I think I'm unregnerate, reprobate, vessel of wrath, despairing, tried all I can think of

[diana092086]

@ diana092086:

Do you think this is so because you are too full of yourself? What room is there in you for God?

Wouldn't that be a work of my own to "make room" for God?

You aren't a puppet. Or a robot. You are response-able - responsible - for the choices you make. In any case, I didn't suggest that you make room. I was merely observing the problem you're having with God.

I know all these things. I've tried to ask God/surrender to Him. I know so much. I know all these things that are supposed to happen in the Christian life but without being one. I think I'm deceiving myself.

I don't think you do know "all these things." Or, perhaps, the problem is that, while knowing them, you don't really understand them.

I'm still afraid that I've learned too much to be genuine and sincere. Jesus says to come to Him with childlike faith - I've way complicated things and wanted to figure everything out before coming to Him. So, I think it's too late for me - as if I know all the things I'm supposed to think, say, do that it's not authentic. I feel like I'm an impostor, an actress, a phony. I'm seeing more and more how horrible I am and have been - like I stated in my original post, I've never felt like my own person. I've always wanted to be like someone else. Never really having any good desires of my own. Looking back on my childhood and growing up, I was shy and insecure. I didn't make friends easily. I didn't love being around tons of people. And I thought of this today and it's really, really awful - I bonded with and became best friends with someone who "got me," someone who was shy like me, someone I could vent to and complain to about others. We bonded over making fun of others, being critical, negative. At the time, I didn't think that was abnormal. I didn't see how evil that was and now I do. I think that's just who I am and I can't change myself. And I think that if I go to God now that it's not sincere. That I'm going to Him to change me because I want to go to heaven and not that I really feel bad I've offended Him. I'm still just concerned about me. I'm rotten through and through.

It's a certainty that you are deceiving yourself in some way. We all are. That's why God is so necessary. He peels off the blinders of self-deception that we cannot recognize we have. And these blinders must come off if we are to walk well with Him.

I know this too. But I don't know how to let Him. I know He chooses some, not all. He draws who He saves. He chooses, then who He chooses responds to Him. I can't choose Him.

Uh oh. I can see now part of your underlying problem: Calvinist/Reformed theology. There are better, more biblically-accurate, more rational, approaches to the doctrines of salvation than Calvinism:

www.soteriology101.com See also "Molinism" at www.reasonablefaith.org

You can and must freely choose God. He does the work of drawing you, convicting you, illuminating your mind to His truth, persuading you to choose Christ, but, in the end, you must choose. As I said, you aren't a robot or puppet. It won't wash, then, to take refuge from your unwillingness to bend your knee to God in the Calvinist idea of Election. It is not God's fault that you are unwilling to yield to Him; it's entirely yours.

Thank you for the resources. I'll have to check them out. Does He do that for everyone though - the drawing, convicting, illuminating truth, persuading to Christ? Because when I've read the Bible, I've just read it and it's been over my head. I always questioned its truth. So, I went outside the Bible to "verify." Some people have said that some people will read the Bible, find it to be true, find God (His sheep? (My sheep hear my voice...?)) while others will read it, do not get it, and do not find God (the goats?) I've never seen the beauty and glory of Christ. I know as facts that I'm a sinner, Christ died for sinners...but it hasn't been personal for me. It's just in my head to where it hasn't really affected me. So when I've seen true believers and their response to God, I wondered what was wrong with me. I know we're supposed to respond in gratitude and love. But that was never my genuine response. Again, I fear it's too late for me because I know I should respond in gratitude and love but it wouldn't be genuine for me knowing that. I think about this too - that if it was just me and the Bible, I wouldn't see or experience God's love. It's when I talk with others, learn from others about how they see and experience God, that I think it's possible to for me to see and experience God in that way too. But then I go on my own again and only see and experience the judgment and wrath. It's like no matter what I do, I can't see His love for me. I don't get it. I feel like I'm immune to it, to the Gospel.

I feel in a way this would be me trying to save myself - trying to focus on Him, dwell on Him and that I'm still without the Holy Spirit.

God has made every one of us to be conformed in some measure and way to that upon which we focus. It's just human nature. Why would God not use this characteristic to His ends in our lives? You will be conformed to your focus. If your focus is upon you, you will remain caught in yourself, growing more and more hardened in who you are. But if you'll turn your eyes upon Christ, as the Bible commands, and keep your focus upon him, human nature being what it is, you will begin to be conformed to him. Is this saving yourself? No. But it is cooperating with God in the transformation He wants to work in you.

So, say I'm not saved, can I still do this? I just feel like I'd be insincere and only operating in my flesh and without the Holy Spirit.

Some people just can't believe. I really wish I could. I know I can't make myself.

Forgive me for being blunt, but this is nonsense. It is so...human of you to try to distance yourself from your responsibility to choose Christ. The fact is, you can't go a day without exercising faith in something: your hairstylist, your doctor, your dentist, the mailman, the cook at your favorite restaurant, the power company, other drivers on the road, and so on. You can believe and you do so all the time. You simply don't want to believe in God. He gets in the way of running your own life as you like, of being your own boss.

Can you make yourself want God? No. But you can certainly appeal to God to change what you desire.

I want heaven (or so I think) but I'm pretty sure I don't want God. I've learned also that God only hears (responds to) the prayer of repentance from sinners. Otherwise, the prayers of sinners are an abomination and He doesn't answer them or respond to them. He only answers prayers of believers and if it's according to His will. So, that's been another hindrance for me (learning too much that it's harming me...no wonder He said come to me with childlike faith) I think He won't hear me or that it's not His will to save me.


I'm still afraid of hell.

And so you should be. This is the eternal destiny of all those who want their own way rather than God's, who want to be their own god. God will give each of them exactly what they want: an existence separate from Him where they can absorb themselves entirely with themselves forever.

I've always asked about their faith and desired that kind of faith for myself - so I tried to learn so much to see if that would help me, but it didn't.

Learning about God cannot make up for knowing Him personally. Knowledge of God is important, but it is not God Himself. But this is what you need. Not more facts about God, but God Himself. The problem is, you want yourself more than you want Him. This only God can change. And He will as you persist in asking Him to do so. You aren't beyond God's power to change - though I think you may want to be.

You're right - I do want myself more than God. With reference to above about the prayers, I fear He won't hear me though. That He knows I want myself more than Him. And He knows better than I do. I think I want heaven and Him but maybe I really don't. I don't want to suffer in hell. I see true believers and would like what they have (I've also learned that no one seeks after God. People may seek after the benefits/comforts but not God Himself) So, I think that's me (another hindrance) and that I don't want God but the benefits.

I just don't think I'm chosen. I don't know what to do anymore. Walk away? - I really don't want to. Kill myself? - I really don't want to. I wish I just had a simple faith in Him and had that relationship. I just feel like I'm forcing something that's not for me.

Well, of course it's not you. You are, left to yourself, only about you. You know enough to know you ought to be different and some part of you seems to want that, so take the small step of asking God to change you. You don't have to have some great, swelling desire to change. A tiny glimmer of interest is enough. But act on that glimmer and press God to do what only He can do in you.

None of us is "chosen" in the Calvinist sense. That's just irrational nonsense. We are elect in Christ. All those who choose him become elect in him. You can't escape being responsible for what you choose. You know the Gospel, you know the truth of God's revelation of Himself in His word, and now you are doubly responsible for what you do with that knowledge.

Killing yourself is not the answer. Yielding to God is. Are you so self-obsessed that you would die rather than submit yourself to your loving, gracious Creator?

You make it sound so appealing - submitting to my loving, gracious Creator. So then I want to (or so I think I do) but maybe I don't understand what it means and don't really want to. I overthink and overanalyze everything. I've confused myself to nth degree with all these things so I'm not even sure what exactly I need to repent of, maybe I'm thinking things are sin and maybe they're not (I'm very OCD, have particular ways of doing things, being organized, etc.) my brain is so messed up. I also know so many things I ought to do and I often do them out of duty/obligation but not that I genuinely want to do them. Example: I'm genuinely not compassionate but "put on" a compassionate attitude but feel so fake since that's not how I genuinely feel.

Like I said earlier, I just feel empty and void too.

This is exactly how you ought to feel without God on the throne of your heart where He should be. When He is not seated there, you are not whole.

I'm not really impressed by much. I feel so hardened. I know how terrible I am - I've asked God to save me so many times.

Are you thinking that when you ask God to save you that somehow you ought to be instantly and forever transformed into an all-perfected saint? God saves sinners. He saves miserable, sin-cursed wretches caught up in all sorts of vile things. And when He does, He then sets about cleaning them up and deepening them in their walk with Him. This is a life-long process of transformation, however; it does not happen instantly. Every child of God comes to love God more and more over time; every child of God comes to trust Him more and more over time; every child of God comes to enjoy God more and more over time; and every child of God learns to die to themselves more and more over time.

Has God saved you? I don't know. Do you exhibit the marks of God's indwelling Spirit?

No, I don't have any evidence that He's in me. That's another thing I've learned. I'm waiting for the fruits of the Spirit but then I'm afraid of deceiving myself - that I'm trying to walk in love, peace, joy but it's just me in my flesh.

Have you ever heard of such a messed up, crazy, disaster of a person as me and that they got better? I feel like I didn't just simply trust God and now I know so much that I'm monitoring what God is doing in my life. I'm so bad. And I didn't realize what I was doing until the last few months and still fear it's too late for me.

I know the facts in my head but have trouble really believing in my heart.

What does "believing in my heart" mean, exactly? Do you think the faith you have as you begin to walk with God is as deep and full as it will ever be? Will your faith not expand as you journey with God? Scripture teaches that it does. So, then, why is a small faith at the start of your walk with God an issue? It's not.

I know the facts in my head but don't know if I believe them for myself is what I mean.

I haven't always believed it - I've questioned and have been skeptical.

So have I. Questioning and healthy skepticism is good. It's part of being a thinking, rational person. Here are some websites that will help answer your questions and challenge your skepticism:

www.crossexamined.org
www.reasonablefaith.org
www.str.org

Maybe I'll never believe. I really want to believe - I want to go to heaven. I don't want to live in fear. I wish I wanted God for God.

And what is supposed to happen as you focus on your lack of faith? Will your faith be encouraged? Will it be helped to grow by your despairing over its weakness? No. Take what little faith you have, what little desire to believe you've got and allow God to build on it. Take whatever small steps toward God that you can. He is not asking you to be a spiritual giant overnight. Like a baby learning to walk, the immature believer needs a lot of support and assistance as s/he learns to stand and gains the strength to walk and run.

Again, I just feel like I know so much that I need to be obeying every little thing that I know. That it's my punishment for running ahead and wanting to be a perfectionist. I overthink everything. I still see God as an angry taskmaster and not a loving Father. So that's how I operate even though I know in my head that's not right. I think I should be this, do that, say this, think that (but it's not sincere) I'm just a mess. My mind is crazy. I think I've been "given over" to my lusts and desires for knowledge and being my own god. My mind is just constantly fixated on this and I'm constantly feeling condemned. I think true believers at least have a balance where they're not constantly obsessing about God and all this stuff. I don't know how to shut off this brain. Quiet it down. And I don't know if I can say enough to get anyone to understand the madness I've gotten myself into. I wish I wasn't this obsessive, overthinking, overanalyzing mess.

