My Gospel by Paul

[Sorn]

No one requires God to do anything - he chooses to, in his mercy and grace. And he does not make a record of our salvation for "when the time comes".

right, so you choose option B because you have God doing stuff, willingly or otherwise does not matter. Because He is doing stuff its not option A so its it therefore option b - only 2 options.

As to the 'record' like really, do you not get the concept of an analogy or metaphor??

 

[Strong in Him]

right, so you choose option B because you have God doing stuff, willingly or otherwise does not matter. Because He is doing stuff its not option A so its it therefore option b - only 2 options.

Whatever you say.

 

[Guojing]

No, it's obvious.
The Holy Spirit is not mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:14 - that was my point from the beginning.
For any teaching/info on the Holy Spirit you have to look at other passages - John 3:3, Romans 8, Ephesians 1:3.

The Holy Spirit is part of, and involved in, the Gospel, as without him, a person cannot be born again. It is not 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 which teaches this. Therefore 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not contain the whole Gospel, or everything about the Gospel.
I don't know how much more clearly I can say it.

I am saying you are overly complicating matters.

If an unbeliever comes to tell you, "What do I need to believe in to be saved", you tell him to believe that Christ died for his sins and that he rose again on the 3rd day.

And that's all.

fyi "born again" is not required, John 3:3 was directed only to the nation of Israel and it is about the gospel of the kingdom, which is NOT the gospel that saves anyone today.

 

[Strong in Him]

I am saying you are overly complicating matters.

If an unbeliever comes to tell you, "What do I need to believe in to be saved", you tell him to believe that Christ died for his sins and that he rose again on the 3rd day.

You might.
I'd ask him what he thought about Jesus and explain that he was both man and God.
I'd tell him what Jesus taught, what he claimed and that he was raised on the 3rd day to prove that he was who he had claimed to have been, Romans 1:2-3.
I'd tell the unbeliever that he had sinned - even if he considered himself to be a good person and his misdemeanours not "too bad" - and that without repentance would live forever without God.
I'd tell him that Jesus says we need to be born again, because without that we won't enter the Kingdom of God - which is present wherever God is allowed to rule as king, and is a place where the blind see, the hungry are fed, the sick cured and the prisoners set free. A person who is born again is a NEW creation, 2 Corinthians 5:17, a child of God, John 1:12, Romans 8:16-17 and lives life in the Spirit as opposed to the flesh, Romans 8.

I'd tell them not to listen to anyone who believes there is more than one Gospel.

 

[Guojing]

You might.
I'd ask him what he thought about Jesus and explain that he was both man and God.
I'd tell him what Jesus taught, what he claimed and that he was raised on the 3rd day to prove that he was who he had claimed to have been, Romans 1:2-3.
I'd tell the unbeliever that he had sinned - even if he considered himself to be a good person and his misdemeanours not "too bad" - and that without repentance would live forever without God.
I'd tell him that Jesus says we need to be born again, because without that we won't enter the Kingdom of God - which is present wherever God is allowed to rule as king, and is a place where the blind see, the hungry are fed, the sick cured and the prisoners set free. A person who is born again is a NEW creation, 2 Corinthians 5:17, a child of God, John 1:12, Romans 8:16-17 and lives life in the Spirit as opposed to the flesh, Romans 8.

I'd tell them not to listen to anyone who believes there is more than one Gospel.

You did everything except telling him "how to get saved".

Unless what you meant in your conclusion is that if he understood and believe everything you said, he is saved?

 

[Strong in Him]

You did everything except telling him "how to get saved".

Believing in, and accepting, Jesus means believing in who he was and what he claimed and taught.
Lots of people say they believe in Jesus - i.e. that he existed. It doesn't mean they know him.

 

[Guojing]

Believing in, and accepting, Jesus means believing in who he was and what he claimed and taught.
Lots of people say they believe in Jesus - i.e. that he existed. It doesn't mean they know him.

Jesus taught many things.

You mean I must believe everything he taught, before I can be saved?

 

[Strong in Him]

Jesus taught many things.

Specifically that he had come to seek and save the lost, Luke 19:10, to give his life as a ransom for many, Mark 10:45 and that it was God's will that we should have eternal life, John 6:40, John 17:3 which he had come to give, John 10:10.

 

[Guojing]

Specifically that he had come to seek and save the lost, Luke 19:10, to give his life as a ransom for many, Mark 10:45 and that it was God's will that we should have eternal life, John 6:40, John 17:3 which he had come to give, John 10:10.

