Ignatius of Antioch

childofdust

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For those who have studied any of the so-called letters of Ignatius of Antioch...

Anything stick out to you?
Anything that you liked?
Anything you didn't like?
Anything you want to know more about?
Anything impact you?

Do you prefer the longer or shorter versions?

Latin, Greek, or Syriac?

It doesn't seem like people have spent much time with the letters. One of the most thorough scholastic worsk I've seen is "The Apostolic Fathers Part II: S. Ignatius, S. Polycarp" by J. B. Lightfoot. You can get it for free through Google Books. There was a recent commentary on the 7 so-called "authentic" ones in the Hermeneia series. I was disappointed with the lack of depth and breadth in that one.

Anyway, just wondering what people's experiences and thoughts are since so few seem to be interested in the letters and they are a particular curiosity of mine.
 

childofdust

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I guess I will take this further with a few observations... Perhaps I will start with the so-called letter to Polycarp.

In the following, I reference the Short Recession – that is, the letter in the Syriac, which was translated by William Cureton in his “Corpus Ignatianum.” Since I have no knowledge of Syriac, my observations are dependent entirely upon his translation, which is probably lacking in a great many respects.

The observations come as I read. So they may change or take on new meaning as I read more. My observations remain, therefore, very much preliminary.

The first thing I noticed about this letter “to Polycarp” is that it contains no greeting or salutation. It does not actually mention Polycarp at all. Neither does it identify the writer/author. Indeed, there is nothing whatsoever in the letter that makes it seem as if the writer/author were referring to the Polycarp of Smyrna. The way this letter is written, it seems to be directed toward someone respected and loved, but younger, less mature, and without a lot of authority or learning. The author/writer instructs the addressee like a student—one who has attained a few graces of the Spirit (is patient, kind, knowledgeable, and has a passionate spirit), but needs guidance and help in order to grow into full spiritual blossoming: “that thou mayest be lacking in nothing, and mayest abound in all gifts.”

The addressee is told to work to reconcile divisiveness in the church through gentleness, love, dependence upon God for understanding, meekness, and what I would call long-suffering - enduring the “infirmities” of the “evil” ones in the church. All this is for the sake of unity – something that, apparently, was of great concern to the writer/author. Excommunication does not come up. Neither does rebuke. The addressee is to be “wise as a serpent” and “innocent as a dove” (imagery comes from Matthew 10:16) in that context.

The addressee is told that he needs to be “worthy of God” - at this particular time more than ever. The need for this worthiness is like a person who stands in a tempest needs a haven.

Much of the letter is simply a list of instructions about how to deal with people in the church or is an importation of wisdom – many things seem to be based on stuff found throughout Paul's writings. Not a lot is either original or creative. There are several attempts at metaphor—none of them good.

The author/writer speaks in his own voice in several places:
-- “That which is promised to us is life eternal incorruptible”
-- “In every place I will be instead of thy soul” and “I will be instead of the souls of those who are subject to the Bishop, and the Presbyters, and the Deacons”
-- there is a notion of behavior that takes place in two realms, the “flesh” and the “spirit” - and that one must act in both realms as a Christian
-- “Expect Him who is above the times, Him to whom there are no times, Him who is unseen, Him who for our sakes was seen, Him who is impalpable, Him who is impassable, Him who for our sakes suffered, Him who endured every thing in every form for our sakes.”
-- There is a focus on the “Bishop” as a counselor and mentor in some ways that I am not sure I understand.
-- There is a dependence upon the “will of God” in all one's actions and upon doing everything to “honor” God. Quite worthy and noble aspirations!
-- There is a mention of “conquering” by means of being “smitten” that is quite interesting: “Stand in the truth, like a combatant who is smitten: for it is [the part] of a great combatant that he should be smitten and conquer.” I'm not really sure about that to which this pertains. Is being “smitten” literal or a metaphor? And what is being “conquered”? None of it is explained in the letter.