And thank you again for your replies and support.

 

[diana092086]

@ diana092086:

Do you think this is so because you are too full of yourself? What room is there in you for God?

Wouldn't that be a work of my own to "make room" for God?

You aren't a puppet. Or a robot. You are response-able - responsible - for the choices you make. In any case, I didn't suggest that you make room. I was merely observing the problem you're having with God.

I know all these things. I've tried to ask God/surrender to Him. I know so much. I know all these things that are supposed to happen in the Christian life but without being one. I think I'm deceiving myself.

I don't think you do know "all these things." Or, perhaps, the problem is that, while knowing them, you don't really understand them.

I'm still afraid that I've learned too much to be genuine and sincere. Jesus says to come to Him with childlike faith - I've way complicated things and wanted to figure everything out before coming to Him. So, I think it's too late for me - as if I know all the things I'm supposed to think, say, do that it's not authentic. I feel like I'm an impostor, an actress, a phony. I'm seeing more and more how horrible I am and have been - like I stated in my original post, I've never felt like my own person. I've always wanted to be like someone else. Never really having any good desires of my own. Looking back on my childhood and growing up, I was shy and insecure. I didn't make friends easily. I didn't love being around tons of people. And I thought of this today and it's really, really awful - I bonded with and became best friends with someone who "got me," someone who was shy like me, someone I could vent to and complain to about others. We bonded over making fun of others, being critical, negative. At the time, I didn't think that was abnormal. I didn't see how evil that was and now I do. I think that's just who I am and I can't change myself. And I think that if I go to God now that it's not sincere. That I'm going to Him to change me because I want to go to heaven and not that I really feel bad I've offended Him. I'm still just concerned about me. I'm rotten through and through.

It's a certainty that you are deceiving yourself in some way. We all are. That's why God is so necessary. He peels off the blinders of self-deception that we cannot recognize we have. And these blinders must come off if we are to walk well with Him.

I know this too. But I don't know how to let Him. I know He chooses some, not all. He draws who He saves. He chooses, then who He chooses responds to Him. I can't choose Him.

Uh oh. I can see now part of your underlying problem: Calvinist/Reformed theology. There are better, more biblically-accurate, more rational, approaches to the doctrines of salvation than Calvinism:

www.soteriology101.com See also "Molinism" at www.reasonablefaith.org

You can and must freely choose God. He does the work of drawing you, convicting you, illuminating your mind to His truth, persuading you to choose Christ, but, in the end, you must choose. As I said, you aren't a robot or puppet. It won't wash, then, to take refuge from your unwillingness to bend your knee to God in the Calvinist idea of Election. It is not God's fault that you are unwilling to yield to Him; it's entirely yours.

Thank you for the resources. I'll have to check them out. Does He do that for everyone though - the drawing, convicting, illuminating truth, persuading to Christ? Because when I've read the Bible, I've just read it and it's been over my head. I always questioned its truth. So, I went outside the Bible to "verify." Some people have said that some people will read the Bible, find it to be true, find God (His sheep? (My sheep hear my voice...?)) while others will read it, do not get it, and do not find God (the goats?) I've never seen the beauty and glory of Christ. I know as facts that I'm a sinner, Christ died for sinners...but it hasn't been personal for me. It's just in my head to where it hasn't really affected me. So when I've seen true believers and their response to God, I wondered what was wrong with me. I know we're supposed to respond in gratitude and love. But that was never my genuine response. Again, I fear it's too late for me because I know I should respond in gratitude and love but it wouldn't be genuine for me knowing that. I think about this too - that if it was just me and the Bible, I wouldn't see or experience God's love. It's when I talk with others, learn from others about how they see and experience God, that I think it's possible to for me to see and experience God in that way too. But then I go on my own again and only see and experience the judgment and wrath. It's like no matter what I do, I can't see His love for me. I don't get it. I feel like I'm immune to it, to the Gospel.

I feel in a way this would be me trying to save myself - trying to focus on Him, dwell on Him and that I'm still without the Holy Spirit.

God has made every one of us to be conformed in some measure and way to that upon which we focus. It's just human nature. Why would God not use this characteristic to His ends in our lives? You will be conformed to your focus. If your focus is upon you, you will remain caught in yourself, growing more and more hardened in who you are. But if you'll turn your eyes upon Christ, as the Bible commands, and keep your focus upon him, human nature being what it is, you will begin to be conformed to him. Is this saving yourself? No. But it is cooperating with God in the transformation He wants to work in you.

So, say I'm not saved, can I still do this? I just feel like I'd be insincere and only operating in my flesh and without the Holy Spirit.

Some people just can't believe. I really wish I could. I know I can't make myself.

Forgive me for being blunt, but this is nonsense. It is so...human of you to try to distance yourself from your responsibility to choose Christ. The fact is, you can't go a day without exercising faith in something: your hairstylist, your doctor, your dentist, the mailman, the cook at your favorite restaurant, the power company, other drivers on the road, and so on. You can believe and you do so all the time. You simply don't want to believe in God. He gets in the way of running your own life as you like, of being your own boss.

Can you make yourself want God? No. But you can certainly appeal to God to change what you desire.

I want heaven (or so I think) but I'm pretty sure I don't want God. I've learned also that God only hears (responds to) the prayer of repentance from sinners. Otherwise, the prayers of sinners are an abomination and He doesn't answer them or respond to them. He only answers prayers of believers and if it's according to His will. So, that's been another hindrance for me (learning too much that it's harming me...no wonder He said come to me with childlike faith) I think He won't hear me or that it's not His will to save me.


I'm still afraid of hell.

And so you should be. This is the eternal destiny of all those who want their own way rather than God's, who want to be their own god. God will give each of them exactly what they want: an existence separate from Him where they can absorb themselves entirely with themselves forever.

I've always asked about their faith and desired that kind of faith for myself - so I tried to learn so much to see if that would help me, but it didn't.

Learning about God cannot make up for knowing Him personally. Knowledge of God is important, but it is not God Himself. But this is what you need. Not more facts about God, but God Himself. The problem is, you want yourself more than you want Him. This only God can change. And He will as you persist in asking Him to do so. You aren't beyond God's power to change - though I think you may want to be.

You're right - I do want myself more than God. With reference to above about the prayers, I fear He won't hear me though. That He knows I want myself more than Him. And He knows better than I do. I think I want heaven and Him but maybe I really don't. I don't want to suffer in hell. I see true believers and would like what they have (I've also learned that no one seeks after God. People may seek after the benefits/comforts but not God Himself) So, I think that's me (another hindrance) and that I don't want God but the benefits.

I just don't think I'm chosen. I don't know what to do anymore. Walk away? - I really don't want to. Kill myself? - I really don't want to. I wish I just had a simple faith in Him and had that relationship. I just feel like I'm forcing something that's not for me.

Well, of course it's not you. You are, left to yourself, only about you. You know enough to know you ought to be different and some part of you seems to want that, so take the small step of asking God to change you. You don't have to have some great, swelling desire to change. A tiny glimmer of interest is enough. But act on that glimmer and press God to do what only He can do in you.

None of us is "chosen" in the Calvinist sense. That's just irrational nonsense. We are elect in Christ. All those who choose him become elect in him. You can't escape being responsible for what you choose. You know the Gospel, you know the truth of God's revelation of Himself in His word, and now you are doubly responsible for what you do with that knowledge.

Killing yourself is not the answer. Yielding to God is. Are you so self-obsessed that you would die rather than submit yourself to your loving, gracious Creator?

You make it sound so appealing - submitting to my loving, gracious Creator. So then I want to (or so I think I do) but maybe I don't understand what it means and don't really want to. I overthink and overanalyze everything. I've confused myself to nth degree with all these things so I'm not even sure what exactly I need to repent of, maybe I'm thinking things are sin and maybe they're not (I'm very OCD, have particular ways of doing things, being organized, etc.) my brain is so messed up. I also know so many things I ought to do and I often do them out of duty/obligation but not that I genuinely want to do them. Example: I'm genuinely not compassionate but "put on" a compassionate attitude but feel so fake since that's not how I genuinely feel.

Like I said earlier, I just feel empty and void too.

This is exactly how you ought to feel without God on the throne of your heart where He should be. When He is not seated there, you are not whole.

I'm not really impressed by much. I feel so hardened. I know how terrible I am - I've asked God to save me so many times.

Are you thinking that when you ask God to save you that somehow you ought to be instantly and forever transformed into an all-perfected saint? God saves sinners. He saves miserable, sin-cursed wretches caught up in all sorts of vile things. And when He does, He then sets about cleaning them up and deepening them in their walk with Him. This is a life-long process of transformation, however; it does not happen instantly. Every child of God comes to love God more and more over time; every child of God comes to trust Him more and more over time; every child of God comes to enjoy God more and more over time; and every child of God learns to die to themselves more and more over time.

Has God saved you? I don't know. Do you exhibit the marks of God's indwelling Spirit?

No, I don't have any evidence that He's in me. That's another thing I've learned. I'm waiting for the fruits of the Spirit but then I'm afraid of deceiving myself - that I'm trying to walk in love, peace, joy but it's just me in my flesh.

Have you ever heard of such a messed up, crazy, disaster of a person as me and that they got better? I feel like I didn't just simply trust God and now I know so much that I'm monitoring what God is doing in my life. I'm so bad. And I didn't realize what I was doing until the last few months and still fear it's too late for me.

I know the facts in my head but have trouble really believing in my heart.

What does "believing in my heart" mean, exactly? Do you think the faith you have as you begin to walk with God is as deep and full as it will ever be? Will your faith not expand as you journey with God? Scripture teaches that it does. So, then, why is a small faith at the start of your walk with God an issue? It's not.

I know the facts in my head but don't know if I believe them for myself is what I mean.

I haven't always believed it - I've questioned and have been skeptical.

So have I. Questioning and healthy skepticism is good. It's part of being a thinking, rational person. Here are some websites that will help answer your questions and challenge your skepticism:

www.crossexamined.org
www.reasonablefaith.org
www.str.org

Maybe I'll never believe. I really want to believe - I want to go to heaven. I don't want to live in fear. I wish I wanted God for God.

And what is supposed to happen as you focus on your lack of faith? Will your faith be encouraged? Will it be helped to grow by your despairing over its weakness? No. Take what little faith you have, what little desire to believe you've got and allow God to build on it. Take whatever small steps toward God that you can. He is not asking you to be a spiritual giant overnight. Like a baby learning to walk, the immature believer needs a lot of support and assistance as s/he learns to stand and gains the strength to walk and run.

