Iran Launches Attack on Israel

[Nithavela]

I was optimistic at the very beginning of the conflict, and I agree that deradicalization of the Palestinian youth would have gone a long way in preventing future violence against Israel, but I think it's far too late for that approach now. I don't think any amount of counseling or attempts at explaining why things happened the way they did can undo the amount of trauma the children in Gaza have experienced over the past six months and will continue to see into the foreseeable future. There are hundreds of thousands of children under the age of 12 in Gaza and even if deradicalization were to work on the majority of these children, there would still be tens of thousands who would be vulnerable to joining terrorist groups or would be willing to carry out acts of violence towards Israel in the future.

They were just as vulnerable, if not moreso, before the current conflict, with the steady stream of anti-israel propaganda permeating every aspect of their daily life, from their parents treating them as little martyrs to be and schools phrasing math problems in warlike terms all the way to their entertainment ranging from anti-jewish mickey mouse look-alikes to paramilitary bootcamps.

 

[Vanellus]

as to your above quote, since you don't want quotes taken out of context that's why I gave chapters, so you can read the scripture in context.

Your "it's what Romans 11, and Revelation 7," is just a lazy assertion. No reasoned argument, all or part of those chapters?

 

[Vanellus]

what?

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/20/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-shaft-al-shifa-hospital-intl-hnk/index.html

as to your above quote, since you don't want quotes taken out of context that's why I gave chapters, so you can read the scripture in context.

In your #189 you made an assertion with no evidence.

The IDF put out this video of the supposed Hamas base under al Shifa:

but what was found fell far short and was dubiously presented:
IDF evidence so far falls well short of al-Shifa hospital being Hamas HQ

Even the videos produced so far have raised questions under scrutiny. A BBC analysis found the footage of an IDF spokesperson showing the apparent discovery of a bag containing a gun behind an MRI scanning machine, had been taped hours before the arrival of the journalists to whom he was supposedly showing it. In a video shown later, the number of guns in the bag had doubled. The IDF claimed its video of what it found at the hospital was unedited, filmed in a single take, but the BBC analysis found it had been edited.

Guns don't reproduce themselves!

and remember Israel knew there were tunnels under al Shifa because they built them!

 

[Vanellus]

what?

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/20/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-shaft-al-shifa-hospital-intl-hnk/index.html

as to your above quote, since you don't want quotes taken out of context that's why I gave chapters, so you can read the scripture in context.

I take it that your silence about the Israeli lies concerning the shooting dead of a Palestinian American journalist in the West Bank means you think it fine for the IDF to shoot dead clearly marked journalists, and then lie about it.

 

[Landon Caeli]

I take it that your silence about the Israeli lies concerning the shooting dead of a Palestinian American journalist in the West Bank means you think it fine for the IDF to shoot dead clearly marked journalists, and then lie about it.

What if someone is fine with it? What box would that place them in, in your opinion?

Also, it's not logical to assume that someone's silence on a single incident means that they're okay with it widespread.

 

[JosephZ]

They were just as vulnerable, if not moreso, before the current conflict, with the steady stream of anti-israel propaganda permeating every aspect of their daily life, from their parents treating them as little martyrs to be and schools phrasing math problems in warlike terms all the way to their entertainment ranging from anti-jewish mickey mouse look-alikes to paramilitary bootcamps.

Exposure to propaganda can only go so far and is probably somewhere near the bottom of the list as to why people become terrorists; terrorism is usually personal.

There's no doubt that children in Gaza have been vulnerable in the past, but certainly not more so than now and in the days to come. What we are seeing in Gaza today is unprecedented. More people today have been killed in Gaza than in the past 50+ years combined. The number of displaced people is higher than in any previous conflict, including the Nabka during the 1948 war. Over 13,800 Palestinian children have been killed in Gaza since October 7th, which compares to the total number of Palestinians killed in Gaza and the West Bank in the 35 years between 1987 and 2021.

Add to the above the number of Gazans experiencing hunger and famine, and it's easy to see that the situation in Gaza today is worse than any time in the past.

Below are some excerpts from previous studies on what drives people to commit acts of terror and join terrorist groups:

"Most people holding radical ideas do not actually engage in terrorism, and many terrorists are not completely radicalized." (Bjorgo, 2011)

"Radicalization does not inevitably lead to violence and terrorism, even though it can facilitate them." (Bjorgo and Horgan, 2009)

"One of the strongest motivations behind terrorism is vengeance, particularly the desire to avenge not oneself but others. Vengeance can be specific or diffuse, but it is an obsessive drive that is a powerful motive for violence toward others, especially people thought to be responsible for injustices." (Crenshaw, 1992)

"Common sense and experience can tell us that people who are badly treated, and/or unjustly punished, will seek revenge. It should be not be surprising, then, that young adolescents, who have themselves been terrorized, become terrorists, and that in a situation where they are afforded social supports by their compatriots reacting against the actions of an unjust government, the resort to terrorist tactics becomes a way of life." (Field, 1979)

Below is a portion of an article about the life of Sirhan Sirhan.

