Propitiation

[d taylor]

-

​

https://faithalone.org//wp-content/uploads/2019/11/4_hodges.pdf

The Final Judgment – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[Hammster]

-

​

https://faithalone.org//wp-content/uploads/2019/11/4_hodges.pdf

The Final Judgment – Grace Evangelical Society

???

It would be nice if you addressed the OP.

 

[fhansen]

So can we agree that propitiation means that God’s wrath is satisfied irrespective of man’s actions?

The idea that future sin is no longer a problem between God and a believer is anti-gospel and anti-Scriptural. You’re sins are forgiven, taken away and you are reconciled with God, now a slave to righteousness, not to the sin that opposes and separates you from Him. That’s the package, the status Christ achieves for us. To trample on that by continuing in sin is to mock God. It would be as if you stole money from me and someone else paid it back for you and I was appeased by that act, forgiving your debt, no longer at odds with you, our friendship restored. Except, that then you continued to steal money from me. My friendly attitude would not, and should not, remain. Nothing would be changed by the debt-payers act, justice was not restored, transgressions continue. In the gospel we’re to change, to become new creations as we begin to now show the same love to others that has been shown to us. Otherwise, we don’t even know God. Jesus’ solution to the problem of sin isn’t to ignore it, but to triumph over it, to take it away.

And even if that takes several rounds of forgiveness, at some point in our lives we must not remain a blatant offender of God, engaging in the deeds of the flesh that Scripture tells us will keep us from ever seeing Him. That is to crucify Christ all over again, Heb 6:6.

 

[Hammster]

The idea that future sin is no longer a problem between God and a believer is anti-gospel and anti-Scriptural. You’re sins are forgiven, taken away and you are reconciled with God, now a slave to righteousness, not to the sin that opposes and separates you from Him. That’s the package, the status Christ achieves for us. To trample on that by continuing in sin is to mock God. It would be as if you stole money from me and someone else paid it back for you and I was appeased by that act, forgiving your debt, no longer at odds with you, our friendship restored. Except, that then you continued to steal money from me. My friendly attitude would not, and should not, remain. Nothing would be changed by the debt-payers act, justice was not restored, transgressions continue. In the gospel we’re to change, to become new creations as we begin to now show the same love to others that has been shown to us. Otherwise, we don’t even know God. Jesus, solution to the problem of sin isn’t to ignore it, but to triumph over it, to take it away.

And even if that takes several rounds of forgiveness, at some point in our lives we must not remain a blatant offender of God, engaging in the deeds of the flesh that Scripture tells us will keep us from ever seeing Him. That is to crucify Christ all over again, Heb 6:6.

Once again, we are talking about propitiation. We are talking about what God does, not what man does.

 

[d taylor]

???

It would be nice if you addressed the OP.

So i post a link to an article whose title is

WHAT DO WE MEAN BY PROPITIATION?
DOES IT ONLY COUNT IF WE ACCEPT IT?
​

And you post ? and ask would i address the OP. Now that is funny.

 

[Hammster]

So i post a link to an article whose title is

WHAT DO WE MEAN BY PROPITIATION?
DOES IT ONLY COUNT IF WE ACCEPT IT?
​

And you post ? and ask would i address the OP. Now that is funny.

It’s a discussion forum. I’m not going to try to make you participate. But I could flood the page with links from Puritans. But I don’t see how that makes for a good debate.

 

[d taylor]

It’s a discussion forum. I’m not going to try to make you participate. But I could flood the page with links from Puritans. But I don’t see how that makes for a good debate.

-​

And i posted a post containing words to discuss, right before i posted the post with links.

 

[Hammster]

-​

And i posted a post containing words to discuss, right before i posted the post with links.

My sincere apologies. I missed that post. I’ll address it now.

 

[Hammster]

-
​

No because the issue that causes a person to end up in the lake of fire is not sin, as all sin has been forgiven.

Why then does a person end up in the lake of fire, because that person remained an unbeliever their whole earthly life. A person who remains an unbeliever, that never was a believer. They never received God's free gift of Eternal Life (salvation) and became a born again child of God.

So the only place for a person who lacks the life of God is the lake of fire. At the great white throne one is not sent to the lake of fire, till their name is not found in The book of Life. Sin is never mention as a reason, why because sin has been forgiven.

This cannot be true since unbelief itself is a sin. In fact, there could be an argument made that it’s the greatest of all sins in that it ignores the very Creator of life Himself. Romans 1 makes it clear that everyone knows who God is, yet willfully suppresses that knowledge.

 

[fhansen]

Once again, we are talking about propitiation. We are talking about what God does, not what man does.

Yes, we’re talking about what God expects of man, once appeased and reconciled. Gods wrath isn’t satisfied irrespective of man’s actions IOW. For example, if a man were to turn from his faith once having the knowledge of Christ, no longer remaining in Him, no longer believing in, hoping in, or loving Him, let alone committing grave deeds of the flesh such as those listed in Gal 5 which in themselves constitute acts against faith, hope, and love, acts against God, He won’t be pleased. If we don’t do good, if we don’t overcome sin, then we won’t be seeing Him.

