Repentance?

[Im_A]

[Disclaimer On]this is going to be a long post because i want to fully explain why i'm asking the questions and hopefully anyone that is gracious enough to respond reads it all before responding. this seems to be the fitting forum for this.

my intentions here are not to demean the faith, or believers or any perception of a god that you all have, or iow, my intentions are not to blaspheme and my intentions are not to bait or flame anyone.

i'm atheist and was a Christian from the age of 12 till well officially this year, but the deconversion process began 4 years ago. the way i'm explaining my question is all based upon what i see as hypotheticals and the perceptions that i see with the Bible and with the definitions of God that have been historically known as the popular way of defining attributes of God. i am secular and atheist, so i hold no personal convictions with views that may be shared. i'm using hypotheticals here in order to explain my "exploring of the Christian faith with Christians".
[Dislcaimer Off]

i'm confused with how the Bible leads us to repentance or anything. yes, i do believe there are things in the Bible, as all other religious books that lead us to inspiration to change our actions and such but as to an actual real, life changing working wonder, i don't see how.

so i was wanting to know how the Christians view repentance, what it is is, salvation and such.

the reason why i'm asking is this.
looking back through the Bible, it seems one could theorize that we see God repenting for what He created. i say this because:
1. Adam and Eve were created by a being who is perfect, thus it is good, or a perfect creation. if they were perfect, there would be no reason to have a tree in the garden of eden, to where they had to make a choice. perfection doesn't have the ability to make a choice. it just is. so if a God, all-knowing, all-powerful created these beings, why would God also plant the tree in the garden? one could take it further and ask, well why did God create Lucifer if God already knew the Lucifer would rebel against Him? that's not the point for this discussion.
2. we see constantly in the Bible that the people of God, and God interveneing. it would seem to most that we see God trying to offer humanity time and time the ability to repent and change from that very action that caused all the problems. we read how the Jewish people offered sacrifices unto the Lord, we see the passion on the cross, the final sacrifice made, and then even with the 2nd coming of Christ and all that entails and promises, from what i see, a complete destruction of the former, and a birth of renewal, or maybe one could argue, the way it was intended to be.
now i'm not meaning to be demeaning here, but this perception from reading the Bible seems tremendously flawed. we were a being created for the pleasurement of a god. we had no choice in our being created. sure we have choices to make after creation but that stain if you will will still be on us. so if one would believe that there is a flaw to our character at human nature which would have to start at birth, who would be the one to blame...God or the human being? now i believe that people are the ones to blame for their problems and mistakes most of the time, but with the idea of repentance in accordance to God because we are a sinful being, this is where i start coming to a different conclusion. i didn't make myself. i came into existence with this supposed problem if you will. so if we are to believe that there is a creator, wouldn't the responsibility for the stain being on our character and human nature as many believers be, be on the head of the Almighty?

so with all this said, this idea of eternal repentance to be accepted to God, seems a bit nonsensical. it makes sense why people still sin after believeing. you can't fix a problem that you didn't create and what we see in the Bible as the means that God has offered hasn't done anything as to absolve the problem entirely. the people of the Bible, still "sinned" reluctantly while God gave them many ways to cleanse themselves. it seems like free-will is God's wild card to cover Himself if you will. i gave you free-will, so its your fault.

so to finally end this long post, which again i apologize, how do you as a Christian repent? i can say, as an atheist, if repentance is merely along the ideas of changing ways we live, then i technically "repent" all the time, because i want to better myself constantly and to be as moral as i can be. but with the idea of repentance, to sin no more with each day we're alive, and in relation to a relationship with God. and what are the affects that you as a believer feel is happening to you as you repent? whether it be physical feelings, emotional feelings, or spiritual stuff, feel free to respond with whatever you can answer with.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

To save space am gonna snip the bits I'd like to respond to, if that's ok?

looking back through the Bible, it seems one could theorize that we see God repenting for what He created. i say this because:

[snipped]

Where do you see God repenting?? I get that you're extrapolating, but that seems really left of centre.

If you're to posit that God is repenting of something (also, what is He repenting of?), who do you imagine He is repenting to? Does that mean you're suggesting there's a higher being that then forgives God?

I don't believe God repents, at all. I see no Biblical indication of that, and I can't see any philospohical support for that. When it comes to the issue of free will and original sin, I think - as unsatisfying as it is - it will always be one of the unanswerable questions. I used to question it a lot (felt God had pretty much stacked the decks) and eventually realised that there's little value in being loved by someone who is forced into it. We demonstrate our love for Him by being willing to lay down our sin, pick up our cross and follow Him. What would it mean to Him if He forced us to love Him? Nothing.