He has been described as a quiet boy, a bookish boy, a lonely foreigner, traumatized in childhood and pushed finally into obsessional madness by the discovery that the senator he admired was a long time supporter of Israel. His mother still lets loose with the litany of horrors she says the boy Shirhan witnessed in Jerusalem 30 years ago: the soldier blown apart by dynamite, his dismembered leg hanging off the bell tower of the Anglican church; the severed hand that floated up in the bucket Sirhan had just dipped into a well; the army truck, swerving away from gunfire, that struck and killed Sirhan's older brother.

"He was a victim all his life, since he was a baby and a child, and when he was growing up, till he was 13 years of age in Jerusalem, all he has seen, he never had a childhood, never was happy, never laughed, all he has seen is fear, hunger, dying human beings in pieces, it's hard enough for a big man, but for a child...

The U.N. resolution passed in November 1947. The British withdrew from Palestine on May 14, 1948. In the intervening months, according to both his parents, the boy Sirhan watched the fury that was ripping Jerusalem in two, watched the bombing of Damascus Gate, where a crowd of Arabs had gathered to wait for the bus. Mary Sirhan, in an earlier interview, remembered her son saying, "Mamma, the bomb came down and made the people's blood run down there at Damascus Gate."

Mary Sirhan says he watched shooting, watched dynamite bombing, watched the death of his older brother, watched the disembowelment of a man. close up: "The bomb came and hit, and made a big ditch in the floor, and came up, and that man and his stomach and all the things in his stomach were brought out to the ground. And Sirhan was there, and many other children were there also, and they came running to me, and they said, 'Sirhan is lying on the ground' . . . He wasn't hurt but he was fainting because of fear."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1979/08/20/sirhan/75cd41f0-e570-4bc4-ac93-83f251eec765/

For the past six months, children in Gaza have been experiencing the same horrors that Sirhan experienced as a child. It's scary to think how many Sirhans there will be in the world after this current conflict is over.

 

[Jamdoc]

I take it that your silence about the Israeli lies concerning the shooting dead of a Palestinian American journalist in the West Bank means you think it fine for the IDF to shoot dead clearly marked journalists, and then lie about it.

if she's mixed in with Palestinian terrorists, accidents happen, are you thinking the IDF is checking ID on everyone before shooting in a firefight?
Alright! Stop! Everyone, ID's out, we need to see which are terrorists and which are journalists!
it's life and death situations and sometimes embedded journalists get caught in the crossfire. What you mentioned probably isn't even the first time.

 

[Jamdoc]

Your "it's what Romans 11, and Revelation 7," is just a lazy assertion. No reasoned argument, all or part of those chapters?

the first part of Revelation 7 has 144,000, 12,000 of each of the tribes of Israel marked by God, the tribes of Dan and Ephraim were replaced by Levi and Joseph (the father of Ephraim, originally Ephraim and Manasseh, the sons of Joseph were tribes). Dan and Ephraim were cut off for Idolatry. In Revelation 14 these same 144,000 follow the Lamb of God (Jesus).

the entire chapter of Romans 11 is Paul addressing the question of whether or not God has forsaken the Jews/Israel and replaced them with the Church.
First he points out that no, they're not forsaken, as he, and the other Apostles, are Jewish, and so God has provided a remnant through them.
Secondly, he points out that God extended salvation to the gentiles to provoke Israel to jealousy, because Israel saw Gentiles with disdain.
Thirdly, he teaches not to be haughty and proud that Gentiles were extended this blessing, because it is not the Gentile's doing, but God's, Gentiles were grafted in to an already existing "tree", and furthermore, if Gentiles were to see Israel as cast aside, then they should be fearful, because if God cast aside Israel, He could do the same to them.
Fourth, he points out that Israel was broken off for unbelief, and partially blinded spiritually, until the Gentiles fully came into the Kingdom of God. Afterwards, God would heal Israel's blindness and save them, as promised in the Old Testament in multiple places.
Finally Paul goes into how the promises and gifts of God are not rescinded, and that even though the Jews might currently be enemies of the Gospel and Christianity (as at that time, Jews persecuted and killed Christians, Paul was a persecutor himself before converting), that because they still have a redemptive future, we are to be graceful to them and merciful to them.
Paul concludes with praising God.