As for the author/writer, he is apparently in some sort of “bonds,” but whether these “bonds” are physical, mental, or another bad/unexplained metaphor is uncertain. He is, apparently, sending someone in his stead to Antioch. But what that could be is not ascertainable. It would seem that he did not consider himself either a Bishop or a Presbyter or a Deacon since he speaks of those three as something other than himself and aligns himself specifically with those who are “subject” to them. He would appear to align himself with the “laborers” of the gospel – the “stewards” and “domestics” and “ministers.” In other words, there is no hint in this letter, and much against it, that the author/writer considered himself to be the Bishop of Antioch.

I have read Polycarp, Clement, Ireneaus, Tertullian, Justin, etc... and this is, by far, the most banal, non-inspiring, and rudimentary of them all. There is little or no great authority present in voice as seen in those writings. There is no continual dependence upon scripture for teaching and admonition as seen in those writings. The difference between those writings and this is night and day. If this really is a writing of one of the early church fathers—one of the great leaders of the Christian church in the early days, then it shows no sign of it and has fooled me utterly. Perhaps, as I delve into the other two letters from the Syriac, I may encounter things that alter this impression.
 
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I guess I will take this further with a few observations... Perhaps I will start with the so-called letter to Polycarp.

In the following, I reference the Short Recession – that is, the letter in the Syriac, which was translated by William Cureton in his “Corpus Ignatianum.” Since I have no knowledge of Syriac, my observations are dependent entirely upon his translation, which is probably lacking in a great many respects.

The observations come as I read. So they may change or take on new meaning as I read more. My observations remain, therefore, very much preliminary.

The first thing I noticed about this letter “to Polycarp” is that it contains no greeting or salutation. It does not actually mention Polycarp at all. Neither does it identify the writer/author. Indeed, there is nothing whatsoever in the letter that makes it seem as if the writer/author were referring to the Polycarp of Smyrna. The way this letter is written, it seems to be directed toward someone respected and loved, but younger, less mature, and without a lot of authority or learning. The author/writer instructs the addressee like a student—one who has attained a few graces of the Spirit (is patient, kind, knowledgeable, and has a passionate spirit), but needs guidance and help in order to grow into full spiritual blossoming: “that thou mayest be lacking in nothing, and mayest abound in all gifts.”

The addressee is told to work to reconcile divisiveness in the church through gentleness, love, dependence upon God for understanding, meekness, and what I would call long-suffering - enduring the “infirmities” of the “evil” ones in the church. All this is for the sake of unity – something that, apparently, was of great concern to the writer/author. Excommunication does not come up. Neither does rebuke. The addressee is to be “wise as a serpent” and “innocent as a dove” (imagery comes from Matthew 10:16) in that context.

The addressee is told that he needs to be “worthy of God” - at this particular time more than ever. The need for this worthiness is like a person who stands in a tempest needs a haven.

Much of the letter is simply a list of instructions about how to deal with people in the church or is an importation of wisdom – many things seem to be based on stuff found throughout Paul's writings. Not a lot is either original or creative. There are several attempts at metaphor—none of them good.

The author/writer speaks in his own voice in several places:
-- “That which is promised to us is life eternal incorruptible”
-- “In every place I will be instead of thy soul” and “I will be instead of the souls of those who are subject to the Bishop, and the Presbyters, and the Deacons”
-- there is a notion of behavior that takes place in two realms, the “flesh” and the “spirit” - and that one must act in both realms as a Christian
-- “Expect Him who is above the times, Him to whom there are no times, Him who is unseen, Him who for our sakes was seen, Him who is impalpable, Him who is impassable, Him who for our sakes suffered, Him who endured every thing in every form for our sakes.”
-- There is a focus on the “Bishop” as a counselor and mentor in some ways that I am not sure I understand.
-- There is a dependence upon the “will of God” in all one's actions and upon doing everything to “honor” God. Quite worthy and noble aspirations!
-- There is a mention of “conquering” by means of being “smitten” that is quite interesting: “Stand in the truth, like a combatant who is smitten: for it is [the part] of a great combatant that he should be smitten and conquer.” I'm not really sure about that to which this pertains. Is being “smitten” literal or a metaphor? And what is being “conquered”? None of it is explained in the letter.