Given how many people choose not to do so, that's an indication of how hard a thing it is to do. But it's done out of love, for Him.

so with all this said, this idea of eternal repentance to be accepted to God, seems a bit nonsensical. it makes sense why people still sin after believeing. you can't fix a problem that you didn't create and what we see in the Bible as the means that God has offered hasn't done anything as to absolve the problem entirely.

Of course He has! He hung our sin on the cross. If we accept His forgiveness, we are absolved. You're speaking to legalism and not acknowledging Grace. It's all about Grace.

the people of the Bible, still "sinned" reluctantly while God gave them many ways to cleanse themselves. it seems like free-will is God's wild card to cover Himself if you will. i gave you free-will, so its your fault.

You make God sound like a passive aggressive petulant child, d00d. Tell me, what need does He have to "cover Himself"? Thing is, if we choose to sin, it is our fault. We are autonomous, and we need to accept responsibility for our actions and behaviour.

You'd have a valid point if only our being perfect earned us salvation. In that case, He would have stacked the decks and made the game unwinnable for us. But we don't earn it, we are given it. So He has no need to cover Himself. He's already folded and given the victory to us. What we then do with it is our choice.

so to finally end this long post, which again i apologize, how do you as a Christian repent? i can say, as an atheist, if repentance is merely along the ideas of changing ways we live, then i technically "repent" all the time, because i want to better myself constantly and to be as moral as i can be. but with the idea of repentance, to sin no more with each day we're alive, and in relation to a relationship with God. and what are the affects that you as a believer feel is happening to you as you repent? whether it be physical feelings, emotional feelings, or spiritual stuff, feel free to respond with whatever you can answer with.

Perhaps that's the difference. Humanism is all about bettering ourselves; Christianity and repentance is all about allowing the Lord to better us. He's the one that makes us new; He's the one that makes us more loving and forgiving. We can't intellectualize ourselves into being better people, regardless of how much we think we can.

Repentance isn't just saying sorry. It's submitting to Him, and acknowledging that we have done wrong in His eyes, and asking Him to make us into the people He created us to be. In repenting, we are made clean and He sees Christ when He looks at us. And it doesn't matter if we need to repent of a million things a million times a day - He will always take us back and continue to heal and change us. But whether we let Him is our choice - free will.

 

[Simple_Mind]

Note: My response to your questions was too long, so I had to split it into two posts.
This is part 1 of my response. See my next post for part 2 of my response.

this is going to be a long post because i want to fully explain why i'm asking the questions and hopefully anyone that is gracious enough to respond reads it all before responding. this seems to be the fitting forum for this.

Thank you for your explanation and the cordial tone of your post.

my intentions here are not to demean the faith, or believers or any perception of a god that you all have, or iow, my intentions are not to blaspheme and my intentions are not to bait or flame anyone.

I appreciate your graciousness.

i'm atheist and was a Christian from the age of 12 till well officially this year, but the deconversion process began 4 years ago.

I would be interested in hearing more about your deconversion process. Feel free to send me a private message at this site.

the way i'm explaining my question is all based upon what i see as hypotheticals and the perceptions that i see with the Bible and with the definitions of God that have been historically known as the popular way of defining attributes of God.

ok

i am secular and atheist,

Strong Atheist? Or Weak Atheist ?

Would your view be different from Agnosticism? (feel free to PM me your responses if you wish)

so i hold no personal convictions with views that may be shared. i'm using hypotheticals here in order to explain my "exploring of the Christian faith with Christians".

Ok

i'm confused with how the Bible leads us to repentance or anything.

The Bible

(a) sets out a moral code / code of ethics, e.g., as codified in the 10 commandments, and

(b) provides us examples of the lives of people who followed the moral code, sometimes better than at other times, and

(c) provides us examples of individuals who failed to live by the moral law, and who then repented, and

(d) encourages us to live by that moral law.

We, as individuals, can read all of these (above) and still choose to go our own way. Alternatively, we could be touched by what we read, and be drawn to living lives that are pleasing to God (or lives that are intrinsically “good”, because there is something attractive/ beautiful about such lives), and so we could strive to live such a good life.

However, the Bible also makes it clear that while we can become “better”, we can never attain the perfection of a sin-free life. We are still encouraged to strive to become better however.

yes, i do believe there are things in the Bible, as all other religious books that lead us to inspiration to change our actions and such but as to an actual real, life changing working wonder, i don't see how.

