war against Russia. The administration has done so even when the intelligence wasn’t rock solid, officials said, to keep Russian President Vladimir Putin off balance.”

So, they lied. They may hold that they lied for a noble reason, but they lied. They knowingly circulated information they had no reason to believe was true, and that lie was amplified by all the most influential media outlets in the western world.

Another example of the Biden administration releasing a false narrative as part of its “information war”:

“Likewise, a charge that Russia had turned to China for potential military help lacked hard evidence, a European official and two U.S. officials said.

The U.S. officials said there are no indications China is considering providing weapons to Russia. The Biden administration put that out as a warning to China not to do so, they said.”

On the empire’s claim last week that Putin is being misled by his advisers because they are afraid of telling him the truth, NBC reports that this assessment “wasn’t conclusive — based more on analysis than hard evidence.”

Caitlin Johnstone: Defending the Lies of Psychological War
 
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tapi

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Let us hear the take of the clerics (from a petition of over 200 priests) of UOC-MP, the vast majority of them Russian-speaking Ukrainians, who are right there, on the ground:

"On February 24, 2022, Russian troops invaded the territory of the sovereign Ukrainian state without declaring war. The military aggression has been going on for more than a month. Russian troops are systematically destroying military infrastructure and residential areas, civilian enterprises, schools, hospitals, theaters, and so on. The Ukrainian economy is suffering heavy losses. But we are most saddened that thousands of civilians have already died during the war. The actions of the Russian army around Kharkiv, Chernihiv, Akhtyrka, Hostomel, Vorzel and especially Mariupol and Bucha have obvious signs of the genocide against the Ukrainian people and cause indignation around the world....

We are witnessing the brutal actions of the Russian army against the Ukrainian people, which are approved by Patriarch Kirill. As pastors of the Church, and simply as Christians, we have always been, are and will always stay with our people, those who suffer and need help. We fully support the Ukrainian state authorities and the Armed Forces of Ukraine in their fight against the aggressor."

About 200 priests of the UOC-MP demand International Ecclesiastical Tribunal for Kirill - RISU
 
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Dorothea

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It is certainly true that there are many atrocities attributed to US forces that SHOULD be investigated.

But that doesn't say anything about the topic at hand, does it? That the US has done things that are grievously wrong isn't an excuse for Putin. Although the original statment on his site (not sure if it's still there) said as much: the US gets to do it, why can't I?

I learned from the OC that whataboutism isn't fair play. Many people on here have referred to Russia as an "Orthodox country." Putin tries to give the impression that he cares about Orthodoxy. Yet, there's not much one can say from an Orthodox POV to justify this.

I take your point about your friend who was harassed, but people are harassed in the US by Neo-Nazis, too. That's far from saying that the government and people are pure Nazi and need to be subjected to a generation of denazification.
Most Ukrainian citizens aren't Nazis. I never said they were, and not all of the Ukrainian government is. Some Nazis already existed there, but many of them were installed via the 2014 coup, with the assistance, as usual, of our CIA operatives.

To me, I feel it would be hypocritical of me to be going on about what other countries do wrong when my own has done plenty. Clean out our own house first. And, as I've said, the invasion wasn't right. However, I understand why it happened. You can understand the stakes and why something happened without thinking the action was right.

Imo, there is more to this than Putin and the invasion. A lot more.
 
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Dorothea

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You've been here for years, and you're far more active than the person you're referring to, who only pops in to abuse people on controversial issues. We can all just put that person on ignore, if need be.
Thank you, Platina. :)
 
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Dorothea

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Per the article by Lauria:

"(Once again the Pentagon is dampening the war hysteria, saying it can’t confirm or deny Russia was responsible.)"


Yeah. Because it's the Pentagon that has to send out our troops to destruction if this goes nuclear. Ironically, that entity is the only level-headed one in our government at this point.
 
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Dorothea

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RT is Russian state propaganda, yes. And can you provide a source for the Nazis threatening Zelensky? Also, I had to stifle a chuckle when you commented on Russian kindness in avoiding damaging the place. Have you not seen the awesome scope of damage, ruble, and breathtaking destruction Russia has inflicted on these poor folks? Have you not seen the footage, or do you subscribe to the “it’s all an elaborate hoax” approach? Are you suggesting the American, British, Australian, Greek, and other journalists conspired to take phony pictures of dead Ukrainians with their hands tied behind their backs? It’s all photoshopped? World conspiracy to destroy Holy Russia?

Dot, I think you need to move to Russia. You’ve made a case that America and the West are vial devils devoid of good. If you truly believe Russia is the shining hope of Christendom, I’d buy a ticket and take the boys!
Should I move to all the countries that I don't think are threats to ours? That's just ridiculous. I will echo what George Galloway said when a caller said the same thing to him. He said he wants his country to be better. That's the same for me. I expect better of America. It's that simple.

Again, I never said ANY COUNTRY is perfect or "shining hope of Christendom". It's what you have read erroneously in my rebuttals because it doesn't follow yours and others view of the world. The issue is that I try and look at both sides of this conflict and others in the past as well as other events in our history. I work to be objective and open that I don't know everything. That there are two sides (sometimes three sides) to a story. And all sides should be considered because all of them are valid in this case.
 
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Dorothea

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I truly hope TAW has no visitors for a while. If I were considering Holy Orthodoxy right now, and I came in here seeing wacky COVID conspiracies, support of a mass-murderer and justifying a massive invasion with a ridiculous “They’re all Nazis” justification, and seeing stupid, petty quibbling about words like “boyfriend” and “terrorism” when the world is burning, I’d think Orthodox folks are nutcases! TAW needs more of a balanced approach. Right now it seems like an anti-American I Hate The West conspiracy club.

To all visitors….RUN!!
hyperbole and insults to those with judicial and critical thinking minds.
 
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