So yes, full chapter is important in this context.

I don't just give off isolated verses, because I consider the context important, especially Romans 11.

 

[MartyF]

a shame. I would think that the future redemption of Israel was clear in the bible but because of people allegorizing scripture and seeing the Church as replacing Israel rather than being grafted into the same tree as Israel is a part of (which is how Paul illustrates it), they get the idea that there is no future for Israel that they're forsaken.

But it's a dangerous thought process to go into, and Paul taught it right
Romans 11

Paul was hoping his relatives would convert. Romans 11:13-14.

They did not.

While Jesus would welcome those who return to them, the Israelis have not. As Jesus said, they have decided to serve Satan - the lord of murder and lies. Israelis are not sons of Abraham like I am. John 8:44 Galations 3:7-9

Christians should not look for their future in Israel - Mark 11:12-25.

As for Revelation 7, I suggest you finish the chapter.

If God can forsake the promises He made to Israel saying "that's old covenant, new covenant replaces the old, old has no value anymore"... then how can we trust Him not to forsake the promise of eternal life to us?

Have you not read the blessings and curses chapter?

The covenant God made with Israel was conditional. The Israelis did not follow the covenant and those who are LARPing as Israelis now are still not fulfilling their portion of the covenant. God is not forsaking his promise if Israel falls or if those LARPing as Israelis don't go to heaven because they are sons of Satan.

I go further and do believe that Islam is at its core, evil, because I believe its author is the devil, made as a counterfeit religion, some of its key messages are reactionary to Christianity, that Jesus did not die, is not the Son of God, is not divine, no trinity, etc.
By John's definition it is Antichrist religion, perhaps THE Antichrist religion.

You do know that the Jews teach that Jesus is being boiled for all eternity in a pot of excrement?

While Islam considers Jesus to be an honored prophet who performed miracles, born of a virgin, was saved by God, and ascended to heaven.

Do you really believe Islam is closer to being the anti-Christ religion than modern Talmudic Judaism?

Well that's not a good thing at all.

A Christian should not be aligning with an organization who's purpose is "killing Jews"
whether it be Nazi party, Hamas, Hezbollah, or Iran.

I should think a Christian should not align themselves with lying murderers. John 8:44 Or at the very least not supporting handing a ton of weapons and bombs to murderers who have killed over ten thousand children in the past few months.

 

[Jamdoc]

Paul was hoping his relatives would convert. Romans 11:13-14.

They did not.

While Jesus would welcome those who return to them, the Israelis have not. As Jesus said, they have decided to serve Satan - the lord of murder and lies. Israelis are not sons of Abraham like I am. John 8:44 Galations 3:7-9

Christians should not look for their future in Israel - Mark 11:12-25.

As for Revelation 7, I suggest you finish the chapter.

Have you not read the blessings and curses chapter?

The covenant God made with Israel was conditional. The Israelis did not follow the covenant and those who are LARPing as Israelis now are still not fulfilling their portion of the covenant. God is not forsaking his promise if Israel falls or if those LARPing as Israelis don't go to heaven because they are sons of Satan.

You do know that the Jews teach that Jesus is being boiled for all eternity in a pot of excrement?

While Islam considers Jesus to be an honored prophet who performed miracles, born of a virgin, was saved by God, and ascended to heaven.

Do you really believe Islam is closer to being the anti-Christ religion than modern Talmudic Judaism?

I should think a Christian should not align themselves with lying murderers. John 8:44 Or at the very least not supporting handing a ton of weapons and bombs to murderers who have killed over ten thousand children in the past few months.

so much wrong in this post.

God does chastise Israel for disobedience according to Deuteronomy 28, but there is a promised regathering into their own land, and eschatological salvation - a remnant turns to Christ.

You're basically declaring that Paul was just "hoping" but that his claims that God would heal the blindness of Israel in the future was not Inspired and just wishful thinking. Sounds like you don't believe it's the Word of God.
and many Anti-semitic Christians will try to discard Paul's writings. It's also a Muslim tactic to attack Christianity as a whole. claiming that Paul disagreed with Jesus and disagreed with the other Apostles, so they attack Paul (and they'll call him Saul to make him EXTRA Jewish) hoping to undermine Salvation by faith and Christianity as a whole.

as for what's written about Jesus in the Talmud, I'm aware.
Why do you think they look on Him and mourn? Because they were wrong for thousands of years.