When we are inspired by (a) the moral code set out in the Bible, and (b) the examples of “heroes of the faith” described in the Bible, these help us to strive to live lives of “goodness” (though we do fail at times).

so i was wanting to know how the Christians view repentance, what it is is, salvation and such.

Repentance involves (a) recognizing that I did something wrong, (b) feeling a sense of remorse for my action – i.e., if I could go back in time and relive the event, I would act differently, (c) making a decision to turn away from that action or lifestyle and turn instead to God, (d) taking steps to help me to indeed not repeat that action.

the reason why i'm asking is this.

looking back through the Bible, it seems one could theorize that we see God repenting for what He created. i say this because:

The King James Version (KJV) Bible does use the phraseology of “God repenting of what he did in creating humans”. This is anthropomorphic language (which is awkwardly phrased in the KJV and is more appropriately phrased on modern English Bibles), and does not mean that God did something sinful/evil (and then recognized this after the fact and started the four-step process mentioned above).

There is a difference in our repenting versus God “repenting”.

When we repent, we repent of doing something sinful/evil.

In KJV usage, when God “repents” of creating humans, he is not stating that he did something sinful or evil (he did not), but rather is expressing a sense of disgust/revulsion at the state that we humans have reached (in terms of evil and pain and suffering we cause by our actions).

1. Adam and Eve were created by a being who is perfect,

True.

thus it is good, or a perfect creation.

Yes and No (see explanation below).

Perfection is a matter of definition. Perfection exists ONLY in the context of the fulfillment of a specific purpose. Perfection does not exist in the absence of a specific purpose.

Example 1: A song whose purpose is to evoke happiness can be said to be perfect only if it does evoke happiness. And that song is perfect when it is sung or played in a context/environment where it is appropriate to experience/express joy and happiness would be quite imperfect in a setting (such as a funeral) where it is appropriate to express a measure of sadness and sympathy/empathy for the surviving family.

Example 2: A circle can be said to be perfect when our purpose is to create a shape that is all curves and no angles. However if we our purpose is to create a four-sided object which fits perfectly into a receptacle (which itself has 4 sides), the circle would be far from perfect.

So, the creation was perfect, ONLY in the context of God’s purpose for the creation.

The creation (as initially created) does not need to satisfy any other criteria we may choose to apply to our concept of “perfection”.

if they were perfect, there would be no reason to have a tree in the garden of eden,

I beg to differ.

It is not meaningful for us to refer to Adam and Eve as perfect without defining the purpose / context for which they were created.

God created them with a purpose (to be conscious volitional beings who could voluntarily choose to love each other and to love God) which necessitated the existence of real choices.

to where they had to make a choice. perfection doesn't have the ability to make a choice.

Incorrect. Perfection is meaningful ONLY in the context of a purpose that is perfectly fulfilled by the object in question.

If my purpose is to create a robot that can make choices (e.g., to play chess at Grand Master level), then perfection by definition needs the robot to make choices (e.g., choices of what opening moves or responding moves to make).

it just is.

Incorrect. See above.

so if a God, all-knowing, all-powerful created these beings, why would God also plant the tree in the garden?

The Bible presents types, verbal-parables, life-parables, experiential-parables for the purpose of teaching various truths about reality.

A life-parable is one where God creates a real-life situation that one of his children faces. And based on the responses (verbal and actions) of the child/person, a teaching moment is created, both for the person, and for the generations to come (who will read the history / biography of their ancestor who faced the choice and situation).

Adam and Eve and their experiences provide a set of such life-parables, where their experiences are a type/parable of things we face in our lives (by virtue of being volitional beings).

I.e., Adam and Eve faced a choice, to obey or disobey God, to sin or to not sin. The chose to disobey God, to sin.

This is similar to the life choices we have. Each of us faces the choice almost every day, to obey or disobey God, to sin or to not sin. Sometimes we choose to sin and sometimes we choose to obey.

Adam and Eve’s choice in a sense is a “type” of the choices we face. And their volitional nature (which enabled them to make a choice to sin or to obey) is a “type” (an archetype or a representation or a similar thing) of our volitional nature.

one could take it further and ask, well why did God create Lucifer if God already knew the Lucifer would rebel against Him? that's not the point for this discussion.

Yes, God knew Lucifer would rebel against Him. And yet God created Lucifer, because God has room in his universe for beings who obey him and for beings who disobey him. God has a purpose for the existence of Lucifer (if nothing more, to be a teaching example to both angels and humans about the nature of evil and the consequences of sin).

Note: my response to your questions was too long, so I had to split my response into two posts. See part 2 in the next post.

Cordially,
John

 

[Simple_Mind]

Note: My response to your questoins was too long, so I had to split my response into two posts.

