LDS It seems to me if the gold plates ever existed...

[Daniel Marsh]

It seems to me if the gold plates ever existed, LDS leaders would ask God to bring them back down to earth for modern LDS scholars and non LDS scholars to translate them into modern English.

After all, we know that there has been thousands of changes to the BOM.

Introduction to 3,913 Changes

 

[hislegacy]

If the Tablets Moses brought down ever existed, Catholic Leaders would ask God to show where they are for Christian Scholars to translate into English.

I believe your premise is flawed.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

If the Tablets Moses brought down ever existed, Catholic Leaders would ask God to show where they are for Christian Scholars to translate into English.

I believe your premise is flawed.

Or how about if the Bible was really the real Holy Book we would get updates from the heaven since there seems to be lots of issues with different versions, language changing over time and what not.

Yeah, the logic fails unless you go for special pleading.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

If the Tablets Moses brought down ever existed, Catholic Leaders would ask God to show where they are for Christian Scholars to translate into English.

I believe your premise is flawed.

Not flawed friend. There have been thousands of changes to the BOM over the years. The BOM text puts people to sleep. If it were in modern English with all the poor grammar corrected. More People may find it interesting.

After all, besides a few people claims they seen the gold plates with their "spiritual eyes", there really is no proof they ever existed.

David Whitmer wrote in 1887:

“Of course we were in the spirit when we had the view, for no man can behold the face of an angel, except in a spiritual view, but we were in the body also, and everything was as natural to us, as it is at any time. Martin Harris . . . called it ‘being in vision’. . . .A bright light enveloped us where we were . . . and there in a vision, or in the spirit, we saw and heard just as it is stated in my testimony in the Book of Mormon” (Milton V. Backman, Jr., Eyewitness Accounts of the Restoration, pp.138-139. Ellipses his).


Witnesses | Mormon Storieswww.mormonstories.org › the-book-of-mormon › boo...
[4] Like Oliver Cowdery, he claimed to have seen the gold plates in a vision ... saw or handled physical plates; they were seen only with “spiritual eyes” in faith.

The Eleven Witnesses | Religious Studies Centerrsc.byu.edu › coming-forth-book-mormon › eleven-wit...
It is remarkable to have depositions by eleven men of the gold plates' existence, ... [11] They claim Martin Harris saw only “with the spiritual eye” and rely on ...

Debunking FairMormon - Letter to a CES Director - Witnessescesletter.org › debunking-fairmormon › witnesses
Jun 4, 2014 — I have seen the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon is written. ... that the man believed in second sight, or seeing through spiritual eyes.

 

[Albion]

Daniel Marsh has a point. A translation of the Ten Commandments or the whole Bible is not in the same category as the BOM which has had (last I heard) 3,000 corrections made to it.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

Daniel Marsh has a point. A translation of the Ten Commandments or the whole Bible is not in the same category as the BOM which has had (last I heard) 3,000 corrections made to it.

Funny that it matters how many errors there are instead of there being none.

BOM has 3000 corrections and the Bible has only changed the language 2567 times so my Holy Book is more real ?

The logic still seems bit questionable.

 

[Hrairoo]

Funny that it matters how many errors there are instead of there being none.

BOM has 3000 corrections and the Bible has only changed the language 2567 times so my Holy Book is more real ?

The logic still seems bit questionable.

It's the claims made by the LDS that validate. They claim that Joseph Smith got the words directly from a seer stone that allowed him to receive revelation from God. It was such a precise process that the scribe working with Joseph had to write down the spelling of strange names correctly or get the wording exactly right or they would not be able to move on.

LDS claim that the Bible cannot be trusted totally as the word of God because of how many transcriptions and translations it has gone through. In fact, this corruption of the text was so monumental that there needed to be a Restoration through Joseph Smith of Christ's true church. All other books, churches, and claims to authority are not only false but actually churches of the Devil, according to LDS.

1 Nephi 14:10: “And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth.”

There are only two choices and the LDS claim their church is the church of the Lamb of God. The Book of Mormon is perfectly trusted by them as being accurate and true because the revelation process was done by the authority of God.

There are two different standards being used here. This thread is not just a presentation of logic but a challenge to this LDS framework of belief.