Again, I just feel like I know so much that I need to be obeying every little thing that I know. That it's my punishment for running ahead and wanting to be a perfectionist. I overthink everything. I still see God as an angry taskmaster and not a loving Father. So that's how I operate even though I know in my head that's not right. I think I should be this, do that, say this, think that (but it's not sincere) I'm just a mess. My mind is crazy. I think I've been "given over" to my lusts and desires for knowledge and being my own god. My mind is just constantly fixated on this and I'm constantly feeling condemned. I think true believers at least have a balance where they're not constantly obsessing about God and all this stuff. I don't know how to shut off this brain. Quiet it down. And I don't know if I can say enough to get anyone to understand the madness I've gotten myself into. I wish I wasn't this obsessive, overthinking, overanalyzing mess.

And thank you again for your replies and support.

 

[diana092086]

I know all these things. I've tried to ask God/surrender to Him. I know so much. I know all these things that are supposed to happen in the Christian life but without being one. I think I'm deceiving myself.

I don't think you do know "all these things." Or, perhaps, the problem is that, while knowing them, you don't really understand them.

I'm still afraid that I've learned too much to be genuine and sincere. Jesus says to come to Him with childlike faith - I've way complicated things and wanted to figure everything out before coming to Him. So, I think it's too late for me - as if I know all the things I'm supposed to think, say, do that it's not authentic. I feel like I'm an impostor, an actress, a phony. I'm seeing more and more how horrible I am and have been - like I stated in my original post, I've never felt like my own person. I've always wanted to be like someone else. Never really having any good desires of my own. Looking back on my childhood and growing up, I was shy and insecure. I didn't make friends easily. I didn't love being around tons of people. And I thought of this today and it's really, really awful - I bonded with and became best friends with someone who "got me," someone who was shy like me, someone I could vent to and complain to about others. We bonded over making fun of others, being critical, negative. At the time, I didn't think that was abnormal. I didn't see how evil that was and now I do. I think that's just who I am and I can't change myself. And I think that if I go to God now that it's not sincere. That I'm going to Him to change me because I want to go to heaven and not that I really feel bad I've offended Him. I'm still just concerned about me. I'm rotten through and through.

www.soteriology101.com See also "Molinism" at www.reasonablefaith.org

You can and must freely choose God. He does the work of drawing you, convicting you, illuminating your mind to His truth, persuading you to choose Christ, but, in the end, you must choose. As I said, you aren't a robot or puppet. It won't wash, then, to take refuge from your unwillingness to bend your knee to God in the Calvinist idea of Election. It is not God's fault that you are unwilling to yield to Him; it's entirely yours.

Thank you for the resources. I'll have to check them out. Does He do that for everyone though - the drawing, convicting, illuminating truth, persuading to Christ? Because when I've read the Bible, I've just read it and it's been over my head. I always questioned its truth. So, I went outside the Bible to "verify." Some people have said that some people will read the Bible, find it to be true, find God (His sheep? (My sheep hear my voice...?)) while others will read it, do not get it, and do not find God (the goats?) I've never seen the beauty and glory of Christ. I know as facts that I'm a sinner, Christ died for sinners...but it hasn't been personal for me. It's just in my head to where it hasn't really affected me. So when I've seen true believers and their response to God, I wondered what was wrong with me. I know we're supposed to respond in gratitude and love. But that was never my genuine response. Again, I fear it's too late for me because I know I should respond in gratitude and love but it wouldn't be genuine for me knowing that. I think about this too - that if it was just me and the Bible, I wouldn't see or experience God's love. It's when I talk with others, learn from others about how they see and experience God, that I think it's possible to for me to see and experience God in that way too. But then I go on my own again and only see and experience the judgment and wrath. It's like no matter what I do, I can't see His love for me. I don't get it. I feel like I'm immune to it, to the Gospel.

I feel in a way this would be me trying to save myself - trying to focus on Him, dwell on Him and that I'm still without the Holy Spirit.

God has made every one of us to be conformed in some measure and way to that upon which we focus. It's just human nature. Why would God not use this characteristic to His ends in our lives? You will be conformed to your focus. If your focus is upon you, you will remain caught in yourself, growing more and more hardened in who you are. But if you'll turn your eyes upon Christ, as the Bible commands, and keep your focus upon him, human nature being what it is, you will begin to be conformed to him. Is this saving yourself? No. But it is cooperating with God in the transformation He wants to work in you.

So, say I'm not saved, can I still do this? I just feel like I'd be insincere and only operating in my flesh and without the Holy Spirit.

Some people just can't believe. I really wish I could. I know I can't make myself.

Forgive me for being blunt, but this is nonsense. It is so...human of you to try to distance yourself from your responsibility to choose Christ. The fact is, you can't go a day without exercising faith in something: your hairstylist, your doctor, your dentist, the mailman, the cook at your favorite restaurant, the power company, other drivers on the road, and so on. You can believe and you do so all the time. You simply don't want to believe in God. He gets in the way of running your own life as you like, of being your own boss.

Can you make yourself want God? No. But you can certainly appeal to God to change what you desire.

I want heaven (or so I think) but I'm pretty sure I don't want God. I've learned also that God only hears (responds to) the prayer of repentance from sinners. Otherwise, the prayers of sinners are an abomination and He doesn't answer them or respond to them. He only answers prayers of believers and if it's according to His will. So, that's been another hindrance for me (learning too much that it's harming me...no wonder He said come to me with childlike faith) I think He won't hear me or that it's not His will to save me.



You're right - I do want myself more than God. With reference to above about the prayers, I fear He won't hear me though. That He knows I want myself more than Him. And He knows better than I do. I think I want heaven and Him but maybe I really don't. I don't want to suffer in hell. I see true believers and would like what they have (I've also learned that no one seeks after God. People may seek after the benefits/comforts but not God Himself) So, I think that's me (another hindrance) and that I don't want God but the benefits.

I just don't think I'm chosen. I don't know what to do anymore. Walk away? - I really don't want to. Kill myself? - I really don't want to. I wish I just had a simple faith in Him and had that relationship. I just feel like I'm forcing something that's not for me.

Well, of course it's not you. You are, left to yourself, only about you. You know enough to know you ought to be different and some part of you seems to want that, so take the small step of asking God to change you. You don't have to have some great, swelling desire to change. A tiny glimmer of interest is enough. But act on that glimmer and press God to do what only He can do in you.

None of us is "chosen" in the Calvinist sense. That's just irrational nonsense. We are elect in Christ. All those who choose him become elect in him. You can't escape being responsible for what you choose. You know the Gospel, you know the truth of God's revelation of Himself in His word, and now you are doubly responsible for what you do with that knowledge.

Killing yourself is not the answer. Yielding to God is. Are you so self-obsessed that you would die rather than submit yourself to your loving, gracious Creator?

You make it sound so appealing - submitting to my loving, gracious Creator. So then I want to (or so I think I do) but maybe I don't understand what it means and don't really want to. I overthink and overanalyze everything. I've confused myself to nth degree with all these things so I'm not even sure what exactly I need to repent of, maybe I'm thinking things are sin and maybe they're not (I'm very OCD, have particular ways of doing things, being organized, etc.) my brain is so messed up. I also know so many things I ought to do and I often do them out of duty/obligation but not that I genuinely want to do them. Example: I'm genuinely not compassionate but "put on" a compassionate attitude but feel so fake since that's not how I genuinely feel.

Are you thinking that when you ask God to save you that somehow you ought to be instantly and forever transformed into an all-perfected saint? God saves sinners. He saves miserable, sin-cursed wretches caught up in all sorts of vile things. And when He does, He then sets about cleaning them up and deepening them in their walk with Him. This is a life-long process of transformation, however; it does not happen instantly. Every child of God comes to love God more and more over time; every child of God comes to trust Him more and more over time; every child of God comes to enjoy God more and more over time; and every child of God learns to die to themselves more and more over time.

Has God saved you? I don't know. Do you exhibit the marks of God's indwelling Spirit?

No, I don't have any evidence that He's in me. That's another thing I've learned. I'm waiting for the fruits of the Spirit but then I'm afraid of deceiving myself - that I'm trying to walk in love, peace, joy but it's just me in my flesh.

Have you ever heard of such a messed up, crazy, disaster of a person as me and that they got better? I feel like I didn't just simply trust God and now I know so much that I'm monitoring what God is doing in my life. I'm so bad. And I didn't realize what I was doing until the last few months and still fear it's too late for me.

I know the facts in my head but have trouble really believing in my heart.

What does "believing in my heart" mean, exactly? Do you think the faith you have as you begin to walk with God is as deep and full as it will ever be? Will your faith not expand as you journey with God? Scripture teaches that it does. So, then, why is a small faith at the start of your walk with God an issue? It's not.

I know the facts in my head but don't know if I believe them for myself is what I mean.


And what is supposed to happen as you focus on your lack of faith? Will your faith be encouraged? Will it be helped to grow by your despairing over its weakness? No. Take what little faith you have, what little desire to believe you've got and allow God to build on it. Take whatever small steps toward God that you can. He is not asking you to be a spiritual giant overnight. Like a baby learning to walk, the immature believer needs a lot of support and assistance as s/he learns to stand and gains the strength to walk and run.[/QUOTE]

Again, I just feel like I know so much that I need to be obeying every little thing that I know. That it's my punishment for running ahead and wanting to be a perfectionist. I overthink everything. I still see God as an angry taskmaster and not a loving Father. So that's how I operate even though I know in my head that's not right. I think I should be this, do that, say this, think that (but it's not sincere) I'm just a mess. My mind is crazy. I think I've been "given over" to my lusts and desires for knowledge and being my own god. My mind is just constantly fixated on this and I'm constantly feeling condemned. I think true believers at least have a balance where they're not constantly obsessing about God and all this stuff. I don't know how to shut off this brain. Quiet it down. And I don't know if I can say enough to get anyone to understand the madness I've gotten myself into. I wish I wasn't this obsessive, overthinking, overanalyzing mess.

And thank you again for your replies and support.

 

[diana092086]

I know all these things. I've tried to ask God/surrender to Him. I know so much. I know all these things that are supposed to happen in the Christian life but without being one. I think I'm deceiving myself.

I don't think you do know "all these things." Or, perhaps, the problem is that, while knowing them, you don't really understand them.

I'm still afraid that I've learned too much to be genuine and sincere. Jesus says to come to Him with childlike faith - I've way complicated things and wanted to figure everything out before coming to Him. So, I think it's too late for me - as if I know all the things I'm supposed to think, say, do that it's not authentic. I feel like I'm an impostor, an actress, a phony. I'm seeing more and more how horrible I am and have been - like I stated in my original post, I've never felt like my own person. I've always wanted to be like someone else. Never really having any good desires of my own. Looking back on my childhood and growing up, I was shy and insecure. I didn't make friends easily. I didn't love being around tons of people. And I thought of this today and it's really, really awful - I bonded with and became best friends with someone who "got me," someone who was shy like me, someone I could vent to and complain to about others. We bonded over making fun of others, being critical, negative. At the time, I didn't think that was abnormal. I didn't see how evil that was and now I do. I think that's just who I am and I can't change myself. And I think that if I go to God now that it's not sincere. That I'm going to Him to change me because I want to go to heaven and not that I really feel bad I've offended Him. I'm still just concerned about me. I'm rotten through and through.

www.soteriology101.com See also "Molinism" at www.reasonablefaith.org

You can and must freely choose God. He does the work of drawing you, convicting you, illuminating your mind to His truth, persuading you to choose Christ, but, in the end, you must choose. As I said, you aren't a robot or puppet. It won't wash, then, to take refuge from your unwillingness to bend your knee to God in the Calvinist idea of Election. It is not God's fault that you are unwilling to yield to Him; it's entirely yours.