This is part 2 of my response. See my previous post for part 1 of my response to your question.

2. we see constantly in the Bible that the people of God, and God interveneing. it would seem to most that we see God trying to offer humanity time and time the ability to repent

God is not “trying” to offer us the ability to repent. God has created us with the ability to repent (being by nature volitional beings, we can choose to obey, or to disobey, to go our own way away from God, or to repent and turn around to come back to God.

and change from that very action that caused all the problems. we read how the Jewish people offered sacrifices unto the Lord, we see the passion on the cross, the final sacrifice made, and then even with the 2nd coming of Christ and all that entails and promises, from what i see, a complete destruction of the former, and a birth of renewal, or maybe one could argue, the way it was intended to be.

Ok.

My life and my history (including both good and evil) are an essential part of what has gone into forming me into the person I am.

Similarly, human life and human history (including both good and evil) are an essential part of what are going into forming humanity at large into what we are. This history (including good and evil) is a part of our growing up – to be ready for the next phase of our existence – in eternity in the presence of the Christian God.

now i'm not meaning to be demeaning here, but this perception from reading the Bible seems tremendously flawed. we were a being created for the pleasurement of a god.

There is nothing flawed about us being created by a God who enjoys the act of creating, and who enjoys interacting with his creation / us.

we had no choice in our being created. sure we have choices to make after creation but that stain if you will will still be on us. so if one would believe that there is a flaw to our character at human nature which would have to start at birth, who would be the one to blame...

By our nature we are volitional beings (we have the freedom to make choices, for good or for evil). If you wish to call this a flaw, you are welcome to do so. I don’t view volition to be a flaw.

God creates us with volition (freedom of choice) because creaturely-volition is necessary for the greater purpose that God has in mind. His purpose is to create a race of beings who can freely choose to love one another and freely choose to love God, and to develop the character of this race of beings into the kind of character that is a joy to be with for eternity.

To fulfull this purpose, volition is necessary. If God had created us without volition, we would be robots. And there is no meaning or joy in a robot telling us that it loves us (when we know the robot has no choice, but is merely programmed to say the meaningless words).

God or the human being? now i believe that people are the ones to blame for their problems and mistakes most of the time,

I agree with you.

but with the idea of repentance in accordance to God because we are a sinful being,

We repent when we choose to turn away from an action that is sinful (that disobeys God/ that causes pain and suffering to ourselves, or to others, or to human society at large).

this is where i start coming to a different conclusion. i didn't make myself. i came into existence with this supposed problem if you will. so if we are to believe that there is a creator, wouldn't the responsibility for the stain being on our character

The issue is not so much, a stain on our character, as rather the choices that we freely make for sin/evil.

At the judgment, we will be held accountable for our ACTIONS (which resulted from the choices we made). We are not held accountable for a stain on our character (if such a stain were to be independent of our actions).

and human nature as many believers be, be on the head of the Almighty?

The responsibility is shared.

God is not afraid to take responsibility for having created us as volitional beings (and he makes it clear that he created us with volition because he has a higher purpose for us that requires us to be volitional beings).

And we are responsible for the choices that we make (as individuals) for sin/evil.

so with all this said, this idea of eternal repentance to be accepted to God, seems a bit nonsensical.

I beg to differ.

Example: Let’s say you are dating a woman who does one-night-stands with guys at bars all the time. You love her and want to marry her. However for her to be acceptable to you (for you to marry her), you ask her to “repent” (i.e., turn away from her lifestyle of picking up guys at bars) and commit to a lifestyle that is acceptable to you (to be committed solely to you and to not pick up other guys at bars).

This analogy (above) is similar to what God is calling us to (to put aside sin, to put aside our selfish self-centered ways, and to turn to him, to work with him to change our character to one that will be a joy to be with in eternity).

it makes sense why people still sin after believeing. you can't fix a problem that you didn't create and what we see in the Bible as the means that God has offered hasn't done anything as to absolve the problem entirely. the people of the Bible, still "sinned" reluctantly while God gave them many ways to cleanse themselves. it seems like free-will is God's wild card to cover Himself if you will. i gave you free-will, so its your fault.

God is not primarly looking to assign fault. He is not out to destroy us.

Rather, God makes us this offer, that if we repent and turn to him he will freely forgive us, and will help us to change in character (to move away from lifestyles of sin and evil).

so to finally end this long post, which again i apologize, how do you as a Christian repent?

