Proving the H. S. baptism is not connected with salvation

Biblicist

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At salvation we are baptised into Jesus as a result of us receiving the ministry of the Holy Spirit ie the ministry of bringing salvation to the unbeliever. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a subseqent event because Christ (now) in us is the baptiser.

To qualify your statement, do you hold to the classic Pentecostal view that every believer receives and is indwelt by the Holy Spirit (or sealed) at the very moment of Salvation but at some subsequent time they can then be Baptised in the Holy Spirit?
 
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TasManOfGod

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To qualify your statement, do you hold to the classic Pentecostal view that every believer receives and is indwelt by the Holy Spirit (or sealed) at the very moment of Salvation but at some subsequent time they can then be Baptised in the Holy Spirit?
I beleive the Holy Spirit seals but it is the Spirit of Jesus that indwels. I really believe those who say they are baptised with the Holy Spirit when they are saved are doing themselves and the Kingdom a dis-service.
 
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Biblicist

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TasManOfGod said:
Yes I do. I really believe those who say they are baptised with the Holy Spirit when they are saved are doing themselves and the Kingdom a dis-service.

Even though I once held to the view that all believers are initially sealed with the Spirit at the moment of salvation and are then later on Baptised in the Holy Spirit (with tongues), I must admit that I have changed my view on this – though I’m not all that sure I really ever felt comfortable with this point of view.

I can certainly understand how this doctrine has developed at least from an historical perspective in that many people who had been born again for decades have later on been able to fully embrace the Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues – as it also happened to me. Another major reason why the idea that we are initially only sealed in the Spirit and later on Baptised in the Spirit became popular in the early years of the last century is that the Pentecostal movement was heavily influenced by Wesleyan and 19th century Holiness theology in that they also believed in a two stage process.

Even though I hold to a very strong and well developed Full Gospel Theology, I acknowledge that my point of view is different to the vast majority of other Pentecostals and Charismatics but I would raise the stakes by saying that the Scriptures tell us that the normative pattern for receiving the Spirit at the moment of salvation is with the evidence of speaking in tongues; though the abilty to speak in tongues is not a necessary precursor for someone being born again.

Even though the Full Gospel has now been restored to the Church for well over a century, we have in my opinion poorly presented what it means to receive the Spirit. We should be expecting all at the moment of salvation to be receiving the Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

With my initial question to John Zain, I found that his Old Testament references were irrelevant and that his Gospel references were in most part incorrect and that he misunderstood how the events in Acts are to be applied – even so he was still accurately representing a fairly classic Pentecostal line; I'm happy to look at his Scriptures if anyone want to go that way.
 
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Our experience with the Holy Spirit is made a bit more clear through the experience of Jesus. When He was baptised, He became filled with the Spirit. Being filled with the Spirit, He went out into the wilderness to face His conflict with Satan. Having defeated Satan, He came back in the power of the Spirit to commence His ministry.

So there is one level of the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. When we are converted and baptised in water, we become filled with the Spirit. But there is a subsequent experience of being endued with the power of the Holy Spirit for witness and ministry, and it has something to do with seeing our authority in Christ over satan and his demons. It is gaining that victory that puts us in the power of the Spirit.

So this follows a Scriptural principle in receiving anything from God. There is:

The Promise - "you shall be baptised in the Holy Spirit"
The Problems - we are tested to ensure we mean business
with God
The Provision - once we get the victory in the midst of our
testings, we go forward in ministry in the
power of the Holy Spirit.

The reason why many Christians do not work in the power of the Holy Spirit, even though they themselves are filled with the Spirit, is that they have avoided the testing phase, or they are still struggling through it without yet getting the victory over many areas of their lives. They still not have come to the point where they not only know of their authority in Christ, but they have not yet developed enough to make it a reality in their experience.
 
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Biblicist

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Oscarr,

I understand your thoughts regarding your second paragraph (below) and even though I disagree with this point of view I do appreciate that it is the position held by almost all Pentecostals and probably most Charismatics. From our experiences over the last century or so it does make sense with how so many millions (including myself) came to embrace the Spirit, but in my view this position that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is subsequent to our initially being sealed in the Spirit has developed more as an accident of history.
So there is one level of the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. When we are converted and baptised in water, we become filled with the Spirit. But there is a subsequent experience of being endued with the power of the Holy Spirit for witness and ministry, and it has something to do with seeing our authority in Christ over satan and his demons. It is gaining that victory that puts us in the power of the Spirit.
With regard to your opening paragraph:
Our experience with the Holy Spirit is made a bit more clear through the experience of Jesus. When He was baptised, He became filled with the Spirit. Being filled with the Spirit, He went out into the wilderness to face His conflict with Satan. Having defeated Satan, He came back in the power of the Spirit to commence His ministry.
The problem with using Jesus as an example is that we are addressing how the Son of God received the Spirit and not a mere man. If he were an ordinary human we would still be in a bind, in that if he was merely human, as he had not previously experienced being born again we would have to then say that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is something that we receive at our initial moment of salvation.