Thank you for the resources. I'll have to check them out. Does He do that for everyone though - the drawing, convicting, illuminating truth, persuading to Christ? Because when I've read the Bible, I've just read it and it's been over my head. I always questioned its truth. So, I went outside the Bible to "verify." Some people have said that some people will read the Bible, find it to be true, find God (His sheep? (My sheep hear my voice...?)) while others will read it, do not get it, and do not find God (the goats?) I've never seen the beauty and glory of Christ. I know as facts that I'm a sinner, Christ died for sinners...but it hasn't been personal for me. It's just in my head to where it hasn't really affected me. So when I've seen true believers and their response to God, I wondered what was wrong with me. I know we're supposed to respond in gratitude and love. But that was never my genuine response. Again, I fear it's too late for me because I know I should respond in gratitude and love but it wouldn't be genuine for me knowing that. I think about this too - that if it was just me and the Bible, I wouldn't see or experience God's love. It's when I talk with others, learn from others about how they see and experience God, that I think it's possible to for me to see and experience God in that way too. But then I go on my own again and only see and experience the judgment and wrath. It's like no matter what I do, I can't see His love for me. I don't get it. I feel like I'm immune to it, to the Gospel.

I feel in a way this would be me trying to save myself - trying to focus on Him, dwell on Him and that I'm still without the Holy Spirit.

God has made every one of us to be conformed in some measure and way to that upon which we focus. It's just human nature. Why would God not use this characteristic to His ends in our lives? You will be conformed to your focus. If your focus is upon you, you will remain caught in yourself, growing more and more hardened in who you are. But if you'll turn your eyes upon Christ, as the Bible commands, and keep your focus upon him, human nature being what it is, you will begin to be conformed to him. Is this saving yourself? No. But it is cooperating with God in the transformation He wants to work in you.

So, say I'm not saved, can I still do this? I just feel like I'd be insincere and only operating in my flesh and without the Holy Spirit.

Some people just can't believe. I really wish I could. I know I can't make myself.

Forgive me for being blunt, but this is nonsense. It is so...human of you to try to distance yourself from your responsibility to choose Christ. The fact is, you can't go a day without exercising faith in something: your hairstylist, your doctor, your dentist, the mailman, the cook at your favorite restaurant, the power company, other drivers on the road, and so on. You can believe and you do so all the time. You simply don't want to believe in God. He gets in the way of running your own life as you like, of being your own boss.

Can you make yourself want God? No. But you can certainly appeal to God to change what you desire.

I want heaven (or so I think) but I'm pretty sure I don't want God. I've learned also that God only hears (responds to) the prayer of repentance from sinners. Otherwise, the prayers of sinners are an abomination and He doesn't answer them or respond to them. He only answers prayers of believers and if it's according to His will. So, that's been another hindrance for me (learning too much that it's harming me...no wonder He said come to me with childlike faith) I think He won't hear me or that it's not His will to save me.



You're right - I do want myself more than God. With reference to above about the prayers, I fear He won't hear me though. That He knows I want myself more than Him. And He knows better than I do. I think I want heaven and Him but maybe I really don't. I don't want to suffer in hell. I see true believers and would like what they have (I've also learned that no one seeks after God. People may seek after the benefits/comforts but not God Himself) So, I think that's me (another hindrance) and that I don't want God but the benefits.

I just don't think I'm chosen. I don't know what to do anymore. Walk away? - I really don't want to. Kill myself? - I really don't want to. I wish I just had a simple faith in Him and had that relationship. I just feel like I'm forcing something that's not for me.

Well, of course it's not you. You are, left to yourself, only about you. You know enough to know you ought to be different and some part of you seems to want that, so take the small step of asking God to change you. You don't have to have some great, swelling desire to change. A tiny glimmer of interest is enough. But act on that glimmer and press God to do what only He can do in you.

None of us is "chosen" in the Calvinist sense. That's just irrational nonsense. We are elect in Christ. All those who choose him become elect in him. You can't escape being responsible for what you choose. You know the Gospel, you know the truth of God's revelation of Himself in His word, and now you are doubly responsible for what you do with that knowledge.

Killing yourself is not the answer. Yielding to God is. Are you so self-obsessed that you would die rather than submit yourself to your loving, gracious Creator?

You make it sound so appealing - submitting to my loving, gracious Creator. So then I want to (or so I think I do) but maybe I don't understand what it means and don't really want to. I overthink and overanalyze everything. I've confused myself to nth degree with all these things so I'm not even sure what exactly I need to repent of, maybe I'm thinking things are sin and maybe they're not (I'm very OCD, have particular ways of doing things, being organized, etc.) my brain is so messed up. I also know so many things I ought to do and I often do them out of duty/obligation but not that I genuinely want to do them. Example: I'm genuinely not compassionate but "put on" a compassionate attitude but feel so fake since that's not how I genuinely feel.

Are you thinking that when you ask God to save you that somehow you ought to be instantly and forever transformed into an all-perfected saint? God saves sinners. He saves miserable, sin-cursed wretches caught up in all sorts of vile things. And when He does, He then sets about cleaning them up and deepening them in their walk with Him. This is a life-long process of transformation, however; it does not happen instantly. Every child of God comes to love God more and more over time; every child of God comes to trust Him more and more over time; every child of God comes to enjoy God more and more over time; and every child of God learns to die to themselves more and more over time.

Has God saved you? I don't know. Do you exhibit the marks of God's indwelling Spirit?

No, I don't have any evidence that He's in me. That's another thing I've learned. I'm waiting for the fruits of the Spirit but then I'm afraid of deceiving myself - that I'm trying to walk in love, peace, joy but it's just me in my flesh.

Have you ever heard of such a messed up, crazy, disaster of a person as me and that they got better? I feel like I didn't just simply trust God and now I know so much that I'm monitoring what God is doing in my life. I'm so bad. And I didn't realize what I was doing until the last few months and still fear it's too late for me.

I know the facts in my head but have trouble really believing in my heart.

What does "believing in my heart" mean, exactly? Do you think the faith you have as you begin to walk with God is as deep and full as it will ever be? Will your faith not expand as you journey with God? Scripture teaches that it does. So, then, why is a small faith at the start of your walk with God an issue? It's not.

I know the facts in my head but don't know if I believe them for myself is what I mean.


And what is supposed to happen as you focus on your lack of faith? Will your faith be encouraged? Will it be helped to grow by your despairing over its weakness? No. Take what little faith you have, what little desire to believe you've got and allow God to build on it. Take whatever small steps toward God that you can. He is not asking you to be a spiritual giant overnight. Like a baby learning to walk, the immature believer needs a lot of support and assistance as s/he learns to stand and gains the strength to walk and run.[/QUOTE]

Again, I just feel like I know so much that I need to be obeying every little thing that I know. That it's my punishment for running ahead and wanting to be a perfectionist. I overthink everything. I still see God as an angry taskmaster and not a loving Father. So that's how I operate even though I know in my head that's not right. I think I should be this, do that, say this, think that (but it's not sincere) I'm just a mess. My mind is crazy. I think I've been "given over" to my lusts and desires for knowledge and being my own god. My mind is just constantly fixated on this and I'm constantly feeling condemned. I think true believers at least have a balance where they're not constantly obsessing about God and all this stuff. I don't know how to shut off this brain. Quiet it down. And I don't know if I can say enough to get anyone to understand the madness I've gotten myself into. I wish I wasn't this obsessive, overthinking, overanalyzing mess.

And thank you again for your replies and support.

 

[diana092086]

I know all these things. I've tried to ask God/surrender to Him. I know so much. I know all these things that are supposed to happen in the Christian life but without being one. I think I'm deceiving myself.

I don't think you do know "all these things." Or, perhaps, the problem is that, while knowing them, you don't really understand them.

I'm still afraid that I've learned too much to be genuine and sincere. Jesus says to come to Him with childlike faith - I've way complicated things and wanted to figure everything out before coming to Him. So, I think it's too late for me - as if I know all the things I'm supposed to think, say, do that it's not authentic. I feel like I'm an impostor, an actress, a phony. I'm seeing more and more how horrible I am and have been - like I stated in my original post, I've never felt like my own person. I've always wanted to be like someone else. Never really having any good desires of my own. Looking back on my childhood and growing up, I was shy and insecure. I didn't make friends easily. I didn't love being around tons of people. And I thought of this today and it's really, really awful - I bonded with and became best friends with someone who "got me," someone who was shy like me, someone I could vent to and complain to about others. We bonded over making fun of others, being critical, negative. At the time, I didn't think that was abnormal. I didn't see how evil that was and now I do. I think that's just who I am and I can't change myself. And I think that if I go to God now that it's not sincere. That I'm going to Him to change me because I want to go to heaven and not that I really feel bad I've offended Him. I'm still just concerned about me. I'm rotten through and through.

www.soteriology101.com See also "Molinism" at www.reasonablefaith.org

You can and must freely choose God. He does the work of drawing you, convicting you, illuminating your mind to His truth, persuading you to choose Christ, but, in the end, you must choose. As I said, you aren't a robot or puppet. It won't wash, then, to take refuge from your unwillingness to bend your knee to God in the Calvinist idea of Election. It is not God's fault that you are unwilling to yield to Him; it's entirely yours.

Thank you for the resources. I'll have to check them out. Does He do that for everyone though - the drawing, convicting, illuminating truth, persuading to Christ? Because when I've read the Bible, I've just read it and it's been over my head. I always questioned its truth. So, I went outside the Bible to "verify." Some people have said that some people will read the Bible, find it to be true, find God (His sheep? (My sheep hear my voice...?)) while others will read it, do not get it, and do not find God (the goats?) I've never seen the beauty and glory of Christ. I know as facts that I'm a sinner, Christ died for sinners...but it hasn't been personal for me. It's just in my head to where it hasn't really affected me. So when I've seen true believers and their response to God, I wondered what was wrong with me. I know we're supposed to respond in gratitude and love. But that was never my genuine response. Again, I fear it's too late for me because I know I should respond in gratitude and love but it wouldn't be genuine for me knowing that. I think about this too - that if it was just me and the Bible, I wouldn't see or experience God's love. It's when I talk with others, learn from others about how they see and experience God, that I think it's possible to for me to see and experience God in that way too. But then I go on my own again and only see and experience the judgment and wrath. It's like no matter what I do, I can't see His love for me. I don't get it. I feel like I'm immune to it, to the Gospel.

I feel in a way this would be me trying to save myself - trying to focus on Him, dwell on Him and that I'm still without the Holy Spirit.

