Question for a Creationist

[USincognito]

Again don't try the tactic that you are the smartest person on the planet, and nobody else understands what a nested hierarchy is. I don't fall for such silly things.

We are smart enough to see that you are using avoidance and distraction to not answer a direct question you were asked by two different people.

Really?

You honestly think that cars and computer codes form nested heirarchies? Could you explain to us how they do so?

Could you please explain in your own words what you think a nested hierarchy is, and why you think cars and computer code fall into them?

Do you expect us to fall for your evasiveness?

 

[nuttypiglet]

I'm asking you to take my word that I know what a nested hierarchy is. If I say that I know what it is, then why the necessity for doubt and besides, it isn't that difficult to understand what it is anyhow. It's a bit like me saying I don't believe you really exist, I want you to send me a copy of your birth certificate.

 

[USincognito]

And we're asking you to support your contention that cars and computers form nested hierarchies. Thus far all you have done is try and avoid the subject and toss out red herrings. How about actually stepping up to the plate and show us how cars and computers form nested hierarchies?

Really?

You honestly think that cars and computer codes form nested heirarchies? Could you explain to us how they do so?

Could you please explain in your own words what you think a nested hierarchy is, and why you think cars and computer code fall into them?

 

[essentialsaltes]

I'm asking you to take my word that I know what a nested hierarchy is. If I say that I know what it is, then why the necessity for doubt and besides, it isn't that difficult to understand what it is anyhow. It's a bit like me saying I don't believe you really exist, I want you to send me a copy of your birth certificate.

In a nested hierarchy, we might expect all cars with 4 cylinders to be on a different branch from those with 6 cylinders. Or cars with 4 doors to be on a different branch from those with 2 doors. But my car from a single manufacturer in a single year comes in varieties with either 4 or 6 cylinders AND either 2 or 4 doors. And cars of different manufacturers come with all of these options. They do not seem to fall into a nested hierarchy to me. Would you like to explain how they do?

 

[USincognito]

And now there's three.

 

[Tomk80]

Again don't try the tactic that you are the smartest person on the planet, and nobody else understands what a nested hierarchy is. I don't fall for such silly things.

Hey, I'm just asking you to justify your claims. Of course, given that you are a creationist, my expectation of you justifying your claims or citing your sources is null. But it would be nice to be surprised and have a creationist actually do that for a change.

Again, this has nothing to do with me being smartwr than you. Only with me asking you to justify your claims.

 

[nuttypiglet]

And we're asking you to support your contention that cars and computers form nested hierarchies. Thus far all you have done is try and avoid the subject and toss out red herrings. How about actually stepping up to the plate and show us how cars and computers form nested hierarchies?

There are many things you could group into a nested hierarchy including cars, computer code etc. Take a computer code which is custom made for a manufacturing company, which must include accounts(sales/purchase/nominal ledgers/cash book, budgeting etc) then the manufacturing side including stock control, ordering, assembly etc, then sales with marketing, order processing, customer service etc. Then you have other things like personnel files, forecasting etc. This is a very complex piece of software, the kind I wrote for companies for over 20 years. With commonalities in each piece of code, you simply eliminate all the codes apart from one, which is then simply called upon when necessary. There is a lot of grouping and commonalities and evolution of the software with different versions progressing.

 

[BrandiFL]

There's a good video AronRa did about nested hierarchies where he compared cars to biology. It shows that life is not intelligently designed like cars... but this smurf account is too new and I can't post links

 

[Tomk80]

There are many things you could group into a nested hierarchy including cars, computer code etc. Take a computer code which is custom made for a manufacturing company, which must include accounts(sales/purchase/nominal ledgers/cash book, budgeting etc) then the manufacturing side including stock control, ordering, assembly etc, then sales with marketing, order processing, customer service etc. Then you have other things like personnel files, forecasting etc. This is a very complex piece of software, the kind I wrote for companies for over 20 years. With commonalities in each piece of code, you simply eliminate all the codes apart from one, which is then simply called upon when necessary. There is a lot of grouping and commonalities and evolution of the software with different versions progressing.

Thank you for demonstrating that you do not know what a nested hierarchy is.