 

[dzheremi]

I don't recall any particular translation of the Bible being presented as miraculous in itself (barring certain extreme KJV Onlyists, who are certainly not 'orthodox' in this sense vis-a-vis wider Christianity in a manner that would be akin to the belief of orthodox Mormonism concerning the BOM), nor being made by the translator(s) in question via the 'magic rock in a hat' method of Joseph Smith.

It bears keeping in mind that the account of those who worked with JS in the 'translation' process specified that JS was not allowed to continue to the next line of text in the original unless it had been verified as being correct. Here I would cite Martin Harris, who described the process as follows to Edward Stevenson, his friend and future LDS seventy member (from Mormon Think's summation of the translation process; emphasis added by me):

[...] He [Harris] said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say "Written," and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used.​

The bolded section is not a feature of any known translation of the Bible.

Comparisons between the BOM and the Bible concerning translation methods are not actually comparing like with like, as translations of the Bible do not rely on supernatural correctives as above (thereby making any scribal errors in the Bible much easier to deal with), and are actual translations of extant writings. Neither of these are true with regard to the BOM.

 

[He is the way]

It seems to me if the gold plates ever existed, LDS leaders would ask God to bring them back down to earth for modern LDS scholars and non LDS scholars to translate them into modern English.

After all, we know that there has been thousands of changes to the BOM.

Introduction to 3,913 Changes

So you believe we should tell God what He should do? I believe He took them back for a purpose. We need to have faith.

 

[He is the way]

Not flawed friend. There have been thousands of changes to the BOM over the years. The BOM text puts people to sleep. If it were in modern English with all the poor grammar corrected. More People may find it interesting.

After all, besides a few people claims they seen the gold plates with their "spiritual eyes", there really is no proof they ever existed.

David Whitmer wrote in 1887:

“Of course we were in the spirit when we had the view, for no man can behold the face of an angel, except in a spiritual view, but we were in the body also, and everything was as natural to us, as it is at any time. Martin Harris . . . called it ‘being in vision’. . . .A bright light enveloped us where we were . . . and there in a vision, or in the spirit, we saw and heard just as it is stated in my testimony in the Book of Mormon” (Milton V. Backman, Jr., Eyewitness Accounts of the Restoration, pp.138-139. Ellipses his).


Witnesses | Mormon Storieswww.mormonstories.org › the-book-of-mormon › boo...
[4] Like Oliver Cowdery, he claimed to have seen the gold plates in a vision ... saw or handled physical plates; they were seen only with “spiritual eyes” in faith.

The Eleven Witnesses | Religious Studies Centerrsc.byu.edu › coming-forth-book-mormon › eleven-wit...
It is remarkable to have depositions by eleven men of the gold plates' existence, ... [11] They claim Martin Harris saw only “with the spiritual eye” and rely on ...

Debunking FairMormon - Letter to a CES Director - Witnessescesletter.org › debunking-fairmormon › witnesses
Jun 4, 2014 — I have seen the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon is written. ... that the man believed in second sight, or seeing through spiritual eyes.

The eight witnesses saw and handled the plates:

(Book of Mormon | Preface 8 Witnesses:Heading - 1)

THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES

1 BE IT KNOWN unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

CHRISTIAN WHITMER
HIRAM PAGE
JACOB WHITMER
JOSEPH SMITH, SEN.
PETER WHITMER, JUN.
HYRUM SMITH
JOHN WHITMER
SAMUEL H. SMITH

 

[He is the way]

It's the claims made by the LDS that validate. They claim that Joseph Smith got the words directly from a seer stone that allowed him to receive revelation from God. It was such a precise process that the scribe working with Joseph had to write down the spelling of strange names correctly or get the wording exactly right or they would not be able to move on.

LDS claim that the Bible cannot be trusted totally as the word of God because of how many transcriptions and translations it has gone through. In fact, this corruption of the text was so monumental that there needed to be a Restoration through Joseph Smith of Christ's true church. All other books, churches, and claims to authority are not only false but actually churches of the Devil, according to LDS.

1 Nephi 14:10: “And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth.”

There are only two choices and the LDS claim their church is the church of the Lamb of God. The Book of Mormon is perfectly trusted by them as being accurate and true because the revelation process was done by the authority of God.