God has made every one of us to be conformed in some measure and way to that upon which we focus. It's just human nature. Why would God not use this characteristic to His ends in our lives? You will be conformed to your focus. If your focus is upon you, you will remain caught in yourself, growing more and more hardened in who you are. But if you'll turn your eyes upon Christ, as the Bible commands, and keep your focus upon him, human nature being what it is, you will begin to be conformed to him. Is this saving yourself? No. But it is cooperating with God in the transformation He wants to work in you.

So, say I'm not saved, can I still do this? I just feel like I'd be insincere and only operating in my flesh and without the Holy Spirit.

Some people just can't believe. I really wish I could. I know I can't make myself.

Forgive me for being blunt, but this is nonsense. It is so...human of you to try to distance yourself from your responsibility to choose Christ. The fact is, you can't go a day without exercising faith in something: your hairstylist, your doctor, your dentist, the mailman, the cook at your favorite restaurant, the power company, other drivers on the road, and so on. You can believe and you do so all the time. You simply don't want to believe in God. He gets in the way of running your own life as you like, of being your own boss.

Can you make yourself want God? No. But you can certainly appeal to God to change what you desire.

I want heaven (or so I think) but I'm pretty sure I don't want God. I've learned also that God only hears (responds to) the prayer of repentance from sinners. Otherwise, the prayers of sinners are an abomination and He doesn't answer them or respond to them. He only answers prayers of believers and if it's according to His will. So, that's been another hindrance for me (learning too much that it's harming me...no wonder He said come to me with childlike faith) I think He won't hear me or that it's not His will to save me.



You're right - I do want myself more than God. With reference to above about the prayers, I fear He won't hear me though. That He knows I want myself more than Him. And He knows better than I do. I think I want heaven and Him but maybe I really don't. I don't want to suffer in hell. I see true believers and would like what they have (I've also learned that no one seeks after God. People may seek after the benefits/comforts but not God Himself) So, I think that's me (another hindrance) and that I don't want God but the benefits.

I just don't think I'm chosen. I don't know what to do anymore. Walk away? - I really don't want to. Kill myself? - I really don't want to. I wish I just had a simple faith in Him and had that relationship. I just feel like I'm forcing something that's not for me.

Well, of course it's not you. You are, left to yourself, only about you. You know enough to know you ought to be different and some part of you seems to want that, so take the small step of asking God to change you. You don't have to have some great, swelling desire to change. A tiny glimmer of interest is enough. But act on that glimmer and press God to do what only He can do in you.

None of us is "chosen" in the Calvinist sense. That's just irrational nonsense. We are elect in Christ. All those who choose him become elect in him. You can't escape being responsible for what you choose. You know the Gospel, you know the truth of God's revelation of Himself in His word, and now you are doubly responsible for what you do with that knowledge.

Killing yourself is not the answer. Yielding to God is. Are you so self-obsessed that you would die rather than submit yourself to your loving, gracious Creator?

You make it sound so appealing - submitting to my loving, gracious Creator. So then I want to (or so I think I do) but maybe I don't understand what it means and don't really want to. I overthink and overanalyze everything. I've confused myself to nth degree with all these things so I'm not even sure what exactly I need to repent of, maybe I'm thinking things are sin and maybe they're not (I'm very OCD, have particular ways of doing things, being organized, etc.) my brain is so messed up. I also know so many things I ought to do and I often do them out of duty/obligation but not that I genuinely want to do them. Example: I'm genuinely not compassionate but "put on" a compassionate attitude but feel so fake since that's not how I genuinely feel.

Are you thinking that when you ask God to save you that somehow you ought to be instantly and forever transformed into an all-perfected saint? God saves sinners. He saves miserable, sin-cursed wretches caught up in all sorts of vile things. And when He does, He then sets about cleaning them up and deepening them in their walk with Him. This is a life-long process of transformation, however; it does not happen instantly. Every child of God comes to love God more and more over time; every child of God comes to trust Him more and more over time; every child of God comes to enjoy God more and more over time; and every child of God learns to die to themselves more and more over time.

Has God saved you? I don't know. Do you exhibit the marks of God's indwelling Spirit?

No, I don't have any evidence that He's in me. That's another thing I've learned. I'm waiting for the fruits of the Spirit but then I'm afraid of deceiving myself - that I'm trying to walk in love, peace, joy but it's just me in my flesh.

Have you ever heard of such a messed up, crazy, disaster of a person as me and that they got better? I feel like I didn't just simply trust God and now I know so much that I'm monitoring what God is doing in my life. I'm so bad. And I didn't realize what I was doing until the last few months and still fear it's too late for me.

I know the facts in my head but have trouble really believing in my heart.

What does "believing in my heart" mean, exactly? Do you think the faith you have as you begin to walk with God is as deep and full as it will ever be? Will your faith not expand as you journey with God? Scripture teaches that it does. So, then, why is a small faith at the start of your walk with God an issue? It's not.

I know the facts in my head but don't know if I believe them for myself is what I mean.


And what is supposed to happen as you focus on your lack of faith? Will your faith be encouraged? Will it be helped to grow by your despairing over its weakness? No. Take what little faith you have, what little desire to believe you've got and allow God to build on it. Take whatever small steps toward God that you can. He is not asking you to be a spiritual giant overnight. Like a baby learning to walk, the immature believer needs a lot of support and assistance as s/he learns to stand and gains the strength to walk and run.[/QUOTE]

Again, I just feel like I know so much that I need to be obeying every little thing that I know. That it's my punishment for running ahead and wanting to be a perfectionist. I overthink everything. I still see God as an angry taskmaster and not a loving Father. So that's how I operate even though I know in my head that's not right. I think I should be this, do that, say this, think that (but it's not sincere) I'm just a mess. My mind is crazy. I think I've been "given over" to my lusts and desires for knowledge and being my own god. My mind is just constantly fixated on this and I'm constantly feeling condemned. I think true believers at least have a balance where they're not constantly obsessing about God and all this stuff. I don't know how to shut off this brain. Quiet it down. And I don't know if I can say enough to get anyone to understand the madness I've gotten myself into. I wish I wasn't this obsessive, overthinking, overanalyzing mess.

And thank you again for your replies and support.

 

[diana092086]

I know all these things. I've tried to ask God/surrender to Him. I know so much. I know all these things that are supposed to happen in the Christian life but without being one. I think I'm deceiving myself.

I don't think you do know "all these things." Or, perhaps, the problem is that, while knowing them, you don't really understand them.

I'm still afraid that I've learned too much to be genuine and sincere. Jesus says to come to Him with childlike faith - I've way complicated things and wanted to figure everything out before coming to Him. So, I think it's too late for me - as if I know all the things I'm supposed to think, say, do that it's not authentic. I feel like I'm an impostor, an actress, a phony. I'm seeing more and more how horrible I am and have been - like I stated in my original post, I've never felt like my own person. I've always wanted to be like someone else. Never really having any good desires of my own. Looking back on my childhood and growing up, I was shy and insecure. I didn't make friends easily. I didn't love being around tons of people. And I thought of this today and it's really, really awful - I bonded with and became best friends with someone who "got me," someone who was shy like me, someone I could vent to and complain to about others. We bonded over making fun of others, being critical, negative. At the time, I didn't think that was abnormal. I didn't see how evil that was and now I do. I think that's just who I am and I can't change myself. And I think that if I go to God now that it's not sincere. That I'm going to Him to change me because I want to go to heaven and not that I really feel bad I've offended Him. I'm still just concerned about me. I'm rotten through and through.

www.soteriology101.com See also "Molinism" at www.reasonablefaith.org

You can and must freely choose God. He does the work of drawing you, convicting you, illuminating your mind to His truth, persuading you to choose Christ, but, in the end, you must choose. As I said, you aren't a robot or puppet. It won't wash, then, to take refuge from your unwillingness to bend your knee to God in the Calvinist idea of Election. It is not God's fault that you are unwilling to yield to Him; it's entirely yours.

Thank you for the resources. I'll have to check them out. Does He do that for everyone though - the drawing, convicting, illuminating truth, persuading to Christ? Because when I've read the Bible, I've just read it and it's been over my head. I always questioned its truth. So, I went outside the Bible to "verify." Some people have said that some people will read the Bible, find it to be true, find God (His sheep? (My sheep hear my voice...?)) while others will read it, do not get it, and do not find God (the goats?) I've never seen the beauty and glory of Christ. I know as facts that I'm a sinner, Christ died for sinners...but it hasn't been personal for me. It's just in my head to where it hasn't really affected me. So when I've seen true believers and their response to God, I wondered what was wrong with me. I know we're supposed to respond in gratitude and love. But that was never my genuine response. Again, I fear it's too late for me because I know I should respond in gratitude and love but it wouldn't be genuine for me knowing that. I think about this too - that if it was just me and the Bible, I wouldn't see or experience God's love. It's when I talk with others, learn from others about how they see and experience God, that I think it's possible to for me to see and experience God in that way too. But then I go on my own again and only see and experience the judgment and wrath. It's like no matter what I do, I can't see His love for me. I don't get it. I feel like I'm immune to it, to the Gospel.

I feel in a way this would be me trying to save myself - trying to focus on Him, dwell on Him and that I'm still without the Holy Spirit.

God has made every one of us to be conformed in some measure and way to that upon which we focus. It's just human nature. Why would God not use this characteristic to His ends in our lives? You will be conformed to your focus. If your focus is upon you, you will remain caught in yourself, growing more and more hardened in who you are. But if you'll turn your eyes upon Christ, as the Bible commands, and keep your focus upon him, human nature being what it is, you will begin to be conformed to him. Is this saving yourself? No. But it is cooperating with God in the transformation He wants to work in you.

So, say I'm not saved, can I still do this? I just feel like I'd be insincere and only operating in my flesh and without the Holy Spirit.

Some people just can't believe. I really wish I could. I know I can't make myself.

Forgive me for being blunt, but this is nonsense. It is so...human of you to try to distance yourself from your responsibility to choose Christ. The fact is, you can't go a day without exercising faith in something: your hairstylist, your doctor, your dentist, the mailman, the cook at your favorite restaurant, the power company, other drivers on the road, and so on. You can believe and you do so all the time. You simply don't want to believe in God. He gets in the way of running your own life as you like, of being your own boss.

Can you make yourself want God? No. But you can certainly appeal to God to change what you desire.

I want heaven (or so I think) but I'm pretty sure I don't want God. I've learned also that God only hears (responds to) the prayer of repentance from sinners. Otherwise, the prayers of sinners are an abomination and He doesn't answer them or respond to them. He only answers prayers of believers and if it's according to His will. So, that's been another hindrance for me (learning too much that it's harming me...no wonder He said come to me with childlike faith) I think He won't hear me or that it's not His will to save me.



You're right - I do want myself more than God. With reference to above about the prayers, I fear He won't hear me though. That He knows I want myself more than Him. And He knows better than I do. I think I want heaven and Him but maybe I really don't. I don't want to suffer in hell. I see true believers and would like what they have (I've also learned that no one seeks after God. People may seek after the benefits/comforts but not God Himself) So, I think that's me (another hindrance) and that I don't want God but the benefits.

I just don't think I'm chosen. I don't know what to do anymore. Walk away? - I really don't want to. Kill myself? - I really don't want to. I wish I just had a simple faith in Him and had that relationship. I just feel like I'm forcing something that's not for me.