God stands always with open arms like the prodigal’s father, awaiting our return. But He doesn’t force us to return, nor does He force us to remain with Him. I’d say that impacts the definition of propitiation.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, we’re talking about what God expects of man, once appeased and reconciled. Gods wrath isn’t satisfied irrespective of man’s actions IOW. For example, if a man were to turn from his faith once having the knowledge of Christ, no longer remaining in Him, no longer believing in, hoping in, or loving Him.

No, we are talking about propitiation. It’s my OP. I’m pretty confident that I know that the topic is.

 

[fhansen]

No, we are talking about propitiation. It’s my OP. I’m pretty confident that I know that the topic is.

By the OP you appear to be defining propitiation as covering all sins such that God could never send anyone, who’s received propitiation, to hell for committing them. I’m contesting that definition.

 

[Hammster]

By the OP you appear to be defining propitiation as covering all sins such that God could never send anyone, who’s received propitiation, to hell for committing them. I’m contesting that definition.

Then if propitiation doesn’t satisfy God’s wrath against all sin, then it must do something else. You’ve yet to define exactly what that is.

 

[fhansen]

Then if propitiation doesn’t satisfy God’s wrath against all sin, then it must do something else. You’ve yet to define exactly what that is.

Not at all, if you've read post #43.

 

[Hammster]

Not at all, if you've read post #43.

No, you’ve described what man should do. You haven’t defined what propitiation is. We can tell by post 43 that it isn’t a satisfaction of God’s wrath by the work of the Son because according to you, man must do something. So in 1 John 2:2, you’ve introduced something that isn’t in the text.

 

[fhansen]

No, you’ve described what man should do. You haven’t defined what propitiation is. We can tell by post 43 that it isn’t a satisfaction of God’s wrath by the work of the Son because according to you, man must do something. So in 1 John 2:2, you’ve introduced something that isn’t in the text.

Not at all. God is appeased, but won't be if we foolishly continue in sin.

 

[Hammster]

Not at all. God is appeased, but won't be if we foolishly continue in sin.

So regardless of what Christ did to appease the Father, it’s your contention that man can undo that.

 

[fhansen]

So regardless of what Christ did to appease the Father, it’s your contention that man can undo that.

Yes, we can destroy our relationship with Him all over again. You have this beautiful offer, to come to know and to love and serve God. It begins with faith in Him. But having come to this knowledge we can trample on it: Heb 10:26, 2 Pet 2:20-22, making a shipwreck of our faith even as God "wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth": 1 Tim 1:19, 2:4.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, we can destroy our relationship with Him all over again.

So to sum up, what you do is greater than what Christ does since you can undo it.

 

[John Mullally]

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
— 1 John 2:1-2

It’s is commonly understood that propitiation is the atoning sacrifice that appeases God’s wrath. That’s the definition I’m going with here. Looking at this passage, we can conclude one of two things. God's wrath was satisfied for some or for all. Those who think it’s for all take “whole world” prima facia and say God loved the whole world and bore the sins of every man. Those who say it’s only for some look at the context and see the “our sins” as John’s immediate audience, and “whole world” as indicating that it’s just not his audience, but others throughout the world.

My argument against the former is that if God’s wrath is satisfied by His Son’s sacrifice, then He would be unjust for sending anyone to hell. It would be akin to someone paying off my house in full, yet the bank foreclosing on my house. That would not be just.

So it’s best to see “whole world” as referencing people throughout the world, as opposed to every single person in the world.

Jesus atoned for all man's sin. 1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 2:6 show that Jesus provides atonement for all people - but as I will show that atonement is applied conditionally.

Since Jesus took upon Himself the “sin of the world,” (John 1:29), His atonement is therefore available to all, though is only applied whenever people place their faith in Him, just like His illustration at John 3:14-15 of Numbers 21:6-9 shows. Before a person looked upon the serpent on a standard, was anyone healed? Before a person believes in Jesus, is anyone saved? God Himself established the condition.

Numbers 21:8 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.​

​

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”​

Jesus is the Savior for all men. 1 Timothy 2:4 says that God desires all men to be saved and in keeping 1 Timothy 4:10 says that God is the Savior of all men - but salvation is only applied to believers. Notice that although 1 Timothy 4:10 says that God is the Savior of all men, especially establishes a distinction for believers. Only believers are saved (John 5:24).

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.​

​

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.​

​

Summary. Jesus died for everyone so that anyone in the world who believes in Him will be saved. God loved the world and gifted it with a Savior, so that if anyone in the world believes in Him, will not perish but have eternal life. So, if anyone should perish in unbelief, they perished despite an atonement that was sufficient for their salvation.