Unlike the Day of Pentecost and with how the Spirit fell upon the first Gentiles, Jesus did not speak in tongues which was the only barometer or benchmark that the Apostles and later Peter and his friends along with the Council at Jerusalem would accept.
 
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Biblicist

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I beleive the Holy Spirit seals but it is the Spirit of Jesus that indwels...
I failed to notice your choice of words with your earlier post; how do you (if that is your intent) differentiate between the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Jesus?
 
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Oscarr,


The problem with using Jesus as an example is that we are addressing how the Son of God received the Spirit and not a mere man. If he were an ordinary human we would still be in a bind, in that if he was merely human, as he had not previously experienced being born again we would have to then say that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is something that we receive at our initial moment of salvation.

Unlike the Day of Pentecost and with how the Spirit fell upon the first Gentiles, Jesus did not speak in tongues which was the only barometer or benchmark that the Apostles and later Peter and his friends along with the Council at Jerusalem would accept.

One thing we have to understand about the incarnation of Jesus is that He deliberately laid aside His attributes as the Son of God, the Second Person of the Trinity, in order to become a genuine human being, totally dependent on the Holy Spirit. Unless He did that, He would never be a model of ministry for us. If He was not a true human being, He would not have been able to tell His disciples that they could do the same works as He did, even greater works. The fact that He did say that to His disciples, meant that anyone filled with the Spirit could do all the works that Jesus did, even greater works, and this has been well and truly proved through the experiences of men and women of God all through church history, long before the Pentecostal movement came into being. All the early church fathers, St Anthony, St Ambrose, St Jerome, St Bede, St Patrick, St Gregory the Wonder Worker, St Martin of Tours, St Benedict, all did the same works as Jesus did.

So, you cannot say that we cannot do the same works in the power of the Holy Spirit that Jesus did, because you would be saying that Jesus retained His divine attributes, which is in conflict with Philippians which says that Jesus put everything aside and became nothing, a servant. It is only the resurrected Jesus who was given back His divine authority and power. It was only then that Jesus could send the Holy Spirit to empower believers to do His works in the world.

Another thing for you to realise is that the temptations in the wilderness were all to try and get Jesus to turn away from His calling and use His divine powers. If He had used his divine powers, Jesus would have gone against His agreement with the Father, and the plan of salvation would have been ruined. As a consequence, Jesus would have sinned and would no longer have been the sinless Saviour, totally obedient to the Father. In order for us to be truly saved, Jesus had to be a total human being, but sinless having not come through Joseph or Mary. Mary was a surrogate mother. Jesus was not born from any of Mary's eggs. God did not privide magical sperm to impregnate Mary. The embryo in Mary's womb was miraculously formed in Mary's womb. If Jesus had come from one of Mary's eggs, He would have shared Mary's sinful line. So, in order to be totally sinless, Jesus's incarnation had to be totally separate from Joseph's sperm and Mary's eggs.

I have seen posts which ridicule the idea of God impregnating Mary's egg. This shows how unconverted people have no idea of spiritual things, and come up with all sorts of silly ideas, other than just accepting that God did a miracle in Mary's womb and created the embryo.

Jesus breathed on the disciples just before He was ascended. This meant that the disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit and actually born again. But when Jesus was ascended and sat at the right hand of the Father, He sent the Holy Spirit, and they were actually endued with power for service.

The gift of tongues is designed to be the sign that Jesus is at the right hand of God, and that believers are endued with Holy Spirit power. Tongues is a post-ascension gift. It, along with the other gifts of the Holy Spirit are new gifts to provide tools for the Christian Church, and have only come into being because of the resurrection and ascension of Christ. This is why Jesus never spoke in tongues, because it was not time for that gift to be given.
 
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TasManOfGod

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I failed to notice your choice of words with your earlier post; how do you (if that is your intent) differentiate between the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Jesus?
The Spirit of Jesus is "Christ in us -the hope of glory " It is the spirit that changes our heart from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh - it builds our character into the likesness of Christ Himself; whereas the Holy Spirit is enables us to do that which is impossible in the natural- the same spirit in us that raised Jesus from the dead.
 
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John Zain

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Just so things are clear, you are talking about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit
being subsequent to our initially receiving the Spirit at the moment of salvation?
Yes, usually this is the case, but sometimes they occurr simultaneously.
.
 