Well, of course it's not you. You are, left to yourself, only about you. You know enough to know you ought to be different and some part of you seems to want that, so take the small step of asking God to change you. You don't have to have some great, swelling desire to change. A tiny glimmer of interest is enough. But act on that glimmer and press God to do what only He can do in you.

None of us is "chosen" in the Calvinist sense. That's just irrational nonsense. We are elect in Christ. All those who choose him become elect in him. You can't escape being responsible for what you choose. You know the Gospel, you know the truth of God's revelation of Himself in His word, and now you are doubly responsible for what you do with that knowledge.

Killing yourself is not the answer. Yielding to God is. Are you so self-obsessed that you would die rather than submit yourself to your loving, gracious Creator?

You make it sound so appealing - submitting to my loving, gracious Creator. So then I want to (or so I think I do) but maybe I don't understand what it means and don't really want to. I overthink and overanalyze everything. I've confused myself to nth degree with all these things so I'm not even sure what exactly I need to repent of, maybe I'm thinking things are sin and maybe they're not (I'm very OCD, have particular ways of doing things, being organized, etc.) my brain is so messed up. I also know so many things I ought to do and I often do them out of duty/obligation but not that I genuinely want to do them. Example: I'm genuinely not compassionate but "put on" a compassionate attitude but feel so fake since that's not how I genuinely feel.

Are you thinking that when you ask God to save you that somehow you ought to be instantly and forever transformed into an all-perfected saint? God saves sinners. He saves miserable, sin-cursed wretches caught up in all sorts of vile things. And when He does, He then sets about cleaning them up and deepening them in their walk with Him. This is a life-long process of transformation, however; it does not happen instantly. Every child of God comes to love God more and more over time; every child of God comes to trust Him more and more over time; every child of God comes to enjoy God more and more over time; and every child of God learns to die to themselves more and more over time.

Has God saved you? I don't know. Do you exhibit the marks of God's indwelling Spirit?

No, I don't have any evidence that He's in me. That's another thing I've learned. I'm waiting for the fruits of the Spirit but then I'm afraid of deceiving myself - that I'm trying to walk in love, peace, joy but it's just me in my flesh.

Have you ever heard of such a messed up, crazy, disaster of a person as me and that they got better? I feel like I didn't just simply trust God and now I know so much that I'm monitoring what God is doing in my life. I'm so bad. And I didn't realize what I was doing until the last few months and still fear it's too late for me.

I know the facts in my head but have trouble really believing in my heart.

What does "believing in my heart" mean, exactly? Do you think the faith you have as you begin to walk with God is as deep and full as it will ever be? Will your faith not expand as you journey with God? Scripture teaches that it does. So, then, why is a small faith at the start of your walk with God an issue? It's not.

I know the facts in my head but don't know if I believe them for myself is what I mean.


And what is supposed to happen as you focus on your lack of faith? Will your faith be encouraged? Will it be helped to grow by your despairing over its weakness? No. Take what little faith you have, what little desire to believe you've got and allow God to build on it. Take whatever small steps toward God that you can. He is not asking you to be a spiritual giant overnight. Like a baby learning to walk, the immature believer needs a lot of support and assistance as s/he learns to stand and gains the strength to walk and run.[/QUOTE]

Again, I just feel like I know so much that I need to be obeying every little thing that I know. That it's my punishment for running ahead and wanting to be a perfectionist. I overthink everything. I still see God as an angry taskmaster and not a loving Father. So that's how I operate even though I know in my head that's not right. I think I should be this, do that, say this, think that (but it's not sincere) I'm just a mess. My mind is crazy. I think I've been "given over" to my lusts and desires for knowledge and being my own god. My mind is just constantly fixated on this and I'm constantly feeling condemned. I think true believers at least have a balance where they're not constantly obsessing about God and all this stuff. I don't know how to shut off this brain. Quiet it down. And I don't know if I can say enough to get anyone to understand the madness I've gotten myself into. I wish I wasn't this obsessive, overthinking, overanalyzing mess.

And thank you again for your replies and support.

 

[diana092086]

Like I said earlier, I just feel empty and void too.

This is exactly how you ought to feel without God on the throne of your heart where He should be. When He is not seated there, you are not whole.

I think I've mentioned this earlier as well, but I don't feel like me anymore. Like I don't have the same thoughts or feelings about things that I used to (or I do and I try to suppress them and make myself have the thoughts and feelings that I've learned I ought to have). I just feel really weird, and again, fake, phony, and not genuine. I've also done things I regret and am ashamed of, and there are things that come up in life that remind me of the things I've done. Rather than having proper thoughts or feelings about these other things, I think I have unrighteous thoughts/feelings because I'm guilty of certain things. I should be compassionate and think/want righteousness.

I'm not really impressed by much. I feel so hardened. I know how terrible I am - I've asked God to save me so many times.

Are you thinking that when you ask God to save you that somehow you ought to be instantly and forever transformed into an all-perfected saint? God saves sinners. He saves miserable, sin-cursed wretches caught up in all sorts of vile things. And when He does, He then sets about cleaning them up and deepening them in their walk with Him. This is a life-long process of transformation, however; it does not happen instantly. Every child of God comes to love God more and more over time; every child of God comes to trust Him more and more over time; every child of God comes to enjoy God more and more over time; and every child of God learns to die to themselves more and more over time.

I understand and know all that. I know I won't be instantly transformed. But I'm confused by all the things that need changing. I'm just so, so confused and overthink it all. There are so many things I've learned that I think I need to change everything about me. Everything. My personality, the way I do things, the way I think, my job, do I move?, do I stay where I'm at?, I could go on and on. Do I change it all at once? How do I do that? It's overwhelming. And when I don't do something I've learned I should do, I feel condemned. Or, I'm always looking at the good things others do and I don't do those things or think to do those things. I don't know how to change that. Then, is it me in the flesh and I'm still without the Holy Spirit? (Again, back to that childlike faith. I wouldn't be in this mess if I didn't go learn all I'm supposed to be).

Has God saved you? I don't know. Do you exhibit the marks of God's indwelling Spirit?
I'm certain I'm not saved. And I think it's too late. Maybe I was "called" but not chosen. I've heard the outward call but not the inward call of the Gospel. Or I'm afraid I've blasphemed the Holy Spirit - I didn't take Jesus seriously for a long time and didn't think I needed Him. Not until I started seeing true believers and wanted what they had. Again too, I think I've learned too much. Like I've put the cart before the horse. I know so many things I ought to do, be, feel, think...but I'm in my flesh.

And I've tried but don't know how to surrender myself to God. Or I know so much about the Christian life that I'm afraid to surrender. Afraid to let go of control. Afraid of not knowing. Afraid of "giving" my life to God but not doing everything He says all the time. People say that as soon as they give their lives to God, they're changed (not necessarily drastically and completely but changed...different desires and such). I've never had new desires/changes. I'm expecting to have some changes/new desires and I don't. I think I try to fool myself and make myself think I have new desires.

I know the facts in my head but have trouble really believing in my heart.

What does "believing in my heart" mean, exactly? Do you think the faith you have as you begin to walk with God is as deep and full as it will ever be? Will your faith not expand as you journey with God? Scripture teaches that it does. So, then, why is a small faith at the start of your walk with God an issue? It's not.

I haven't always believed it - I've questioned and have been skeptical.

So have I. Questioning and healthy skepticism is good. It's part of being a thinking, rational person. Here are some websites that will help answer your questions and challenge your skepticism:

www.crossexamined.org
www.reasonablefaith.org
www.str.org

Maybe I'll never believe. I really want to believe - I want to go to heaven. I don't want to live in fear. I wish I wanted God for God.

And what is supposed to happen as you focus on your lack of faith? Will your faith be encouraged? Will it be helped to grow by your despairing over its weakness? No. Take what little faith you have, what little desire to believe you've got and allow God to build on it. Take whatever small steps toward God that you can. He is not asking you to be a spiritual giant overnight. Like a baby learning to walk, the immature believer needs a lot of support and assistance as s/he learns to stand and gains the strength to walk and run.[/QUOTE]

Do you do messages? Would you be able to message me? I could ask you a lot more questions, I think. Thank you.

 

[diana092086]

Like I said earlier, I just feel empty and void too.

This is exactly how you ought to feel without God on the throne of your heart where He should be. When He is not seated there, you are not whole.

I think I've mentioned this earlier as well, but I don't feel like me anymore. Like I don't have the same thoughts or feelings about things that I used to (or I do and I try to suppress them and make myself have the thoughts and feelings that I've learned I ought to have). I just feel really weird, and again, fake, phony, and not genuine. I've also done things I regret and am ashamed of, and there are things that come up in life that remind me of the things I've done. Rather than having proper thoughts or feelings about these other things, I think I have unrighteous thoughts/feelings because I'm guilty of certain things. I should be compassionate and think/want righteousness.

I'm not really impressed by much. I feel so hardened. I know how terrible I am - I've asked God to save me so many times.

Are you thinking that when you ask God to save you that somehow you ought to be instantly and forever transformed into an all-perfected saint? God saves sinners. He saves miserable, sin-cursed wretches caught up in all sorts of vile things. And when He does, He then sets about cleaning them up and deepening them in their walk with Him. This is a life-long process of transformation, however; it does not happen instantly. Every child of God comes to love God more and more over time; every child of God comes to trust Him more and more over time; every child of God comes to enjoy God more and more over time; and every child of God learns to die to themselves more and more over time.

I understand and know all that. I know I won't be instantly transformed. But I'm confused by all the things that need changing. I'm just so, so confused and overthink it all. There are so many things I've learned that I think I need to change everything about me. Everything. My personality, the way I do things, the way I think, my job, do I move?, do I stay where I'm at?, I could go on and on. Do I change it all at once? How do I do that? It's overwhelming. And when I don't do something I've learned I should do, I feel condemned. Or, I'm always looking at the good things others do and I don't do those things or think to do those things. I don't know how to change that. Then, is it me in the flesh and I'm still without the Holy Spirit? (Again, back to that childlike faith. I wouldn't be in this mess if I didn't go learn all I'm supposed to be).

Has God saved you? I don't know. Do you exhibit the marks of God's indwelling Spirit?
I'm certain I'm not saved. And I think it's too late. Maybe I was "called" but not chosen. I've heard the outward call but not the inward call of the Gospel. Or I'm afraid I've blasphemed the Holy Spirit - I didn't take Jesus seriously for a long time and didn't think I needed Him. Not until I started seeing true believers and wanted what they had. Again too, I think I've learned too much. Like I've put the cart before the horse. I know so many things I ought to do, be, feel, think...but I'm in my flesh.

And I've tried but don't know how to surrender myself to God. Or I know so much about the Christian life that I'm afraid to surrender. Afraid to let go of control. Afraid of not knowing. Afraid of "giving" my life to God but not doing everything He says all the time. People say that as soon as they give their lives to God, they're changed (not necessarily drastically and completely but changed...different desires and such). I've never had new desires/changes. I'm expecting to have some changes/new desires and I don't. I think I try to fool myself and make myself think I have new desires.

