Isaiah's vision and the burning coal.

[salamacum]

I have a question about sanctification.
Isaiah's awareness of his own sin and the impossibility of standing in the presence of the holy God, meant he thought he would die.
So God touched his lips with a burning coal.
Nothing here to do with the sacrificial system.
Was this act of God to do with Isaiah's justification or sanctification?
Because it raises the question of how even a legally-justified believer who escapes the judgement and condemnation of God can still stand comfortably in God's glorious presence unless he is absolutely sanctified.
What provision has God made for our complete sanctification, granted that no-one will achieve perfection in this life?
All to do with 'being changed in the twinkling of an eye'? Will our sins be burned up in God's presence? Is this a prospect that can attract even the justified sinner?

 

[Phileoeklogos]

God's provision for our complete santification is Jesus Christ and Him crucified, He bore all of our sin, putting an end to it by His once for all sacrifice, we can't add or take anything away from that, He is sufficent and only in Him are we able to stand before a holy God.

 

[mlqurgw]

I have a question about sanctification.
Isaiah's awareness of his own sin and the impossibility of standing in the presence of the holy God, meant he thought he would die.
So God touched his lips with a burning coal.
Nothing here to do with the sacrificial system.
Was this act of God to do with Isaiah's justification or sanctification?
Because it raises the question of how even a legally-justified believer who escapes the judgement and condemnation of God can still stand comfortably in God's glorious presence unless he is absolutely sanctified.
What provision has God made for our complete sanctification, granted that no-one will achieve perfection in this life?
All to do with 'being changed in the twinkling of an eye'? Will our sins be burned up in God's presence? Is this a prospect that can attract even the justified sinner?

The burning coal has everything to do with the sacrifice. It was taken form off the alter and represents Christ's sacrifice.

But to answer your question about sanctification: I am going to go against Reformed teaching here folks so beware.

The Scriptures clearly teach that all believers are born of God. We are called new creatures in Christ. More than that John tells us in !John 3:9 that whosoever is born of God cannot sin becaus eHis seed remains in us. We are told in Rom. 7n and Gal. 5 that we are a people of 2 natures, flesh and spirit. that which is flesh is the natural man who is nothing but sin and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit, John 3:6. All believers are a new creation in Christ, not a reformation of the old creation but a new one. Paul tells us in Eph. 4:24 to put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. All believers have a nature that is perfectly holy and righteous and a nature that is nothing but sin. We are to live according to the holy nature by faith reckoning ourselve to be dead indeed unto sin by the death of Christ and to walk in the newness of life by the Spirit. Dors that mean we can acheive perfection in this life? Yes and no. We cannot acheive anything other than sin by our old man the flesh but our new man, the sed of Christ in us is a perfect man. We just don't live according to that perfect man as we ought.

Sanctification isn't a process by which we reform the old man and make him better but an act of God by which we are made holy. The old man doesn't need to be taken to the hospital of grace to be healed he must be taken to the cross to be crucified.

 

[salamacum]

< < Paul tells us in Eph. 4:24 to put on the new man, > >
Who is he telling? Those already justified and who need now to be sanctified.
< < Dors that mean we can acheive perfection in this life? Yes and no. We cannot acheive anything other than sin by our old man the flesh but our new man, the sed of Christ in us is a perfect man. We just don't live according to that perfect man as we ought. > >
So assuming this is true of all us who are justified by faith, when we shuffle off our mortal coil, how is the job completed? How can we bear the beatific vision, justified or not, not having lived according to that perfect man?
More consistent with the exhortations of Paul is "We have been saved, we are being saved and we shall be saved". Even if this does NOT relate to justification it is clear that we still have a body of death. This will be put off says Paul in Corinthians to be replaced by something incorruptible. It is the latter I am considering.

 

[mlqurgw]

< < Paul tells us in Eph. 4:24 to put on the new man, > >
Who is he telling? Those already justified and who need now to be sanctified.

A study of the word sanctify in the Scriptures gives us 3 meanings as it is used: set apart for God as holy to Him, declared holy by Him and made holy by Him. Santification is never a process by which we become more holy. You can't be more holy or more righteous thAn you are in Christ. Holiness and righteousness know nothing of degrees. Youucan't be almost holy. If you are then you are not holy. Santification and justification are not the seame thing but they cannot be separated. If you have one you have the other. Both are an act of God's grace and both are one time. Pau's was simply teling the Ephesian believers to live by faith walking in the new man.

< < Dors that mean we can acheive perfection in this life? Yes and no. We cannot acheive anything other than sin by our old man the flesh but our new man, the sed of Christ in us is a perfect man. We just don't live according to that perfect man as we ought. > >
So assuming this is true of all us who are justified by faith, when we shuffle off our mortal coil, how is the job completed? How can we bear the beatific vision, justified or not, not having lived according to that perfect man?