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John Zain

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I beleive the Holy Spirit seals but it is the Spirit of Jesus that indwels. I really believe those who say they are baptised with the Holy Spirit when they are saved are doing themselves and the Kingdom a dis-service.
If you want, I can easily prove to you with several Scriptures that salvation concerns the Holy Spirit coming INSIDE
... whereas with the Holy Spirit baptism, Jesus sends the Holy Spirit UPON.
.
 
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TasManOfGod

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If you want, I can easily prove to you with several Scriptures that salvation concerns the Holy Spirit coming INSIDE
... whereas with the Holy Spirit baptism, Jesus sends the Holy Spirit UPON.
.
Go ahead - but be careful how you read the word "spirit". You might be mistaken like the translaters were and believe that the "fruit of the Spirit" means " fruit of the Holy Spirit" rather than the fruit of the regenerated spirit of man.
 
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Go ahead - but be careful how you read the word "spirit". You might be mistaken like the translaters were and believe that the "fruit of the Spirit" means " fruit of the Holy Spirit" rather than the fruit of the regenerated spirit of man.
I think that it would be safe to say that virtually all Theologians and academics agree that the Fruit of the Holy Spirit is exactly that - of the Holy Spirit.

When it comes to the nature of man, if you hold to the Trichotomous position then I can understand why you say this but I can't recall anyone who holds to the Trichotomous viewpoint who would agree with you - but I am more than happy to be corrected.

For those who hold to a Dichotomy or Functional Dichotomy then of course we would disagree with you. If you want to start a seperate topic on this one then go for it as it should make for some interesting and worthwhile discussions.
 
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John Zain

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TasManOfGod

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I think that it would be safe to say that virtually all Theologians and academics agree that the Fruit of the Holy Spirit is exactly that - of the Holy Spirit.
The only reason they could possibly think that is because of the capital put there by translaters from writings where there were no capitals. Theologians you refer to blindly follow the errors of those that go before them . Think about it. What good are the fruits (if they were) of the Holy Spirit to us if we dont receive them . It is us that need to exhibit fruits and such character traits dont just manifest miraculously but take time to develop. And who are we -spirit- rejuvenated by the presence of Jesus within. And it is He who have these traits and as Chritians we need them also if we are to be truly "Christ-like" as the name suggests.
In summation the word "spirit" should not be capitalized here because it confuses the issue of the responsibility of the "fruits".
Perhaps I could put this question out there: "Did Jesus exhibit these fruits before the Holy Spirit came upon Him."
 
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Biblicist

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Before I begin I should say that this became rather a long post - but I certainly enjoyed talking to myself about it all!
The only reason they could possibly think that is because of the capital put there by translaters from writings where there were no capitals.
This is one thing that Theologians and exegetical scholars rarely fall for and why they will spend an enormous amount of time discussing why the various translators may have incorrectly used lower case instead of uppercase or with the reverse and when it comes to specific translations of Greek words they can spend up to a chapter just discussing the complexities of a single word. We only have to look at how the academics interelate over the Greek word pneumatikos which is the opening of 1Co 12.

Theologians you refer to blindly follow the errors of those that go before them.
DA Carson, Gordon Fee, Bruce Winter, Anthony Thiselton, Robert Menzies, DG Dunn, Wayne Grudem, Bittlinger, Keener, etc, etc. These men stand as one in that they constantly lament the fact that the average preacher and church goer regularly uncritically accepts whatever they read from populist sources – especially if their source happens to be a celebrity.

One characteristic of an academic from within any persuasion, be it Theological, medical or whatever is that they will never accept the status quo. Of course due to our fallen nature these people certainly recognise that they can be as uncritical as anyone else at times but this is why peer-review and consultation is a major component of any academics life – as the saying goes, “Iron sharpens Iron”.

Through the work of men such as Fee, Caron Grudem and Storms (and with others) ; by the mid 90’s these men were responsible for removing cessationism as a serious form of Theology to the point where a new class of believer has risen who we refer to as being “open-but-cautious” when it comes to the things of the Spirit. The only authors/commentators who try and pull the old humanist line that the Manifestations of the Spirit died at the end of the first century are the die-hards who are still stuck in their worldly mindsets; and it is rare to find any respected contemporary Theologian who will try and stand up for the old cessationist way of thinking – cessationism and the academy do not go hand in hand.

--------------------

Perhaps I could put this question out there: "Did Jesus exhibit these fruits before the Holy Spirit came upon Him."
Can I rephrase this question by asking, did the 'God-man' Jesus exhibit the fruits of the Spirit before he was endued from Power from on High? Remember, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are of one essence even while he was on earth.