I know the facts in my head but have trouble really believing in my heart.

What does "believing in my heart" mean, exactly? Do you think the faith you have as you begin to walk with God is as deep and full as it will ever be? Will your faith not expand as you journey with God? Scripture teaches that it does. So, then, why is a small faith at the start of your walk with God an issue? It's not.

I haven't always believed it - I've questioned and have been skeptical.

So have I. Questioning and healthy skepticism is good. It's part of being a thinking, rational person. Here are some websites that will help answer your questions and challenge your skepticism:

www.crossexamined.org
www.reasonablefaith.org
www.str.org

Maybe I'll never believe. I really want to believe - I want to go to heaven. I don't want to live in fear. I wish I wanted God for God.

And what is supposed to happen as you focus on your lack of faith? Will your faith be encouraged? Will it be helped to grow by your despairing over its weakness? No. Take what little faith you have, what little desire to believe you've got and allow God to build on it. Take whatever small steps toward God that you can. He is not asking you to be a spiritual giant overnight. Like a baby learning to walk, the immature believer needs a lot of support and assistance as s/he learns to stand and gains the strength to walk and run.[/QUOTE]

Sorry for the multiple replies of the same thing earlier. I didn't think it went through so I kept posting. Do you do messages? Would you be able to message me? I could ask you a lot more questions, I think. Thank you.

 

[aiki]

I'm still afraid that I've learned too much to be genuine and sincere. Jesus says to come to Him with childlike faith - I've way complicated things and wanted to figure everything out before coming to Him.

A childlike faith is not a childish faith. People get this confused. A childish faith is a blind, unthinking, irrational faith. A childlike faith, however, is wholehearted, unreserved; when it is expressed, it is not with a series of caveats. This is the sort of faith God wants from us, that Jesus urged us to have. It is not a foolish, unthinking, childish faith, but a faith that, when exercised toward God is full and unhesitating.

You cannot figure everything out when it comes to God. He's too big, too beyond you, for you to be able to do so. And this is why faith is vital to walking with Him.

So, I think it's too late for me - as if I know all the things I'm supposed to think, say, do that it's not authentic.

Hey, you gotta' start somewhere. God will change you. That's His thing, taking insincere, confused, obsessive folk and making them stable, at peace, contented and true. So, no, it's not too late for you. It's only too late when you're dead.

I feel like I'm an impostor, an actress, a phony.

You wouldn't be the first impostor, the first phony, God has had to change. I think maybe you're making your sin too big and God too small. Not even a phony is beyond His transforming power.

I didn't see how evil that was and now I do. I think that's just who I am and I can't change myself.

Well, maybe you can't change yourself. But God can. And He always starts His changing process right where you are.

And I think that if I go to God now that it's not sincere. That I'm going to Him to change me because I want to go to heaven and not that I really feel bad I've offended Him. I'm still just concerned about me. I'm rotten through and through.

Sure you are. We all are. That's why we need a Saviour, why we need God to change us. He doesn't say to us, "Be the person I want you to be before you come to me for help." If we could be such a person on our own, we wouldn't have to come to Him for help, would we? No, God takes scummy wretches and makes them like Jesus. He does this, though, not the scummy wretches.

So, bring the truth of who you are to God. Bring your insincerity, your fear, your selfishness to God and ask Him to change you. He will. Not all at once, necessarily, but over time as you grow in Him. God changes sinners, not saints. Saints don't need changing, right?

Does He do that for everyone though - the drawing, convicting, illuminating truth, persuading to Christ? Because when I've read the Bible, I've just read it and it's been over my head. I always questioned its truth. So, I went outside the Bible to "verify."

The fact that you're looking toward God at all is a clear indicator that He's been working in you.

The Bible isn't for the superficial reader. It's deep. Very, very deep. Is it any surprise, then, that it went over your head? This is the experience of most people when they read the Bible. It takes the Holy Spirit's illuminating work to properly comprehend God's word. And He's not always in a rush to show a person all the truth the Bible has to offer.

Some people have said that some people will read the Bible, find it to be true, find God (His sheep? (My sheep hear my voice...?)) while others will read it, do not get it, and do not find God (the goats?)

The Bible says that all people "suppress the truth in unrighteousness." Everyone knows God exists; but many suppress that knowledge in order to serve themselves. So, the "goats" know God exists and know they must one day face Him but refuse to live in accord with this knowledge. The "sheep" do the opposite. It isn't, though, that only the sheep have a knowledge of God; it isn't that the goats don't know God exists. Both have "heard" the Shepherd's voice but only some (the "sheep") choose to heed it.

I know as facts that I'm a sinner, Christ died for sinners...but it hasn't been personal for me. It's just in my head to where it hasn't really affected me.

This is true of all sinners. It takes the conviction of God to bring a person to a full understanding of their sinfulness and need of a Saviour. So, rather than staring at what you can't do, why not begin to rely on God to do for you what you cannot do for yourself - like make you properly broken about your sin. It's His job to convict you, not yours.

Again, I fear it's too late for me because I know I should respond in gratitude and love but it wouldn't be genuine for me knowing that.

I don't follow you here. Knowing how you ought to behave guarantees that you will not behave that way sincerely? Again, you have squeezed God out of this equation, making it all about what you can or can't do. God is not limited by your self-imposed limits.

It's when I talk with others, learn from others about how they see and experience God, that I think it's possible to for me to see and experience God in that way too.

Sure you can. God holds out fellowship with Himself to all. "For God so loved the world." "God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

But then I go on my own again and only see and experience the judgment and wrath. It's like no matter what I do, I can't see His love for me. I don't get it. I feel like I'm immune to it, to the Gospel.

Here, again, you're making your negative view of yourself greater than God. Your perceived (not necessarily real) barriers to walking with God are not more powerful than God.

So, say I'm not saved, can I still do this? I just feel like I'd be insincere and only operating in my flesh and without the Holy Spirit.

Everybody begins the process toward walking with God with some measure of insincerity and fleshliness. This is why we all need God. We are insincere and fleshly. The only way we change is by appealing to God to change us. We all have "hearts of stone" that God must make "hearts of flesh," hearts that are soft toward Him and His truth.

I want heaven (or so I think) but I'm pretty sure I don't want God. I've learned also that God only hears (responds to) the prayer of repentance from sinners. Otherwise, the prayers of sinners are an abomination and He doesn't answer them or respond to them. He only answers prayers of believers and if it's according to His will. So, that's been another hindrance for me (learning too much that it's harming me...no wonder He said come to me with childlike faith) I think He won't hear me or that it's not His will to save me.

Well, I just quoted above parts of two verses that say that God desires the salvation of all. God doesn't answer the prayers of sinners - except for those prayers that plead with Him to do the saving work that only He can do. It is irrational to say that one must repent and believe and do so sincerely before one can ask God to cause one to repent and believe sincerely which only He can do and which must happen before one can repent and believe sincerely. This is a circle of logic, a catch-22, that is not reasonable nor biblical.

You're right - I do want myself more than God. With reference to above about the prayers, I fear He won't hear me though. That He knows I want myself more than Him.

Of course, He knows this. Paul the apostle described the condition of every person prior to being saved and it isn't a pleasant description. (see Ephesians 2:1-3) We were all of us God's enemies, blind and deaf to His truth, bound in selfishness and the grip of the devil before being saved. And yet, God moved to save us anyway. He doesn't need us to want Him in order to love us and provide for us a way of salvation. This is part of what makes Him so much better than us.

I have no more time at the moment to reply to you. I will try to finish my comments tomorrow.

Praying for you.

 

[diana092086]

A childlike faith is not a childish faith. People get this confused. A childish faith is a blind, unthinking, irrational faith. A childlike faith, however, is wholehearted, unreserved; when it is expressed, it is not with a series of caveats. This is the sort of faith God wants from us, that Jesus urged us to have. It is not a foolish, unthinking, childish faith, but a faith that, when exercised toward God is full and unhesitating.

You cannot figure everything out when it comes to God. He's too big, to beyond you, for you to be able to do so. And this is why faith is vital to walking with Him.

I understand what a childlike faith is and I think I've ruined any chance for me to have one. I don't have wholehearted, unreserved faith - I am like the one who has a series of caveats. I really think I'm lead by a spirit of fear and confusion and not the Holy Spirit. I am doubtful, hesitant, questioning, unsure of God and that's why I've gone so far in learning tons and tons about Him, the Christian life, and what I'm supposed to do. That's what I've been saying - I've learned so much about God, too much that I don't know if I have a lot of questions. I've doubted for so long that I didn't want to have doubts - I wanted to be sure of God and figure things out. I just think I've really spoiled myself. I've read that it's tragic for those who try to make faith but rather we should receive from God and allow Him to give us more faith. I didn't do that. I was impatient and not trusting Him. I went and learned all this stuff. Now I have all this knowledge and I'm miserable. (More knowledge, more sorrow)

Hey, you gotta' start somewhere. God will change you. That's His thing, taking insincere, confused, obsessive folk and making them stable, at peace, contented and true. So, no, it's not too late for you. It's only too late when you're dead.



You wouldn't be the first impostor, the first phony, God has had to change. I think maybe you're making your sin too big and God too small. Not even a phony is beyond His transforming power.



Well, maybe you can't change yourself. But God can. And He always starts His changing process right where you are.



Sure you are. We all are. That's why we need a Saviour, why we need God to change us. He doesn't say to us, "Be the person I want you to be before you come to me for help." If we could be such a person on our own, we wouldn't have to come to Him for help, would we? No, God takes scummy wretches and makes them like Jesus. He does this, though, not the scummy wretches.

So, bring the truth of who you are to God. Bring your insincerity, your fear, your selfishness to God and ask Him to change you. He will. Not all at once, necessarily, but over time as you grow in Him. God changes sinners, not saints. Saints don't need changing, right?

My hesitation, reservation, divided heart/mind? I've heard all this before and know it but still don't get it. Like it's not for me. I think I want heaven and think I want to be changed but then maybe don't want to go through the process of the changes.

The fact that you're looking toward God at all is a clear indicator that He's been working in you.

The Bible isn't for the superficial reader. It's deep. Very, very deep. Is it any surprise, then, that it went over your head? This is the experience of most people when they read the Bible. It takes the Holy Spirit's illuminating work to properly comprehend God's word. And He's not always in a rush to show a person all the truth the Bible has to offer.



The Bible says that all people "suppress the truth in unrighteousness." Everyone knows God exists; but many suppress that knowledge in order to serve themselves. So, the "goats" know God exists and know they must one day face Him but refuse to live in accord with this knowledge. The "sheep" do the opposite. It isn't, though, that only the sheep have a knowledge of God; it isn't that the goats don't know God exists. Both have "heard" the Shepherd's voice but only some (the "sheep") choose to heed it.



This is true of all sinners. It takes the conviction of God to bring a person to a full understanding of their sinfulness and need of a Saviour. So, rather than staring at what you can't do, why not begin to rely on God to do for you what you cannot do for yourself - like make you properly broken about your sin. It's His job to convict you, not yours.