I go through the four-step process I mentioned above:

(a) recognizing that I did something wrong,

(b) feeling a sense of remorse for my action – i.e., if I could go back in time and relive the event, I would act differently,

(c) making a decision to turn away from that action or lifestyle and turn instead to God,

(d) taking steps to help me to indeed not repeat that action.

i can say, as an atheist, if repentance is merely along the ideas of changing ways we live, then i technically "repent" all the time, because i want to better myself constantly and to be as moral as i can be.

I commend you for this.

but with the idea of repentance, to sin no more with each day we're alive, and in relation to a relationship with God. and what are the affects that you as a believer feel is happening to you as you repent?

There is an incredible freedom that comes from repentance.

There have been times when I have drifted away from God (due to sin). When after a time, I have repented, and have made overtures to come closer to God, I have been amazed at his willingness to take me back into the warmth of fellowship with him (difficult to explain).

There have been things I have done in my past (before I became a Christian) where I have been selfish and have hurt or harmed others by my selfishness. After I became a Christian, I have tried to relocate such individuals and make recompense where possible (note: making recompense, where possible, is a part of true repentance.) And there has been an incredible burden lifted off of me by my doing this.

There have been a couple of instances where I have not been able to re-locate the individuals involved (one had passed away in the meantime). In such cases, I have been haunted by remorse and a wishing that I could turn back the clock and behave more kindly and less selfishly to the persons in question. I have been unable to turn back the clock (to state the obvious). However when I have turned this entire burden over to the Christian God – prayed and told him that I am sincerely remorseful for my past behavior, and asked for His forgiveness, and asked if he could “make it up” to the person if I couldn’t find the person (if the person is alive of course) – and I have experienced this incredible sense of peace and a burden lifted off of me. No need to worry any more

And interestingly, the Christian God has provided me the opportunity at a later time to help other individuals in a way that enabled me to “do penance” in a sense (to be other-centered where earlier I had been self-centered). And again, there is an incredible sense of forgiveness and an easing of the burden of guilt (or remorse).

Jesus tells us that “The truth, i.e., the gospel, will set you free.” And the Truth has indeed set me free (of the burden of past sins, of the burden of guilt and/or remorse etc).

whether it be physical feelings, emotional feelings, or spiritual stuff, feel free to respond with whatever you can answer with.

See above.

May you be blessed with the Presence of Christ,
Cordially,
John

P.S. I used to be an atheist. Over time, I became disillusioned with Atheism, and ultimately became a Christian Theist. (If you wish, see http://www.godsci.org/gs/chri/testimony/seek.html for a summary of the path that led me from Atheism to Christ).

 

[Im_A]

To save space am gonna snip the bits I'd like to respond to, if that's ok?Where do you see God repenting?? I get that you're extrapolating, but that seems really left of centre.

If you're to posit that God is repenting of something (also, what is He repenting of?), who do you imagine He is repenting to? Does that mean you're suggesting there's a higher being that then forgives God?



I don't believe God repents, at all. I see no Biblical indication of that, and I can't see any philospohical support for that. When it comes to the issue of free will and original sin, I think - as unsatisfying as it is - it will always be one of the unanswerable questions. I used to question it a lot (felt God had pretty much stacked the decks) and eventually realised that there's little value in being loved by someone who is forced into it. We demonstrate our love for Him by being willing to lay down our sin, pick up our cross and follow Him. What would it mean to Him if He forced us to love Him? Nothing.

depending on translation one uses here's a verse:
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people." (Exodus 32:14) KJV

even with the issue of translation, and one could be knit picky all day with one translation over the other, and that is not my intent here by any means. because one could quote this translation as a refutation:
"So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people." (Exodus 32:14) NASB

so as to who God is repenting to in this case, since there seems to be a common trend with repentance meaning change, its to His people, not a higher being. i would ask why a perfect being would changes its mind in the first place, because i cannot perceive how a perfect being would need to do such a thing. but yet in the Bible we do see a god who changes its mind.

the philosophical support i see is this:
a perfect being would have to be perfect in every creation. if a creation has free-will it is imperfect. perfection deems no choice. i would personally think, anything that comes from a perfect being, is perfect, anything that comes from an imperfect being is perfect. perfection just is, imperfection requires choice and change. if God is all knowing, if God is all powerful, then why did the incident in the Garden of Eden happen? is it that God's perfect work is limited to humanity's free-will?