Even though Jesus had emptied himself of his power he was still both fully God and fully man. Both the Father and Jesus knew full well that no man could emulate him which is why the Father has given us the Holy Spirit. Unlike Jesus it is the work of the Holy Spirit within us who transforms our fallen human nature which is why we can display the fruits of the Spirit, unlike Jesus who had already displayed these characteristics even before his Baptism in the Jordan.

Jesus stood righteous before his Father even before his Baptism in the Holy Spirit which is why the Father said that he was pleased with his Son. Essentially Jesus (as a God-man) had done what no man could do, he lived a live that fully pleased the Father even though he had not been endued with Power from on High.

As there are 9 Manifestations of the Spirit there are also 9 Fruits of the Spirit and it is only in the power of the Spirit can we appropriate any of them. Even though it is common to incorrectly refer to the Manifestations of the Spirit as being “spiritual gifts” they are not something that we are given but they are exactly what Paul refers to them as – manifestations of the Spirit of God who resides within the believer.

No matter how hard or affective we are in following Pauls’ admonition to seek the greater graces, all we are doing is simply allowing the Spirit of God to minister through us as they are not given to us an external activity or gift from the Spirit. The same goes for the Fruit of the Spirit, even though we are the ones who are now appropriating these Fruits, it is only through the activity of the Spirit of God within us that we can do so.

If we do not acknowledge them as being Fruits of the Spirit then all we are inadvertently doing is saying that they are the result of our own human effort. If we lower the benchmark by referring to the Fruits of the Spirit as being merely the result of our own human effort are we to also refer to the 9 Manifestations of the Spirit as merely being manifestations of our humanity – undoubtedly you can see the problem here.

In summation the word "spirit" should not be capitalized here because it confuses the issue of the responsibility of the "fruits".
This is where the issue is not solely about responsibility but about agency. Even though we are each accountable to the Lord for our own actions and behaviour (responsibility) we are only able to appropriate these Fruits because they are enabled within us by the activity of the Spirit (agency). Without the Spirit we have no hope of being able to appropriate anything unless we embrace the Spirit who is the agent.

So the question is about both responsibility and agency or I should say agency before responsibility in that if we are not first empowered through the agency of the Holy Spirit then our responsibility means nothing.

Even though we all have the right to present our own viewpoints, if we know that we stand against virtually all thought on a specific matter then we need to present our position by acknowledging that our particular view is not in line not only with historical Christianity but with I would say virtually all respected peer-reviewed contemporary commentary. But of course a majority view doesn’t always mean that someone else is wrong and we only have to look at how the majority were horrified with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit over a century ago.


Trichotomy, Dichotomy or Functional Dichotomy?

Here’s where the contemporary popularity of the Trichotomous position (your own) has in my view created a few hiccups especially when it comes to Full Gospel Theology. Those who believe in the dichotomous model see man as being made up of two parts, being a body and a soul and that the Scriptures use the terms soul and spirit interchangeably. As I am a Functional Dichotomous I acknowledge that man is certainly body and soul but I recognise that the Scriptures use the terms soul and spirit in specific ways. As such I believe that man is functionally body and soul but when the Scriptures speak of the human spirit it is speaking of our demeanour, attitude, way of speech and thought.

This is similar to how people say that someone has either a pleasing or bitter spirit; they are not simply saying that a mans inner core, being his soul is pleasing or bitter (though there is a correlation), but that his words and manner of presentation is pleasing or bitter. When God looks into a man he sees his inner-soul; man can only see what comes from within the man as with his speech and overall demeanour.

Things certainly change when we are born again and are filled with the Spirit in that the born again individual then becomes body, soul and is indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

So leaving aside if your view is either correct or incorrect, the onus is now on you to demonstrate why the Church has got it wrong over the centuries as it has admittedly done with a number of its other various historical positions. But you will have to utilise the ‘tools of the trade’ to be able to effectively prove your point and of course these tools are a part of the arsenal of the scholar – and I grant that these tools can be used for both good and bad but with a bit of experience the bad is generally easy to pick.
 
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I am not conceeding but I am done. I can foresee endless and fruitless banter.
God bless
I understand how you feel; my responses can be a bit overly technical which is why I am looking forward to getting my website up and running; a forum such as CF is better suited to short and succinct replies. Some of my posts are best approached with a strong cup of coffee.
 
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hislegacy

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I understand how you feel; my responses can be a bit overly technical which is why I am looking forward to getting my website up and running; a forum such as CF is better suited to short and succinct replies. Some of my posts are best approached with a strong cup of coffee.

ROFLOL!!
 
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