 

[USincognito]

There are many things you could group into a nested hierarchy including cars, computer code etc. Take a computer code which is custom made for a manufacturing company, which must include accounts(sales/purchase/nominal ledgers/cash book, budgeting etc) then the manufacturing side including stock control, ordering, assembly etc, then sales with marketing, order processing, customer service etc. Then you have other things like personnel files, forecasting etc. This is a very complex piece of software, the kind I wrote for companies for over 20 years. With commonalities in each piece of code, you simply eliminate all the codes apart from one, which is then simply called upon when necessary. There is a lot of grouping and commonalities and evolution of the software with different versions progressing.

I don't see the evidence of how computer code (since that's what you've myopically focused on) can form a nested hierarchy in this rambling mess. I also note you didn't discuss cars. Also you mention of grouping and commonalities sounds like an allusion to swapped modules which would be something that falsifies a nested hierarchy.

How about instead of vaguery, you give us, if not a real life example of computer code (or cars if you wish to get to them as well) forming a nested hierarchy and if you can't give specifics, how about a more specific analogy?

 

[46AND2]

I'm asking you to take my word that I know what a nested hierarchy is. If I say that I know what it is, then why the necessity for doubt and besides, it isn't that difficult to understand what it is anyhow. It's a bit like me saying I don't believe you really exist, I want you to send me a copy of your birth certificate.

Why should we take your word that you know what a nested hierarchy is when your other words demonstrate that you do not?

Why the necessity for doubt? Because we actually do know what it is, AND we know that neither cars, nor computer programs fit.

But the other posters gave you THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT by politely asking you to demonstrate how we are wrong about the cars and programs.

 

[Loudmouth]

There are many things you could group into a nested hierarchy including cars, computer code etc. Take a computer code which is custom made for a manufacturing company, which must include accounts(sales/purchase/nominal ledgers/cash book, budgeting etc) then the manufacturing side including stock control, ordering, assembly etc, then sales with marketing, order processing, customer service etc. Then you have other things like personnel files, forecasting etc. This is a very complex piece of software, the kind I wrote for companies for over 20 years. With commonalities in each piece of code, you simply eliminate all the codes apart from one, which is then simply called upon when necessary. There is a lot of grouping and commonalities and evolution of the software with different versions progressing.

Nowhere do I see description of a nested hierarchy. Nowhere. Perhaps you can try again?

Added by edit:
Perhaps you need a little reminder of what a nested hierarchy is? It is pattern of shared and derived features, first and foremost. It is not enough to say that these different programs share features. Programs can share features but still not fall into a nested hierarchy. That is because these programs need to fall into groups within groups, and this needs to filter down to the code itself.

Think of life. Primates and canines have their specific group features, but they also fall within the nested group of mammals. Every primate is a mammal. No primate has bird features, as an example. Mammals are also within a larger nested group, the aminotes. These include reptiles, amphibians, and birds. Every reptile is also an amniote, but not all amniotes are reptiles.

In previous threads I have used playing cards, and it might help here. With playing cards, we can start to see some nested groups, but it breaks down at some point. To start with, we can divide the cards into black and red. We can further subdivide the black cards into spades and clubs while the red cards subdivide into hearts and diamonds. We can then subdivide each suit further . . .but this is where we run into problems. When we subdivide each suit into ranks (ace, duece, etc.) we find that each group shares the same ranks. This is a clear violation of a nested hierarchy.

So it is more than just sharing features. It is the PATTERN of shared features that matters.

 

[Loudmouth]

I'm asking you to take my word that I know what a nested hierarchy is. If I say that I know what it is, then why the necessity for doubt and besides, it isn't that difficult to understand what it is anyhow. It's a bit like me saying I don't believe you really exist, I want you to send me a copy of your birth certificate.

If it isn't that hard to understand, and you claim to understand it, then why were you unable to show how your computer programs fall into a nested hierarchy? Quite frankly, I don't think you do understand what a nested hierarchy is, nor the implications of a nested hierarchy in debates like this one.

This just adds to the reasons why creationists are not taken seriously. The nested hierarchy is one of the foundational facts about biology that you have to understand to even have a seat in debates like this one, to even have an informed opinion about evolution or intelligent design. Time after time we run into creationists who do not have one inkling of what a nested hierarchy is, nor its implications in comparing fossils, living species, or even DNA sequences. Creationists like yourself lack the knowledge to even have an opinion worth debating. What happens instead is that we have to teach basic biology, like explaining what a nested hierarchy is.

It's like someone who wants to debate American Politics but is obviously unaware of what the Republican and Democratic parties are.