Because that perfect man is us, we are created in Christ Jesus, Not living according to the perfect nature given us by Christ at the new birth doesn't mean that we live in contiinual sin as a profligate or that the old man has dominion over us. It simply means that the old nature is still in us and does daily seek to rule us and somtimes wins. Everything we do is perfectly righteous because of the new man and mixed with sin because of the old man. We are to reckon the old man as dead, though we live in this body of death, and walk in newness of life.

More consistent with the exhortations of Paul is "We have been saved, we are being saved and we shall be saved".

Certainly we are saved, arebeing saved and shall be saved is true but it fits very well with what I have said. Where folks get confused is thinking sanctification and growth in grace are the same thing. They aren't. As we grow in grace and knowledge we are more able to live according to the new perfect man and put down the old man with his wickedness. Sanctification is an act of God by which He makes us holy, that holiness without which no man shall see the Lord, not a process by which we make ourselves more and more holy until we become "ripe for Heaven." Growing in grace and knowledge is a process by which we learn more of Christ and His wonderful love to us and follow Him more and more.

Even if this does NOT relate to justification it is clear that we still have a body of death. This will be put off says Paul in Corinthians to be replaced by something incorruptible. It is the latter I am considering.

That immortale, incorruptable body will be joined to that perfect nature and we shall be with the Lord forever. This body of death, the flesh, shall then no longer be. We will not fight a daily war with ourselves anymore. I hope that helps.

 

[salamacum]

Although I don't think I agree with you I am very grateful for one thing here.
You indeed have not minced words. Because it does seem to me that in many evangelical churches the current preached theology wants to have its cake and eat it. It wants to preach a perfect salvation but hold over our heads a vague dread that our behaviour will certainly risk incurring the displeasure of God and loss of salvation. What of preachers who expose in their sermons believers to the risk of incurring the anger of God over our behaviour? Failure to grow in grace seems much less offensive to Him and to us than being 'unholy'.
Such is the fear of appearing to preach 'easy grace' or antinomianism. (or being on the receiving end of a Dan Corner diatribe!)
Just a few things, though -
<< Sanctification is an act of God by which He makes us holy, >> Are you happy to make this "has made"? Otherwise it could be process?
< < Holiness and righteousness know nothing of degrees. > >
This is a brave assertion to make. Are any on this board a bit uneasy about asserting that all saved believers are equally holy.

 

[mlqurgw]

Although I don't think I agree with you I am very grateful for one thing here.
You indeed have not minced words. Because it does seem to me that in many evangelical churches the current preached theology wants to have its cake and eat it. It wants to preach a perfect salvation but hold over our heads a vague dread that our behaviour will certainly risk incurring the displeasure of God and loss of salvation. What of preachers who expose in their sermons believers to the risk of incurring the anger of God over our behaviour?

If Christ has satified the wrath of God and suffered the judgement of God in our place how can God possibly be angry with us ever? No believer ever experiences the anger of God. They do experience the loving chatisemnt of the Lord but never His anger. Those preachers who try to scare folks only expose themselves as false prophets.

Failure to grow in grace seems much less offensive to Him and to us than being 'unholy'.

None fail to grow in grace. Not all grow to the same level but all grow.

Such is the fear of appearing to preach 'easy grace' or antinomianism. (or being on the receiving end of a Dan Corner diatribe!)

I have been accused by some on this board of being Antinomian but of course it ain't so. I don't fear preaching the truth of God even though it may be taken by unbelieving rebels as an excuse to sin. If they do they have not heard me and only want to use the truth of God to justify themselves in their rebellion. The fault isn't the truth but the one who misuses it.

Just a few things, though -
<< Sanctification is an act of God by which He makes us holy, >> Are you happy to make this "has made"? Otherwise it could be process?

Has made is fine. Though I do hesitate to use the word impart because of the RCC doctrine of imparted righteousness I do believe He does impart to believers a righteous nature as I explained before.

< < Holiness and righteousness know nothing of degrees. > >
This is a brave assertion to make. Are any on this board a bit uneasy about asserting that all saved believers are equally holy.

It isn't brave at all. All believers have exactly the same righteousness, the righteousness of Christ in them. That new man is Christ in you the hope of glory. The reason that it isn't a brave but perhaps a bold statement is that it is irrefutable. One slight taint of unholiness destroys holiness. One slight taint on righteousness destroys righteousness. There is no such thing as almost holy or almost righteous. You are either holy or you aren't. When men try to lower the standard all they do is destroy the standard. They try to lower the standard because they want to be able to meet it on their own.

 

[heymikey80]

As mlqurgw pointed out, holiness and righteousness are God's and we're imputed to hold them through union with Christ. We're imputed the righteousness of Christ and the holiness of Christ.

"Sanctification" is used in its medieval sense as a category of theology, and not its Biblical sense. It's the Blood of Christ that sanctifies us, our trust in Christ that leads God to declare us justified and consider us so in His righteous Court. They're not degrees, so they're not processes. They're attributes of the one who relies on Jesus.

 

[Big Drew]

The burning coal has everything to do with the sacrifice. It was taken form off the alter and represents Christ's sacrifice.

But to answer your question about sanctification: I am going to go against Reformed teaching here folks so beware.

