My Epiphany

ottawak

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I am not dictating what Christians can believe. I am saying that if Jesus upholds creationism, Adam and Eve, and the flood, and you say creationism, Adam and Eve, and the flood didn't happen because science says it didn't happen, then that would mean Jesus was lying about those things. Was Jesus simply ignorant about those things, even though it says in John 1:1 that "in the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God, and the word was God?" That nothing could be made without Him and He was there for all of it? If you believe in Jesus, then I would take His word over that of a scientist considering Jesus took part in the creation and that scientist really has no clue.
John 1:1 says nothing about evolution, one way or the other. It merely affirms the belief that God is author of all, a belief entirely consistent with evolutionary theory.

To believe in God means supernatural events took place that naturalistic studies cannot comprehend or account for. So why do Christians, who believe in miracles and supernatural events, believe in man-made science and naturalistic explanations?
Because sometimes science gets it righty, and doesn't rule out miracles.
 
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Saucy

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I'd contend that the fact that Jesus is represented by the Gospel writers as affirming the existence of Adam and Eve doesn't mean that "Jesus was lying" if there was, in fact, no Adam or Eve.

In short, with all of the factors that go into our attempts to understand what we think it is we're reading in the New Testament, to say "Jesus was lying" in this case is a non-sequitur since our historical and epistemolgoical claims to "knowing" what Jesus thought and said are piecemealed through the filter of other authors.

It's not so simple as what you're saying, which in hindsight is a fortunate things for all of us, really.
Do you have any resources that might help me out with what you're saying? Because if scripture says Adam and Eve lived, but they didn't, then that means Moses and Jesus and anyone else, like Paul, who mentioned them as literal people, either didn't know what they were talking about or were lying. I mean, this is the whole reason for Jesus' sacrifice. Sin entered the world through one man and He redeemed us. Now, come to find out, there was really no curse, everything has been living and dying for billions of years and the bible can't be trusted. It is an all-or-nothing proposition. It seems quite impossible to take the scope of everything said and try to fit that into an old earth theory.

I know I seem to be contradictory, saying I don't have a problem with old earth. I'm having a difficult time explaining what I mean. I guess years of believing the earth is 4.3 billion years old doesn't die hard. But at the same time, the very words of Jesus and biblical writings contradict the old world idea. I'm having a difficult time putting it all together.
 
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Saucy

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John 1:1 says nothing about evolution, one way or the other. It merely affirms the belief that God is author of all, a belief entirely consistent with evolutionary theory.

Because sometimes science gets it righty, and doesn't rule out miracles.
No, but it says Jesus was there in the very beginning with God and Jesus speaks about Adam and Eve and the flood being real events. Wouldn't He have said the earth was old and life evolved? How did the curse come in if life has been dying for eons? What are we even being redeemed for then if there was no curse and no Adam and Eve? It just doesn't fit to me.
 
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ottawak

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No, but it says Jesus was there in the very beginning with God and Jesus speaks about Adam and Eve and the flood being real events.
That is a conclusion, not an objective fact about Jesus' statements (even assuming they were recorded accurately).
Wouldn't He have said the earth was old and life evolved?
Why? Do you think that story was intended to tell us about science?
How did the curse come in if life has been dying for eons? What are we even being redeemed for then if there was no curse and no Adam and Eve? It just doesn't fit to me.
Logic fail. "Denying the antecendent" is a fallacy of formal logic. Try again.
 
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Saucy

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That is a conclusion, not an objective fact about Jesus' statements (even assuming they were recorded accurately). Why? Do you think that story was intended to tell us about science?Logic fail. "Denying the antecendent" is a fallacy of formal logic. Try again.
I'm asking questions. Maybe you could be more gracious and offer answers you seem to have? You guys keep telling me I'm wrong and my logic fails but haven't offered a single thing.
 
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ottawak

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I'm asking questions. Maybe you could be more gracious and offer answers you seem to have? You guys keep telling me I'm wrong and my logic fails but haven't offered a single thing.
In formal logic, the truth of the proposition "If P then Q" does not guarantee the truth of the inverse statement "If not P then not Q."