Zechariah 12

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

Look at the subjects. who can pour the spirit of grace upon people? God.
Who is it poured upon, the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. This means 2 things. #1, It's the Jews, and #2, they inhabit Jerusalem at the time.
Who's the they that look upon God, whom they have pierced? The subject from the previous sentence, the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. The Jews crucified Jesus. Pilate washed his hands of it, and the Jews accepted responsibility for it.

Matthew 27

22 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.
23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.
24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

IF, as you are claiming that the current, modern day Jews are not the same people group that crucified Jesus, as many Muslims (believing they are Edomites and not Israelites) believe, then we have been accusing the wrong people of crucifying Jesus, and God has been chastising the wrong people, and the real people who pierced Jesus have been lost to time and completely escaped God's chastisement. WHOOPS.

So no
the current Jews that you and Muslims hate, are the same Jews who's ancestors shouted "Let Him be crucified"..
and their children, their descendants, will look on Him, and mourn bitterly for how wrong they have been, and God will give them grace, and they will turn to Jesus.

 

[Vanellus]

if she's mixed in with Palestinian terrorists, accidents happen, are you thinking the IDF is checking ID on everyone before shooting in a firefight?
Alright! Stop! Everyone, ID's out, we need to see which are terrorists and which are journalists!
it's life and death situations and sometimes embedded journalists get caught in the crossfire. What you mentioned probably isn't even the first time.

There's two things wrong with your answer:

1. You have gone with the IDF propaganda lie that was put out to set the news agenda and later proved to be false. Why?
2. Rules of war do not permit the deliberate targeting of non combatant civilians

How about another theory: the IDF wanted to kill a journalist who was telling the truth about their evil deeds.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/24/...nin-killing-investigation-cmd-intl/index.html

But an investigation by CNN offers new evidence — including two videos of the scene of the shooting — that there was no active combat, nor any Palestinian militants, near Abu Akleh in the moments leading up to her death. Videos obtained by CNN, corroborated by testimony from eight eyewitnesses, an audio forensic analyst and an explosive weapons expert, suggest that Abu Akleh was shot dead in a targeted attack by Israeli forces.

 

[Vanellus]

the first part of Revelation 7 has 144,000, 12,000 of each of the tribes of Israel marked by God, the tribes of Dan and Ephraim were replaced by Levi and Joseph (the father of Ephraim, originally Ephraim and Manasseh, the sons of Joseph were tribes). Dan and Ephraim were cut off for Idolatry. In Revelation 14 these same 144,000 follow the Lamb of God (Jesus).

the entire chapter of Romans 11 is Paul addressing the question of whether or not God has forsaken the Jews/Israel and replaced them with the Church.
First he points out that no, they're not forsaken, as he, and the other Apostles, are Jewish, and so God has provided a remnant through them.
Secondly, he points out that God extended salvation to the gentiles to provoke Israel to jealousy, because Israel saw Gentiles with disdain.
Thirdly, he teaches not to be haughty and proud that Gentiles were extended this blessing, because it is not the Gentile's doing, but God's, Gentiles were grafted in to an already existing "tree", and furthermore, if Gentiles were to see Israel as cast aside, then they should be fearful, because if God cast aside Israel, He could do the same to them.
Fourth, he points out that Israel was broken off for unbelief, and partially blinded spiritually, until the Gentiles fully came into the Kingdom of God. Afterwards, God would heal Israel's blindness and save them, as promised in the Old Testament in multiple places.
Finally Paul goes into how the promises and gifts of God are not rescinded, and that even though the Jews might currently be enemies of the Gospel and Christianity (as at that time, Jews persecuted and killed Christians, Paul was a persecutor himself before converting), that because they still have a redemptive future, we are to be graceful to them and merciful to them.
Paul concludes with praising God.

So yes, full chapter is important in this context.

I don't just give off isolated verses, because I consider the context important, especially Romans 11.

Just giving out chapter numbers without explanation is of no use whatsoever so it's good you have now given an explanation. it's a pity you didn't do it before.

In Romans, Paul uses the word "Israel" with more than one meaning: For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Rom 9:6. The whole passage Romans 9-11 needs considering. This is Paul being very dense in his writing. But how are we to understand And so all Israel will be saved, when it seems that the unbelieving Jews through history correspond to the branches that were cut off. Don't they count as part of the people of Israel?

But maybe an extended discussion of this topic belongs in the theological section!

As for Revelation aren't those perfect numbers too perfect? Aren't they intended to be symbolic?

Two passages that are about the most difficult in the Bible over which opinions differ. I think anyone who is dogmatically sure of their meaning may not have a firm foundation in their thinking.
.