There are two different standards being used here. This thread is not just a presentation of logic but a challenge to this LDS framework of belief.

There are only two churches on the earth, the church of the devil and the church of Jesus Christ. Every church on the earth has members of both churches. The tares and the wheat are sown together every where on the earth. The good are mixed with the bad. It is up to us to choose good over evil. Being a member of any church does NOT guarantee salvation. We are not saved by works, neither are we saved without works.

 

[He is the way]

I don't recall any particular translation of the Bible being presented as miraculous in itself (barring certain extreme KJV Onlyists, who are certainly not 'orthodox' in this sense vis-a-vis wider Christianity in a manner that would be akin to the belief of orthodox Mormonism concerning the BOM), nor being made by the translator(s) in question via the 'magic rock in a hat' method of Joseph Smith.

It bears keeping in mind that the account of those who worked with JS in the 'translation' process specified that JS was not allowed to continue to the next line of text in the original unless it had been verified as being correct. Here I would cite Martin Harris, who described the process as follows to Edward Stevenson, his friend and future LDS seventy member (from Mormon Think's summation of the translation process; emphasis added by me):

[...] He [Harris] said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say "Written," and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used.​

The bolded section is not a feature of any known translation of the Bible.

Comparisons between the BOM and the Bible concerning translation methods are not actually comparing like with like, as translations of the Bible do not rely on supernatural correctives as above (thereby making any scribal errors in the Bible much easier to deal with), and are actual translations of extant writings. Neither of these are true with regard to the BOM.

Did it occur to anyone that the Book of Mormon may have been dictated just as it was written mistakes and all? There are bound to be mistakes as it was written by man as was the Bible. There were and are mistakes in the Bible also.

 

[Albion]

Did it occur to anyone that the Book of Mormon may have been dictated just as it was written mistakes and all? There are bound to be mistakes as it was written by man as was the Bible. There were and are mistakes in the Bible also.

What would account for it being written in an ersatz King James Bible style, then? That's not what anyone spoke or wrote at the time Moroni supposedly lived, and it definitely was not how Joseph Smith spoke or wrote.

 

[Hrairoo]

Did it occur to anyone that the Book of Mormon may have been dictated just as it was written mistakes and all? There are bound to be mistakes as it was written by man as was the Bible. There were and are mistakes in the Bible also.

Except it wasn't revealed from the plates. It came directly by revelation from God through the seer stone, word by word. Why would God not edit those words as he was revealing them through the stone?

 

[Hrairoo]

What would account for it being written in an ersatz King James Bible style, then? That's not what anyone spoke or wrote at the time Moroni supposedly lived, and it definitely was not how Joseph Smith spoke or wrote.

I was always told that was the language God and heavenly beings speak in. I was taught even to use thee and thou in prayer, because it is respectful.

Come to find out that it's just a way to sell it as a holy book companion to the Bible. How do you convince Biblical Christians to read and believe in your holy book? Write it in Bible-speak.

 

[He is the way]

What would account for it being written in an ersatz King James Bible style, then? That's not what anyone spoke or wrote at the time Moroni supposedly lived, and it definitely was not how Joseph Smith spoke or wrote.

Since God chose to use King James English, you should ask Him.

 

[He is the way]

Except it wasn't revealed from the plates. It came directly by revelation from God through the seer stone, word by word. Why would God not edit those words as he was revealing them through the stone?

Perhaps when the plates are returned we will see that they match the Book of Mormon mistakes and all.

 

[Hrairoo]

Since God chose to use King James English, you should ask Him.

Perhaps when the plates are returned we will see that they match the Book of Mormon mistakes and all.

Aaaaand we're done.

 

[He is the way]

Aaaaand we're done.

Actually I am looking forward to the return of the plates when the sealed portion will be unsealed and we will find out what is in there.

 

[Albion]

I was always told that was the language God and heavenly beings speak in.

Yes, I know that answer, but of course it doesn't make any sense. If it were so, then the Bible translations that came before the KJV would have been in this form, also.

Come to find out that it's just a way to sell it as a holy book companion to the Bible. How do you convince Biblical Christians to read and believe in your holy book? Write it in Bible-speak.