Given how many people choose not to do so, that's an indication of how hard a thing it is to do. But it's done out of love, for Him. Of course He has! He hung our sin on the cross. If we accept His forgiveness, we are absolved. You're speaking to legalism and not acknowledging Grace. It's all about Grace.You make God sound like a passive aggressive petulant child, d00d. Tell me, what need does He have to "cover Himself"? Thing is, if we choose to sin, it is our fault. We are autonomous, and we need to accept responsibility for our actions and behaviour.

the need to "cover Himself" to me would be easy. so he could have a devout following, because the bible is clear that god is a jealous god. one way one could look at it is, if we human beings are smart enough to figure out that the serpent was right in the garden of eden, we'd be more than able to figure out, ok a scam is going on here. so to cover himself with love shown on a cross, all the marvelous amazing things done in the OT, in a way to appease his creationn so that he can have a following.

i'm not meaning to be demeaning here and i hope you don't take it in that manner.

and yes i do believe that when one does a wrong it is the responsibility of the person, not some god. but as to the whole the way reality is, at least in a Christian perspective, meaning, sin in this world and so forth, there has to be a cause, someone to shoulder the responsibility to who started the ability for mankind to make free-will choices that are wrong, ie sinful. is it fair to blame Adam and Eve and playing the devil's advocate, is it fair to blame the devil? they are not their own creation. they came from the same source.

i'll give an example to show my point and admittingly,this may be not the best example but the best i can think of for the moment.

for a living, i work on machines and our company produces plastic bottles and we sell them to customers. we have inspectors who inspect the bottles, pack them and the tow motor drivers pick them up, take them to our warehouse, and shipping sends them to the customer. so here's a quick illustration of how the process works:
1. we have a group of people who setup the machine. they put the new parts on, make sure the new parts and everything is working properly, and then make sure the bottles are in spec.
2. those bottles get sent into quality control, one set of bottles so QC(quality control) can do all their tests on them and they qualify them before inspectors get put on the line. we scrap out the bottles that are being made while getting everything into spec.
3. quality control then ok's those bottles if all the tests come back good, then the setup crew, maintains the line for a given time. depending on how the machine seems to be running it can be for a short time, or a long time that the setup crew maintains the line. once that set of bottles are qualified, we then start production on that machine. the inspectors come and production begins.
4. once the machine for a good amount of time is running good, then the line gets signed over to the operators to maintain and run until the order is completed.

say a customer receives bad product that is full of problems. who is the customer going to blame as the person responsible for giving them bad product in your opinion? here's the choices:
a)the setup crew
b)the inspectors
c)the operators
d)the quality control group
e)the coroporation itself
f)the shipping department
g)the tow motor drivers
i'll go further with this example, when you answer with your opinion.

You'd have a valid point if only our being perfect earned us salvation. In that case, He would have stacked the decks and made the game unwinnable for us. But we don't earn it, we are given it. So He has no need to cover Himself. He's already folded and given the victory to us. What we then do with it is our choice.

ok so here's a few scenarios i'd like to ask you questions to if you don't mind:
a man stands upon the judgement throne of God. he is shown of all the evil he has done. he is without God as well. God doesn't say why but the verdict is, this man is going to hell. in your opinion, why does he go to hell? his evilness or him being without God?

a man stands upon the judgement throne of God. he is shown of all the evil he has done. he is with God, born-again, but yet even after his conversion, God still shows his evilness. what's the verdict in your opinion?

if the verdict is different between the two, then my next question would be why?

Perhaps that's the difference. Humanism is all about bettering ourselves; Christianity and repentance is all about allowing the Lord to better us. He's the one that makes us new; He's the one that makes us more loving and forgiving. We can't intellectualize ourselves into being better people, regardless of how much we think we can.

Repentance isn't just saying sorry. It's submitting to Him, and acknowledging that we have done wrong in His eyes, and asking Him to make us into the people He created us to be. In repenting, we are made clean and He sees Christ when He looks at us. And it doesn't matter if we need to repent of a million things a million times a day - He will always take us back and continue to heal and change us. But whether we let Him is our choice - free will.

actually one can intellectualize themselves into better people. it happens all the time. when people of no faith become better, it is not with the help of God, because automatically they are not qualitified for help with God (pardon the phrasing of that) because they are without God without faith, without the spirit of God, yet they become better people.

so in your opinion, is there a difference between the moralities of a moral non-believer and a moral believer especially when they are living similiar lifestyles morally?

 

[Golden_Cross]

Now this is just what I believe, not an actual fact.