For example, the truth of the statement "If I fall in the river I will get wet" does not guarantee the truth of the statement "If I don't fall in the river I won't get wet." It could rain or I could take a bath and get wet anyway.

Applied to Genesis, we have a true statement: "If Genesis is literal and inerrant we are sinners in need of redemption." But you cannot conclude from it that "If Genesis is not literal and inerrant then we are not sinners in need of redemption."
 
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Halbhh

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Exceptin' it aint a flower and it aint unfoldin'
You want to recognize a metaphor when one is used. Like calling nature a "flower" that "unfolds".

And the way to tell this is metaphor is that it clearly cannot be a non-metaphor. It would make no sense at all to claim nature is literally only a flower.

Calling nature a flower is a wonderful metaphor, really....

But if you happen to prefer another metaphor, I'm quite willing to consider them.... :) (I don't much like the turtle one though)
 
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Halbhh

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That doesn't answer my question.

Again, why is it that the mammal's ear design appears only after a series of incremental steps in the design get progressively closer to the mammalian ear? I say that happens because the mammal's middle ear evolved over time. How do you explain it?

Definitely evolution. That's just the basics.

How I'd answer: something like convergent evolution.

I thought I'd search up an example elucidating this, and a handy one shows up you might like actually, if you read the interesting abstract at the top:
Evolution of the Mammalian Ear: An Evolvability Hypothesis
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Do you have any resources that might help me out with what you're saying? Because if scripture says Adam and Eve lived, but they didn't, then that means Moses and Jesus and anyone else, like Paul, who mentioned them as literal people, either didn't know what they were talking about or were lying. I mean, this is the whole reason for Jesus' sacrifice. Sin entered the world through one man and He redeemed us. Now, come to find out, there was really no curse, everything has been living and dying for billions of years and the bible can't be trusted. It is an all-or-nothing proposition. It seems quite impossible to take the scope of everything said and try to fit that into an old earth theory.
Yes, I have quite a few resources on these matters, but unfortunately none of them are free. I might be able to scrounge up some that are more accessible, but I rely mainly on my books. Regardless, I'm more than happy to name a few of my resources or even to have a joint read/study with you on these books I have.

As for your initial qualification about the inconsistency that seems to exists in the possible choices we have in appraising the epistemic integrity level of Moses, Jesus and Paul, I think you have a false dichotomy running that is causing you some problems. That's ok. I get it. This stuff is difficult to wrestle with, Saucy, so I don't blame you for thinking it's a big hurdle to get over. But even if it can't be fully solved, it can be ameliorated if we allow ourselves to become better aware of the philosophical assumptions we may have when thinking about the world or even when reading the Bible, and our faith doesn't have to take too many dings in order to do so.

I know I seem to be contradictory, saying I don't have a problem with old earth. I'm having a difficult time explaining what I mean. I guess years of believing the earth is 4.3 billion years old doesn't die hard. But at the same time, the very words of Jesus and biblical writings contradict the old world idea. I'm having a difficult time putting it all together.
I think I understand what you mean. I've been in the middle of this for quite some time myself, and there's a lot to sort through in order for it to re-congeal in our minds so we can have another way of seeing it all.
 
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Estrid

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You want to recognize a metaphor when one is used. Like calling nature a "flower" that "unfolds".

And the way to tell this is metaphor is that it clearly cannot be a non-metaphor. It would make no sense at all to claim nature is literally only a flower.

Calling nature a flower is a wonderful metaphor, really....

But if you happen to prefer another metaphor, I'm quite willing to consider them.... :) (I don't much like the turtle one though)

I know what metaphors are, and my English proficiency
is at least equal to yours.
 
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Halbhh

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I know what metaphors are, and my English proficiency
is at least equal to yours.
So, speaking non metaphorically, nature has played out according to the laws of physics (we understand quite a bit of physics, but there is more to discover).

You could reasonably say the Universe has "unfolded" according to physics. Of course 'unfolded' is a metaphor.

You could metaphorically say that Nature has unfolded like a flower. It's not precise or exact wording, of course. It's poetical. (That's kinda the point.)

So, consider: do you really object? If so, is it that you object to seeing nature as being physics in action, or is it another reason? Can you elucidate?
 