So, to be clear on what you are saying, if an unbeliever asks you what must he believe in to be saved?

You will specifically say he must believe

1. he had come to seek and save the lost, Luke 19:10
2. he give his life as a ransom for many, Mark 10:45
3. it was God's will that we should have eternal life, John 6:40, John 17:3 which he had come to give, John 10:10.

If he believes all these 3 things, he is saved?

Is that your salvation gospel?

 

[Strong in Him]

So, to be clear on what you are saying, if an unbeliever asks you what must he believe in to be saved?

You will specifically say he must believe

1. he had come to seek and save the lost, Luke 19:10
2. he give his life as a ransom for many, Mark 10:45
3. it was God's will that we should have eternal life, John 6:40, John 17:3 which he had come to give, John 10:10.

If he believes all these 3 things, he is saved?

Is that your salvation gospel?

The Gospel is Jesus.
If someone asks me what they must do to be saved I would say "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved", Acts 16:31.

But believing in Jesus does not just mean believing in him as a historical figure. It means believing in what he claimed about himself; his words and actions. And he told us - amongst other things - that he is the only Way to the Father, that he gives eternal life, that he came to give his life as a ransom for many and that his blood was shed for the forgiveness of sins. When he was on earth he used God's own name and forgave sins, which only God could do. The Jews knew that he was claiming to be God; that is why they crucified him. Jesus spoke of his death and resurrection - and he was raised from the dead.
What I'm saying is that believing in Jesus is more than agreeing that he existed. A person can have head knowledge about Jesus and assent to some of his teaching without really accepting him, knowing that he died for their sins and they can be forgiven and reconciled to God. Someone can be a church goer all their lives, be able to repeat Jesus' teaching, Bible parables and the Nicene Creed and yet not really know God, so that he makes a difference in their day to day lives.

 

[Sorn]

"knowing that he died for their sins and they can be forgiven and reconciled to God."

If someone does this or says 'I know this to be the case' then they are believing in Jesus & are saved.
If they say I know He claimed to be God & that He claimed to have died for my sins but really, thats just what He thought He was doing, then they are not saved as they do not believe its actually true

 

[Guojing]

The Gospel is Jesus.
If someone asks me what they must do to be saved I would say "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved", Acts 16:31.

But believing in Jesus does not just mean believing in him as a historical figure. It means believing in what he claimed about himself; his words and actions. And he told us - amongst other things - that he is the only Way to the Father, that he gives eternal life, that he came to give his life as a ransom for many and that his blood was shed for the forgiveness of sins. When he was on earth he used God's own name and forgave sins, which only God could do. The Jews knew that he was claiming to be God; that is why they crucified him. Jesus spoke of his death and resurrection - and he was raised from the dead.
What I'm saying is that believing in Jesus is more than agreeing that he existed. A person can have head knowledge about Jesus and assent to some of his teaching without really accepting him, knowing that he died for their sins and they can be forgiven and reconciled to God. Someone can be a church goer all their lives, be able to repeat Jesus' teaching, Bible parables and the Nicene Creed and yet not really know God, so that he makes a difference in their day to day lives.

So is your answer to my clarifying question a yes, or are you now adding more things to believe about Jesus?

 

[Strong in Him]

So is your answer to my clarifying question a yes, or are you now adding more things to believe about Jesus?

I'm saying that believing in Jesus means believing in Jesus - in who he was and what he claimed about himself.
Muslims believe in Jesus, but that he was a prophet. Hindus say that he is one of many gods. JWs, Mormons, Moonies etc believe in Jesus, but not that he was God.
Are they Christians?

 

[Guojing]

I'm saying that believing in Jesus means believing in Jesus - in who he was and what he claimed about himself.

Again, I am asking a very basic question,

What must an unbeliever believe about Jesus in order to be saved?

You have yet to give a clear answer, as I have given.

If you don't even know, then that unbeliever will be confused.

 

[Strong in Him]

Again, I am asking a very basic question,

What must an unbeliever believe about Jesus in order to be saved?

You have yet to give a clear answer, as I have given.