God let mankind fall so that people would know the truth and know right from wrong. That's what the tree was. It was the tree of knowledge. It shows us what real love is (God). I believe that God did this not for his repentance but so that we could see and learn who he is. If we were all perfect, we wouldn't know what real love is. Jesus died to show us love. NOW the purpose of repentance is showing God that we love him, because repentance is obedience. What we are doing when we repent is obeying God. I use to be in witchcraft- I done a lot that I'm not proud of. When I started to date this one boy he took me to church and I instantly felt God calling me. I heard him telling me to turn away from it. It was very hard because magick is a drug and it takes you down fast. It took me a year to repent completely and when you do repent God blesses you and gives you things that are good. Don't over think the small things. God will change your life if you want him too. anyways simply (repentance is love for God)

Just ask yourself ....
If your wrong, would you want to know? and what would you have to lose.
If the Christians are wrong they don't lose anything. I'm very glad to see yourself seeking answers. I'm sure that many people on here will help answer them.

 

[irenemcg]

[Disclaimer On]this is going to be a long post because i want to fully explain why i'm asking the questions and hopefully anyone that is gracious enough to respond reads it all before responding. this seems to be the fitting forum for this.

my intentions here are not to demean the faith, or believers or any perception of a god that you all have, or iow, my intentions are not to blaspheme and my intentions are not to bait or flame anyone.

i'm atheist and was a Christian from the age of 12 till well officially this year, but the deconversion process began 4 years ago. the way i'm explaining my question is all based upon what i see as hypotheticals and the perceptions that i see with the Bible and with the definitions of God that have been historically known as the popular way of defining attributes of God. i am secular and atheist, so i hold no personal convictions with views that may be shared. i'm using hypotheticals here in order to explain my "exploring of the Christian faith with Christians".
[Dislcaimer Off]

i'm confused with how the Bible leads us to repentance or anything. yes, i do believe there are things in the Bible, as all other religious books that lead us to inspiration to change our actions and such but as to an actual real, life changing working wonder, i don't see how.

so i was wanting to know how the Christians view repentance, what it is is, salvation and such.

the reason why i'm asking is this.
looking back through the Bible, it seems one could theorize that we see God repenting for what He created. i say this because:
1. Adam and Eve were created by a being who is perfect, thus it is good, or a perfect creation. if they were perfect, there would be no reason to have a tree in the garden of eden, to where they had to make a choice. perfection doesn't have the ability to make a choice. it just is. so if a God, all-knowing, all-powerful created these beings, why would God also plant the tree in the garden? one could take it further and ask, well why did God create Lucifer if God already knew the Lucifer would rebel against Him? that's not the point for this discussion.
2. we see constantly in the Bible that the people of God, and God interveneing. it would seem to most that we see God trying to offer humanity time and time the ability to repent and change from that very action that caused all the problems. we read how the Jewish people offered sacrifices unto the Lord, we see the passion on the cross, the final sacrifice made, and then even with the 2nd coming of Christ and all that entails and promises, from what i see, a complete destruction of the former, and a birth of renewal, or maybe one could argue, the way it was intended to be.
now i'm not meaning to be demeaning here, but this perception from reading the Bible seems tremendously flawed. we were a being created for the pleasurement of a god. we had no choice in our being created. sure we have choices to make after creation but that stain if you will will still be on us. so if one would believe that there is a flaw to our character at human nature which would have to start at birth, who would be the one to blame...God or the human being? now i believe that people are the ones to blame for their problems and mistakes most of the time, but with the idea of repentance in accordance to God because we are a sinful being, this is where i start coming to a different conclusion. i didn't make myself. i came into existence with this supposed problem if you will. so if we are to believe that there is a creator, wouldn't the responsibility for the stain being on our character and human nature as many believers be, be on the head of the Almighty?

so with all this said, this idea of eternal repentance to be accepted to God, seems a bit nonsensical. it makes sense why people still sin after believeing. you can't fix a problem that you didn't create and what we see in the Bible as the means that God has offered hasn't done anything as to absolve the problem entirely. the people of the Bible, still "sinned" reluctantly while God gave them many ways to cleanse themselves. it seems like free-will is God's wild card to cover Himself if you will. i gave you free-will, so its your fault.

so to finally end this long post, which again i apologize, how do you as a Christian repent? i can say, as an atheist, if repentance is merely along the ideas of changing ways we live, then i technically "repent" all the time, because i want to better myself constantly and to be as moral as i can be. but with the idea of repentance, to sin no more with each day we're alive, and in relation to a relationship with God. and what are the affects that you as a believer feel is happening to you as you repent? whether it be physical feelings, emotional feelings, or spiritual stuff, feel free to respond with whatever you can answer with.