As for the author/writer, he is apparently in some sort of “bonds,” but whether these “bonds” are physical, mental, or another bad/unexplained metaphor is uncertain. He is, apparently, sending someone in his stead to Antioch. But what that could be is not ascertainable. It would seem that he did not consider himself either a Bishop or a Presbyter or a Deacon since he speaks of those three as something other than himself and aligns himself specifically with those who are “subject” to them. He would appear to align himself with the “laborers” of the gospel – the “stewards” and “domestics” and “ministers.” In other words, there is no hint in this letter, and much against it, that the author/writer considered himself to be the Bishop of Antioch.

I have read Polycarp, Clement, Ireneaus, Tertullian, Justin, etc... and this is, by far, the most banal, non-inspiring, and rudimentary of them all. There is little or no great authority present in voice as seen in those writings. There is no continual dependence upon scripture for teaching and admonition as seen in those writings. The difference between those writings and this is night and day. If this really is a writing of one of the early church fathers—one of the great leaders of the Christian church in the early days, then it shows no sign of it and has fooled me utterly. Perhaps, as I delve into the other two letters from the Syriac, I may encounter things that alter this impression.
I hesitate to step in, because I am no expert on the ECFs. But I do understand to a degree the kinds of sentiments the Church often writes from, in the words of the Saints.

Some of what you mentioned I would easily identify as being consistent with other various Saints, and understand something of the ethos behind it, if that's what you are questioning.

But if you want something more scholarly ... well, another forum area would possibly get more attention.

It is certainly appropriate for Traditional Theology. There are also some Orthodox posters who I think could give you very good discussion on this, but some of them rarely post outside of the EO forum (the Ancient Way). We do have subforums specifically for debate (St. Justin Martyr's) and for asking questions, if you think that's what it might come to.

But it depends on what is wanted.

I could somewhat address several of your points above, but as I said, I am not an expert on the ECFs. I am learning, but only a few years into it.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Ignatius's Epistles were what drew me into ancient Christianity. I took his name at my baptism so I am biased towards him. I'm no expert in Ignatius' composition but what inspires me about them is his dedication to the unity of the Church, particularly in the person of the Bishop, sharing the same Eucharist and each having the same core convictions regarding who Christ is. Above all his letter to the romans shows how much modern Christians lack in their dedication to Christ, that he did not want to be saved and believed it necessary that he die for Christ in Rome.

In Ignatius we see a convicted rejection of docetism or materialism. Christ is for him:

There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible,— even Jesus Christ our Lord. Ephesians Seven

In regards to your feelings on Ignatius I would offer some criticism. Here is some helpful information regarding the recension of the Ignatian Corpus.

"The short recension, preserved only in Syriac, is nothing more than an abridgement of the letters to Polycarp, Ephesians, and Romans (with a paragraph from Trallians) constructed from the middle recension for monastic purposes."

William R. Schoedel, Saint Ignatius Bishop of Antioch, and Helmut Koester, Ignatius of Antioch: A Commentary on the Letters of Ignatius of Antioch, Hermeneia—a Critical and Historical Commentary on the Bible (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1985), 3.


The middle recension is more or less upheld as the legitimate representation of Ignatius's epistles by most (there are of course scholars who doubt Ignatian authenticity). This might perhaps explain your criticisms of the text which when divorced from the rich theological detail offered in the authentic Ignatian letters might seem overtly simple and lacking. All of the Ignatian letters contain an introduction (like Paul's letters do) including his epistle to Polycarp which runs as follows:

"Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to Polycarp, bishop of the church of the Smyrnaeans, or rather, one who has God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ as bishop, abundant greetings."

William R. Schoedel, Saint Ignatius Bishop of Antioch, and Helmut Koester, Ignatius of Antioch: A Commentary on the Letters of Ignatius of Antioch, Hermeneia—a Critical and Historical Commentary on the Bible (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1985), 256–257.

I am curious why you choose the shorter recension alone and not the middle recension? Are you suspicious of the middle and long?
 
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