 

[Vanellus]

What if someone is fine with it? What box would that place them in, in your opinion?

Also, it's not logical to assume that someone's silence on a single incident means that they're okay with it widespread.

Jamdoc was free to state that he wasn't fine with the IDF targeting and killing a journalist. Instead he repeated the IDF propaganda lie.

The box contains people who cannot conceive that the conflict is between two sets of bad guys: Hamas and the IDF and can only think in terms of good guys and bad guys as in the classic westerns. There are some good guys though; the many non combatants who have been killed unnecessarily.

 

[Pommer]

the first part of Revelation 7 has 144,000, 12,000 of each of the tribes of Israel marked by God, the tribes of Dan and Ephraim were replaced by Levi and Joseph (the father of Ephraim, originally Ephraim and Manasseh, the sons of Joseph were tribes). Dan and Ephraim were cut off for Idolatry. In Revelation 14 these same 144,000 follow the Lamb of God (Jesus).

I’m no Biblical scholar, neither am I any sort of hermeneutical maven, but taking apocalyptic writings literally sorta misses the whole genre’s point, no?

 

[Landon Caeli]

The box contains people who cannot conceive that the conflict is between two sets of bad guys: Hamas and the IDF and can only think in terms of good guys and bad guys as in the classic westerns.

But the IDF actually is the good side... They're the side that is fighting for freedom and religious and human rights.

...Hamas, like their cousins ISIS, are only pretending to care about the Palestinian people. Realistically, their primary goal is racial and religious domination across the region. That's why Palestinians were so against Zionism from the start - because Zionism represents Judaism and a Jewish state that is designed to *not* be under Islamic domination. The existing Christians remain okay, as long as they submit to Islamic domination in general.

There are some good guys though; the many non combatants who have been killed unnecessarily.

Not really. These casualties of the war, that was started by their side, consist of many Islamist and racist people. Except for the children, who hadn't been alive long enough to be brainwashed by the Islamists yet.

 

[JosephZ]

But the IDF actually is the good side... They're the side that is fighting for freedom and religious and human rights.

In 1948 the history of Palestine changed forever, but little is ever said about the upheaval faced by its Christian minority. Christians have lived side by side with Muslims and Jews for almost two thousand years. An integral part of Palestinian society, they have shared in the events of recent history, yet their voices are seldom heard and worse: their existence often ignored.

Palestinian Christians have been disappearing from the Holy Land for decades, even though this region is where Christianity began. So what’s going on? Dena Takruri goes to Bethlehem to ask the Palestinian Christians who remain.

 

[Landon Caeli]

In 1948 the history of Palestine changed forever, but little is ever said about the upheaval faced by its Christian minority. Christians have lived side by side with Muslims and Jews for almost two thousand years. An integral part of Palestinian society, they have shared in the events of recent history, yet their voices are seldom heard and worse: their existence often ignored.

Palestinian Christians have been disappearing from the Holy Land for decades, even though this region is where Christianity began. So what’s going on? Dena Takruri goes to Bethlehem to ask the Palestinian Christians who remain.

There were many Christians who lived in Germany, during the Holocaust. Many of them supported and even assisted in the rounding up of Jews there.

Likewise, many Palestinian Christians are anti-semitic racists. They're jealous and angry at Jewish successfulness - they hate it.. Just like the Germans hated it that Jews often moved up the ranks, and achieved management positions, and other high level professions. History repeats.

...Jealousy is a form of idolatry. It's also a Cardinal sin, as it's the same as Envy.

 

[JosephZ]

There were many Christians who lived in Germany, during the Holocaust. Many of them supported and even assisted in the rounding up of Jews there.

Likewise, many Palestinian Christians are anti-semitic racists. They're jealous and angry at Jewish successfulness - they hate it.. Just like the Germans hated it that Jews often moved up the ranks, and achieved management positions, and other high level professions. History repeats.

...Jealousy is a form of idolatry. It's also a Cardinal sin, as it's the same as Envy.

Please take the time to watch the first video in its entirety.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Please watch the first video in its entirety.

Okay, I'll try. It's 55 minutes, I'll do my best.

...But if I feel like it's unfairly biased, and intended to convince a certain view unfairly, I'll have to stop it.

 

[JosephZ]

Okay, I'll try. It's 55 minutes, I'll do my best.

Thank you.

...But if I feel like it's unfairly biased, and intended to convince a certain view unfairly, I'll have to stop it.

Fair enough, but give it at least 20 to 25 minutes before cutting it off.