Hi there, I am sorry you have walked away from Christianity, but it would seem to me what you have walked away from is an intellectual understanding of Christianity as a religion rather than walking away from a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

I will number my answers to your questions as you have done.

ans 1. God does not want us to be puppets under His control, He wants us to choose to love Him , to walk with Him in a relationship. Hence, the fall but He made a way for us to be restored back to Him, He is the Father who loves you and wants you to come home to Him. For this Jesus came and He died for you.

ans 2. Under the Old Covenant sacrificial Offerings for sin were necessary, hence the Priest offered sacrificial offerings up for the sins of all the Jewish People. But under the New Covenant when Jesus died on the cross He , the sinless, spotless lamb of God gave His life as a once for all sacrifice for your sins and mine, and He truimphed over the grave, that you and I might have our sins forgiven and spend eternity with Him.

All have sinned includes all of us, have you kept the ten commandments?
So you know that you have sinned and you believe God has caused you to sin because He gave you the choice between right and wrong. Can't you see God wants us to want to fellowship and be in relationship with Him?

He loves you and wants you to come in search of Him, you were created to walk in harmony with your creator, but that perfect relationship was distorted by the fall, when the first Adam fell, but Jesus is the second Adam and He has made the way for that perfect relationship to be restored. The blood Jesus shed was for you. He paid the price for your sins that you wouldn't have to. Repentance is a change of heart and mind, it means turning away from the old life of sin and embracing the new, living for Jesus and making Him Lord of your life. He calls us to follow Him to be His Disciples.
I know my sins are forgiven past present and future, and yes at times I sin and get it wrong, but when I sin I know I can come again to the foot of the cross and receive grace , mercy and forgiveness.
I am a Pentecostal so I know what it is to feel the presence of God all around me, but it's not all about emotions although our emotions get involved. I would say it's sometimes but not always it's after repentance that we feel the overwhelming love and mercy of my God poured out on us.

You have made no mention in your post about the Holy Spirit, I do not know your background but can I say He is a very real part of the God head and He even as I am typing this is desiring to reveal the real Jesus to you. The Lord Jesus beckons you home! I implore you find the real Jesus, religion doesn't cut it, only Jesus can give you the deep peace within, only He can heal the hurts you have experienced in and out of the church and He loves you. It's not knowing about Him, it's knowing Him.

COME HOME MY CHILD
Come see Jesus standing with his arms open wide.
He beckons to you “Come home my child,
I will show you the biggest party you have ever seen;
You will be so much happier than you have ever been.

I came to give you an abundant life,
There will be no more toiling and no more strife,
I am the shepherd who cares for His flock,
Come my child place your feet upon the rock.

Don’t you know I want you to be part of my bride,
Come now and walk with me and in me abide,
I want you to know you can be at peace,
For my love for you will never cease.

On the cross I paid the price for your sins,
Don’t you know my blood can wash away your sins?
I long for you to come to me in true repentance,
My desire is for you to know real forgiveness.

So come my child and enter right into my rest,
I love you and I long for you to experience life at best,
My dear friend, won’t you come and follow me?
The true meaning of life I want you to see.

My child I see your hurts, I see all your pain,
I long to heal and restore your life again,
Every tear, every hurt I will wipe away,
Oh how I long for you to come to me today.

My dear child I love when you lend an ear towards me.
I love to hear your voice cry my name in moments of need,
So come now and pay attention to this precious gospel seed.
I want you to know me as Saviour and Lord, come home to me.”




Love from Jesus


http;//www.discipleofjesussite.com

 

[Emmy]

Dear Im A. Unless I misunderstood you, you cannot see why Repentance? what will it all lead to? what is God`s Plan eventually? First off, God made us in His image, nothinh else in this Universe is the same. And God did not repent of creating Mankind, God loves us. Jesus told us, while He was amongst us: " Be ye perfect, as God is perfect." We now know that our perfect God wants perfect adopted sons and daughters. We were made good by God, but we never were in a position to be TEMPTED, until the Serpent came and craftily tempted us into disobeying God, and eating of the Tree of Knowledge. God had warned us not to. We disobeyed, and were banished to Earth, dead to God`s Nearness and fellowship. Instead of repenting, we moved ever farther away from God. In time Jesus came, and showed us a loving Heavenly Father, who wants us back with Him. To live with a perfect God, we must become perfect, too. Jesus paid the price to God`s Holy Law, which we could Not pay. Jesus reconciled us to God, and we have to become perfect children, of a perfect God. Jesus told us how: repent, stop being selfish and unloving, and become Loving as our Father in Heaven is loving. Agape is the Love we need to learn, Love God with all our beings, and love each other, as we love ourselves. Jesus will lead us back, in fact He is the Way. He will help and guide us. Heaven is our original home, and that is where God awaits His perfect children, to live with for eternity. You know the Bible, IM A, and Repentance is the Way back to God, where Love will live forever. I say this humbly and with love. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.