The Scriptures clearly teach that all believers are born of God. We are called new creatures in Christ. More than that John tells us in !John 3:9 that whosoever is born of God cannot sin becaus eHis seed remains in us. We are told in Rom. 7n and Gal. 5 that we are a people of 2 natures, flesh and spirit. that which is flesh is the natural man who is nothing but sin and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit, John 3:6. All believers are a new creation in Christ, not a reformation of the old creation but a new one. Paul tells us in Eph. 4:24 to put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. All believers have a nature that is perfectly holy and righteous and a nature that is nothing but sin. We are to live according to the holy nature by faith reckoning ourselve to be dead indeed unto sin by the death of Christ and to walk in the newness of life by the Spirit. Dors that mean we can acheive perfection in this life? Yes and no. We cannot acheive anything other than sin by our old man the flesh but our new man, the sed of Christ in us is a perfect man. We just don't live according to that perfect man as we ought.

Sanctification isn't a process by which we reform the old man and make him better but an act of God by which we are made holy. The old man doesn't need to be taken to the hospital of grace to be healed he must be taken to the cross to be crucified.

This is somewhat similar to what my church teaches on sanctification. So, I have to say good post.

 

[salamacum]

< < God's provision for our complete santification is Jesus Christ and Him crucified, He bore all of our sin, putting an end to it by His once for all sacrifice, we can't add or take anything away from that, He is sufficent and only in Him are we able to stand before a holy God. > >

This is a stunning formulation.
I've been looking at "Understanding be men" by Hammond. He has some things to say about justification and sanctification. More later. But he says there are more verses that talk of eternal security for those called by God.
However...
I suppose we may be moving onto the justification by works thing a bit but yesterday went to a meeting where the preacher use Luke 12:1-9 to shake us up. You know whoever does not acknowledge me before men, the Son of Man will disown. (with the commensurate casting in the outer darkness, gnashing of teeth, assigned with the goats etc). Now, this may have been a logically confused sermon but quite clearly he would have felt it was OK for all of us to go away concerned that we could lose our salvation if we don't witness.
How do we interpret that passage (and many others that arminians use). Is that preacher right to use passages like this?

 

[salamacum]

< < Because it does seem to me that in many evangelical churches the current preached theology wants to have its cake and eat it. It wants to preach a perfect salvation but hold over our heads a vague dread that our behaviour will certainly risk incurring the displeasure of God and loss of salvation. > >

So what IS happening in Luke 12? Can this in integrity be used to chivvy up believers into witness? Because of course if it is, we should take all those other severe warnings on board from the gospels. Maybe we should be cutting off arms and gouging eyes that have caused us to sin. Or accepting that God will torture us until we have paid back the debt of our forgiveness in full if we have failed to forgive our brother. (as we all have)
Some of my church friends don't understand what I'm talking about. But I've become convinced in the last year that many Christians are quite capable of holding many contradictory views in their head at the same time.

 

[salamacum]

Here's the TC Hammond discussion about sanctification.
He separates justification and sanctification thus:
Justification:
Standing before God
Position of the Christian
Relationship to God
Foundation of peace and assurance "Christ for us"
Has no degrees - complete and eternal
God's work alone

Sanctification:
Actual State
The condition of the Christian
Fellowship with God
The foundation of practical righteousness "Christ in us"
IT HAS DEGREES
Man cooperates with God.

At first sight this seems a kind of playing with anglo-saxon definitions in order to keep the theological scheme but AT LEAST he is addressing the contradictory opinions in one brain scenario.
But SIGNIFICANTLY he adds a parenthesis to "It has degrees". This is "But see below...!"

This discussion leads on to another logically about the perseverance of the saints. This is not quite the question I have which is about how the state of the believer who has not 100% grown in grace. (let's not call it holiness or santification if you like). How is the UNFINISHED BUSINESS in the believer's life completed? Is it to do with the death of the flesh which Paul says is essential if we are to receive our new resurrection bodies?

Hammond talks of sanctification as something which the believer has to appropriate from the provision given in Christ. It is the process of becoming in practice what he already is "in Christ". Hammond states that this process will be completed at our Lord's reappearing when our lowly body will be made like his glorious body. There's no mention here of the believer's physical death but rather an instant transformation. Hammond states somewhat tantalisingly that "the old nature, unless it is removed by some such method as the physical death of the believer (which incidently is not all that is required for its removal), lingers on the obstruct the growth of the new nature" (In Understanding be men, page 146)


Anyway, enough for now.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Burning Coals and Prophetic Calls - Israel Bible Weekly

 

[Hazelelponi]

Burning Coals and Prophetic Calls - Israel Bible Weekly

This is a denomination specific forum.. it's a denomination, that you not a part of so why are you ressurecting a 9 year old thread to post links?

Did you have a question you'd like answered by a Calvinist? If so, what is it?

 

[twin1954]

I agree. Why did you ressurect this thread. What Mlqurgw said is correct. Do you have a problem with it or a question that needs to be answered. If you are not a Calvinist you can only ask questions you are not allowed to try and answer any.