I've told you.
Jesus said that he is the only Way to the Father, John 4:6. He said that he had come to give eternal life, John 3:16, John 6:29, John 6:40, John 10:10, John 17:3. He said that he had come to seek and save the lost, Luke 19:10, that he had come to give his life as a ransom for many, Mark 10:45, that his blood would be shed for the forgiveness of sins.
He claimed to be God, and the Jews knew it; that is why they had him crucified. He also said that he and the Father are one and that anyone who had seen him had seen the Father.
John commented that anyone who believes in Jesus is able to become a child of God.

So we can only come to God through Jesus.
We can only have eternal life through Jesus.
We can only be forgiven by God through Jesus.

If a person is told that Jesus is the only way to the Father, they need to decide whether or not to believe it. They also need to answer, for themselves, the question that Jesus asked his disciples "who do you say that I am?"
If a non Christian's answer to that is "you are a good man with some interesting teachings, or a unique philosophical world view", or "you are/were not God and what you said about giving your life for many, was not true"; they don't believe in Jesus.

I've said that believing in Jesus means believing in his claims and who he was.

 

[Guojing]

I've told you.
Jesus said that he is the only Way to the Father, John 4:6. He said that he had come to give eternal life, John 3:16, John 6:29, John 6:40, John 10:10, John 17:3. He said that he had come to seek and save the lost, Luke 19:10, that he had come to give his life as a ransom for many, Mark 10:45, that his blood would be shed for the forgiveness of sins.

I've said that believing in Jesus means believing in his claims and who he was.

So, to confirm, all you need to believe are these claims you listed here, and you are saved?

 

[Strong in Him]

So, to confirm, all you need to believe are these claims you listed here, and you are saved?

Anyone who believes that Jesus was who he said he was - which involves believing that he said that he was God, that he preached repentance, that he died for our sins, that he was raised from the dead (as he himself had said) and that he gives eternal life and is the only way to the Father, is saved.

You say "all you need to believe " these are pretty big claims! A non Christian would almost certainly question - "why must I believe ....?" "how do I know .....? "How could Jesus be God?" etc, and this would lead to discussion and involve studying the Scriptures. And the Christian would almost certainly be praying and asking for God's help while this was going on - hence the Holy Spirit.

 

[Guojing]

Anyone who believes that Jesus was who he said he was - which involves believing that he said that he was God, that he preached repentance, that he died for our sins, that he was raised from the dead (as he himself had said) and that he gives eternal life and is the only way to the Father, is saved.

You say "all you need to believe " these are pretty big claims! A non Christian would almost certainly question - "why must I believe ....?" "how do I know .....? "How could Jesus be God?" etc, and this would lead to discussion and involve studying the Scriptures. And the Christian would almost certainly be praying and asking for God's help while this was going on - hence the Holy Spirit.

You keep adding new stuff every time I ask you to confirm the gospel that you believe in.

Alright then, I just take it that you have no idea exactly what one needs to believe about Jesus, in order to be saved.

Just like my analogy about the Passover night in Egypt, you take what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, but because you doubt its sufficiency in saving you, you add all kinds of stuff about Jesus you find in the 4 gospel accounts, to "play safe".

 

[Guojing]

Anyone who believes that Jesus was who he said he was - which involves believing that he said that he was God, that he preached repentance, that he died for our sins, that he was raised from the dead (as he himself had said) and that he gives eternal life and is the only way to the Father, is saved.

You say "all you need to believe " these are pretty big claims! A non Christian would almost certainly question - "why must I believe ....?" "how do I know .....? "How could Jesus be God?" etc, and this would lead to discussion and involve studying the Scriptures. And the Christian would almost certainly be praying and asking for God's help while this was going on - hence the Holy Spirit.

But I have to say, I noticed one thing interesting, out of all these additions, you never once mentioned water baptism.

Now that is certainly an addition that many Christians like to include. Is there a reason why you never mentioned that?

 

[Strong in Him]

You keep adding new stuff every time I ask you to confirm the gospel that you believe in.

Alright then, I just take it that you have no idea exactly what one needs to believe about Jesus, in order to be saved.

Just like my analogy about the Passover night in Egypt, you take what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, but because you doubt its sufficiency in saving you, you add all kinds of stuff about Jesus you find in the 4 gospel accounts, to "play safe".

Believing in Jesus means believing in, and accepting who he was and what he claimed/taught - why don't you get that?
All I have been doing is explaining his teachings and claims.
A person - e.g. Muslim, cult member - who says they believe in Jesus but does not accept that he was God, does not really believe in him.

I'm sorry if you don't understand that.