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SelfSim

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So, speaking non metaphorically, nature has played out according to the laws of physics (we understand quite a bit of physics, but there is more to discover).
The way 'nature has played out' there, actually permits human scientific thinkers to distill what we mean by the Laws of Physics.
The Laws of Physics aren't 'things' floating around in space or something, awaiting us to grab them, and then use those to obscure our perceptions of what's really going on 'in nature'.
Halbhh said:
So, consider: do you really object? If so, is it that you object to seeing nature as being physics in action, or is it another reason? Can you elucidate?
@Estrid is more than welcome to explain what she meant, (I personally think her original comment may have only been in jest?)

However, I'm not so sure I'd uproariously agree with 'seeing nature as being physics in action', as this demonstrates a somewhat ambiguous degree in clarity of scientific thinking, there(?) I personally think that's a little backwards. We observe, then describe in modelling terms, which then gives what we mean when we use the term: 'nature'.
We then take note of in common dynamic and static behaviours and then distill those observations, sometimes into Laws, tests, Theories, etc.
'Physics' then, describes the process we follow in doing that.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Do you have any resources that might help me out with what you're saying? Because if scripture says Adam and Eve lived, but they didn't, then that means Moses and Jesus and anyone else, like Paul, who mentioned them as literal people, either didn't know what they were talking about or were lying.

Where does Jesus mention Adam and Eve as literal people?
 
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Halbhh

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The way 'nature has played out' there, actually permits human scientific thinkers to distill what we mean by the Laws of Physics.
The Laws of Physics aren't 'things' floating around in space or something, awaiting us to grab them, and then use those to obscure our perceptions of what's really going on 'in nature'.
@Estrid is more than welcome to explain what she meant, (I personally think her original comment may have only been in jest?)

However, I'm not so sure I'd uproariously agree with 'seeing nature as being physics in action', as this demonstrates a somewhat ambiguous degree in clarity of scientific thinking, there(?) I personally think that's a little backwards. We observe, then describe in modelling terms, which then gives what we mean when we use the term: 'nature'.
We then take note of in common dynamic and static behaviours and then distill those observations, sometimes into Laws, tests, Theories, etc.
'Physics' then, describes the process we follow in doing that.
Yes, the process/work to discover of course, that's right. But, also, physicists use the word additionally for the actual operation of nature. The actual stuff observed. Nature literally is physics in action is our common belief. Two meanings for the word, in the common parlance of physicists. :)
 
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SelfSim

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Yes, the process/work to discover of course, that's right.
I don't think you quite got my point there(?) 'Discover' there, is a highly misleading term .. I deliberately didn't use it, namely because .. its misleading.
If anything, the only things science is ever 'discovering' are new meanings inferred from objective observations, for adding to its models of objective reality. These meanings then form additional, consistent bases for whenever 'reality' (or 'exists') becomes the primary focus of some topic/debate.
My point in raising this is that, in a sense, your usage of the term 'discover' is allegorical too.
I'm not sure you recognise that, yet you seem to be relying on posits of objects/things existing independently from our scientific concepts/meanings and therefore, must simply be awaiting our 'discovering' them. This idea comes directly from philosophical Realism .. not science. Its an objectively untestable inference that you're using to counter certain points being raised in these sub-conversations.
Halbhh said:
But, also, physicists use the word additionally for the actual operation of nature. The actual stuff observed. Nature literally is physics in action is our common belief. Two meanings for the word, in the common parlance of physicists. :)
Sure physicists are humans and use common short-cut language expressions too, but that is beside the point.
The point is, there is no 'actual operation of nature' of reality in the literal sense, which actually exists independently from the meanings we assign to those behaviours. That phrase (in italics there), is allegorical too. I'm not sure you recognise that(?)
Yes, the process/work to discover of course, that's right. But, also, physicists use the word additionally for the actual operation of nature. The actual stuff observed. Nature literally is physics in action is our common belief. Two meanings for the word, in the common parlance of physicists. :)
No .. see my above points. What physicists say, (in short-cut, common language expressions), does not form the basis for debates on matters concerning science, or its definitions of objective reality. Yet, you appear to be relying on these expression as being such, in this instance.
 
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Estrid

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Arguably Matthew 19:4-6 and Mark 10:6-9 when referring to passages in Genesis 1 & 2

Anything is arguable.
But I figure, if Jesus etc were who they say, they
knew what was literal and what was not.

As is evident to any but the most recalcitrent /
uneducated that certain things are not historic.

The " fool or liar" thing about Jesus is rather tacky
at best.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Arguably Matthew 19:4-6 and Mark 10:6-9 when referring to passages in Genesis 1 & 2

As you say, arguably. But to me these are pretty oblique references without even naming them, which seems a far cry from Jesus "mention[ing] them as literal people".
 
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doubtingmerle

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Now you're just mocking and trying to discredit my testimony. Yes, I gave my entire life to Jesus because there was a cute girl in youth group despite the fact I've never stepped foot in church my entire life. :sigh::sigh: I'm not that shallow!

In reality, my decision to choose Jesus wasn't my first option. I explored all things supernatural. I gravitated towards the occult. Bought books by psychics who claimed to understand the afterlife. I told my good friend who just got out of the Marines and he invited me to church. He himself was lapsed in his faith and didn't think much about Jesus, but just had a feeling he was meant to invite me to his parent's church. Neither one of us were the same. A hardened Marine and a staunch atheist gave our lives to Jesus.
Saucy, I am not mocking you. I am just pointing out that the story you gave here is in no way comparable with mine as written in the OP.

I was a studied Creationist making arguments in online forums. By contrast, you describe yourself as a former teenager that was apathetic toward religion. That is not comparable.

In the OP, I describe how the magnitude of the facts I was up against gave me pause. You can only tell us that once you heard a voice talking to you about life and death, a voice that nobody else heard. I tend to doubt you actually heard a voice, but I, of course, don't know. I suspect that you are in an environment where it is socially advantageous to tell such stories, and so your story grew with each telling. If, on the other hand, your story is true, then I was not joking or mocking when I suggested seeing a doctor. Hearing voices in your head talking to you about death accompanied by months of mental trauma is a serious concern. I would see a doctor if it happened to me.

Overwhelming facts can and should be a reason to change one's opinion. Hearing voices in your head? Not so much.

So far we have seen nothing to validate your claim of you being a former studied atheist evolutionist. I asked for a source you relied on, and an argument you found convincing when you were an atheist. You gave neither. Could it be you did not respond because you never knew strong arguments for atheism or evolution (and hence were never a studied evolution defender)?

You speak as though the mere fact that you converted must be evidence that the faith and the creationism you adopted are real. That simply is not a valid argument. People convert for many reasons. In America, for instance, there is often strong social benefits to going with the crowd and adopting the majority religion. That does not prove that this religion is right.

You posted a link to a site that claims a failed Isochron dating in Austrailia. I am not familiar with this particular case, but I am well aware of Creationist attempts to discredit radiometric dating. They find a case where a measurement technique did not apply, and conclude that radiometric dating is never accurate. That is just silly.

That is like saying you put a garden thermometer in the oven and it did not tell you the correct temperature of the oven. Therefore, garden thermometers are useless. That simply does not follow. Finding instances where a garden thermometer does not work does not discredit other uses of that thermometer.

You posted a link with a supposed hole in the evolutionary viewpoint. Are you qualified to judge whether the argument the writer makes is valid? Lots of people can make arguments that fool uninformed people. That does not prove that what they wrote is science. Rather, they need to be able to convince those who do understand the science.

And I can assure you, the link you gave did not convince those who understand radiometric dating to abandon radiometric dating.

For more on why we judge radiometric dating to be reliable see Radiometric Dating - A Christian Perspective .
 
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Bungle_Bear

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As you say, arguably. But to me these are pretty oblique references without even naming them, which seems a far cry from Jesus "mention[ing] them as literal people".
Oh, I agree 100%. Jesus doesn't mention them at all directly. But the argument has been made elsewhere that by referring to Genesis 1&2 that Jesus was somehow rubber-stamping the story. Of course, highly biased 3rd or 4th hand accounts of what Jesus is claimed to have said are hardly going to be the most reliable sources, are they?
 
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