Maybe this will take time? Maybe it'll take time for me to fully surrender and give my life over? I've been in this predicament a long time. I'm dragging my feet. So unsure. So hesitant. I've talked to so, so many people and tried to figure it out. Make myself surrender. I can't do it.

I don't follow you here. Knowing how you ought to behave guarantees that you will not behave that way sincerely? Again, you have squeezed God out of this equation, making it all about what you can or can't do. God is not limited by your self-imposed limits.



Sure you can. God holds out fellowship with Himself to all. "For God so loved the world." "God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."



Here, again, you're making your negative view of yourself greater than God. Your perceived (not necessarily real) barriers to walking with God are not more powerful than God.



Everybody begins the process toward walking with God with some measure of insincerity and fleshliness. This is why we all need God. We are insincere and fleshly. The only way we change is by appealing to God to change us. We all have "hearts of stone" that God must make "hearts of flesh," hearts that are soft toward Him and His truth.



Well, I just quoted above parts of two verses that say that God desires the salvation of all. God doesn't answer the prayers of sinners - except for those prayers that plead with Him to do the saving work that only He can do. It is irrational to say that one must repent and believe and do so sincerely before one can ask God to cause one to repent and believe sincerely which only He can do and which must happen before one can repent and believe sincerely. This is a circle of logic, a catch-22, that is not reasonable nor biblical.

So He'll hear my prayer of, "God, I'm scared of hell. I don't want You though. I don't know if I want to change. I'm so confused, hesitant, unsure, scared, selfish, proud, unbelieving...But will You help me? With everything? I don't even know what I want but help me."

Maybe it'll take time for this to be answered? Some people seem to be saved and changed right away. Do others have a problem like me and eventually come to God? I've been like this all my life and I'm getting worse.

Of course, He knows this. Paul the apostle described the condition of every person prior to being saved and it isn't a pleasant description. (see Ephesians 2:1-3) We were all of us God's enemies, blind and deaf to His truth, bound in selfishness and the grip of the devil before being saved. And yet, God moved to save us anyway. He doesn't need us to want Him in order to love us and provide for us a way of salvation. This is part of what makes Him so much better than us.

I have no more time at the moment to reply to you. I will try to finish my comments tomorrow.

Praying for you.

Thank you for your time and prayers.

 

[aiki]

So He'll hear my prayer of, "God, I'm scared of hell. I don't want You though. I don't know if I want to change. I'm so confused, hesitant, unsure, scared, selfish, proud, unbelieving...But will You help me? With everything? I don't even know what I want but help me."

Of course He'll answer such a prayer. Not likely in the way you expect, though.

God knows exactly where you're at, so there's no point in beating about the bush or trying to deceive Him. Call a spade a spade - be honest -and look to God, not yourself, for the wherewithal to be who He wants you to be.

Maybe it'll take time for this to be answered? Some people seem to be saved and changed right away. Do others have a problem like me and eventually come to God? I've been like this all my life and I'm getting worse.

You know what develops as you fix upon yourself? More of you. Looking at you, at your failures, and weaknesses and problems, simply causes them to grow in your thinking. As you look at you, your view will become so consumed with you that you will be unable see anything else. Race car drivers always look at where they want to go. They know that if they look at the things they want to avoid, at the things that might make them crash, they are certain to collide with them. So, too, you and I. We need to look at where we want to go, not at what is keeping us from going there. And so, as I said, you will help yourself immensely if you'll begin to fix your mind upon Christ. Every time you begin to focus upon you, use doing so as a trigger to look unto Jesus.

God is not in a terrible hurry. It takes many years to grow a mighty oak but only a couple of months to grow a squash. Which would you prefer to be? God takes His time, teaching us deeply and fully about Himself and our relationship to Him. He's making us "mighty oaks," not squashes.

Thank you for your time and prayers.

You're quite welcome.

 

[diana092086]

Of course He'll answer such a prayer. Not likely in the way you expect, though.

God knows exactly where you're at, so there's no point in beating about the bush or trying to deceive Him. Call a spade a spade - be honest -and look to God, not yourself, for the wherewithal to be who He wants you to be.



You know what develops as you fix upon yourself? More of you. Looking at you, at your failures, and weaknesses and problems, simply causes them to grow in your thinking. As you look at you, your view will become so consumed with you that you will be unable see nothing else. Race car drivers always look at where they want to go. They know that if they look at the things they want to avoid, at the things that might make them crash, they are certain to collide with them. So, too, you and I. We need to look at where we want to go, not at what is keeping us from going there. And so, as I said, you will help yourself immensely if you'll begin to fix your mind upon Christ. Every time you begin to focus upon you, use doing so as a trigger to look unto Jesus.

God is not in a terrible hurry. It takes many years to grow a mighty oak but only a couple of months to grow a squash. Which would you prefer to be? God takes Him time, teaching us deeply and fully about Himself and our relationship to Him. He's making us "mighty oaks," not squashes.



You're quite welcome.

Have you ever heard of such a person/case as me and ended up being saved? I feel so divided - I want to go to heaven but then at the same time, I'm so rebellious and resistant against God and His ways. And I'm so overwhelmed and confused by all the things I need to change. Example: with 9/11, back then and now, I am genuinely not compassionate. It's only because of the things I've learned that now I know I ought to be compassionate but it's not sincere. People who haven't heard of God or know hardly anything about Him have compassion and I don't. I can't pretend to have it either. And there are so, so many other things that I think I need to change that I really don't think are possible - it's just the way I was made.

I'm still convinced I don't belong to God - that I'm just trying to force something that's not meant to be. I was reading about people who have experienced the presence of God, the Holy Spirit. People talk about reading the Bible or praying or worshipping and they sense God is with them or they have a peace or they just know within a few minutes of reading, praying, worshipping. They have the Holy Spirit and they can go through difficulties and still have peace, love, joy...They know they're not made for this world. Some people have described the Holy Spirit as feeling like lightning or electricity (maybe when they're first born again?) I never and have never had any sense of God's presence. No connection to Him. No drawing or attraction to Him. I can pray, read, worship and get nothing. I can try to do these things and deceive myself or brainwash myself but really, I honestly feel like an empty, evil, dark, wannabe Christian, piece of useless garbage - that I'm meant for destruction and wrath. It's so easy to believe that - with my personality, desires, likes, dislikes, abilities, etc. I feel like I have virtually no resemblance to God. I feel like there's this big, thick wall between us and I can't get through.

I could look at Jesus when I look at me but I still think I'm in my flesh without the Holy Spirit. I think I'm deceiving or brainwashing myself. Or, since I'm not saved, it's hard to look to Jesus in my own strength. It's easy to fall apart and despair when you're on your own. It's easy to get side tracked, distracted, discouraged.

I also just feel like I'm here existing. I'm here physically. But I feel gone spiritually, emotionally, mentally. Like I have nothing to live for. I have no desires, dreams, passions, interests, goals, don't want to learn or grow. It's so sad. I could "make" myself have interests like I could "make" myself be compassionate...but it's just stuff I've learned about how I'm supposed to be and not genuine, authentic. See why I'm so hopeless and despairing??

I'm sure you've read all the other things I've written. I could write so much more. I just think I'm trying to be something I'm not and I'm getting tired of it, losing hope. I know all these facts in my head but have never had a real, personal encounter with Jesus. I've heard the Gospel tons and tons but still think I'm blind and deaf to it. God makes vessels of wrath and mercy. Why should i be one of mercy? He's God and can do what He wants and is just. Maybe I'm meant for destruction - - what can i do? I don't like that idea and want heaven but I'm despairing.

 

[Tone]

let Him grow it

Abba Yah, thank you for this land...You are our Increase and Your Seed does not return void, please Breathe Your Ruach ha Kodesh into this Body and raise us up in Yahshua ha Mashiach. Amen.

Hosea 10:12
"12Sow for yourselves righteousness and reap the fruit of loving devotion; break up your unplowed ground. For it is time to seek the LORD until He comes and sends righteousness upon you like rain."

I invite you to publicly confess the following:

Romans 10:10
"8But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved."

It's okay to need help to believe and to desire and to feel...ask Him for these things.

Shalom sister.

 

[aiki]

Have you ever heard of such a person/case as me and ended up being saved?

Here's how the Bible describes every person who is not saved:

Ephesians 2:1-3
1 And you has he made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in times past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the children of disobedience:
3 Among who also we all had our living in times past, in the lusts of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath...

Colossians 1:21-22
21 And you, whot were at one time alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now has he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

2 Corinthians 4:3-4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them who believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Every person God persuades to salvation is radically self-interested, bound under the power of the World, their own flesh, and the devil, alienated from God and at enmity with Him. So, yes, I have heard of people like you whom God has saved. These are the only sorts of people He saves, actually.

I want to go to heaven but then at the same time, I'm so rebellious and resistant against God and His ways.

Of course you are. This is how we all are in one way or another, to one degree or another, before we are saved. It's why we need to be saved.

And I'm so overwhelmed and confused by all the things I need to change.

But, you see, you don't make the changes; God does. As I told you before, you can only produce more of you. Only God can make you like Christ. He does this, though, after you are saved, not before.

I am genuinely not compassionate. It's only because of the things I've learned that now I know I ought to be compassionate but it's not sincere.

Hey, compassionate is as compassionate does. You don't have to feel compassion to act compassionately. Many times doing the right thing doesn't feel good. But the godly person does the right thing anyway.

And there are so, so many other things that I think I need to change that I really don't think are possible - it's just the way I was made.

Again, you are making yourself too big and God far too small. With God, all things are possible.

I'm still convinced I don't belong to God - that I'm just trying to force something that's not meant to be.

This is just an attempt to avoid responsibility for your choices. There is no "meant to be" regarding salvation. There are only those who choose God and those who choose to deny Him.

Matthew 10:32
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 16:25
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 11:26
26 And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?

And so on. "Whosoever" is a universal term; it's all-inclusive. Salvation is not for a select few but for the World - and you, if you'll receive it.

I never and have never had any sense of God's presence. No connection to Him. No drawing or attraction to Him. I can pray, read, worship and get nothing. I can try to do these things and deceive myself or brainwash myself but really, I honestly feel like an empty, evil, dark, wannabe Christian, piece of useless garbage - that I'm meant for destruction and wrath. It's so easy to believe that...

Especially when you keep repeating it to yourself. "The me I see is the me I'll be." You can't be like Christ while you're obsessed with yourself.

I feel like there's this big, thick wall between us and I can't get through.

No, you can't get through. But God can. This is the important thing about salvation: It really isn't about you. It's about the Saviour.

I could look at Jesus when I look at me but I still think I'm in my flesh without the Holy Spirit.

It's what the Bible commands. But, if you'd prefer to continue to look at yourself, well, there's nothing I can do about that. So far, doing so has led you no where good - just deeper into the darkness of your Self.

Or, since I'm not saved, it's hard to look to Jesus in my own strength.

Really? Harder than staring at your fear and despair? Harder than looking at your weakness, and insincerity, and hopelessness? Looking at beautiful, faithful, loving, merciful Jesus is harder than looking at these ugly, dark things? I find that hard to believe. It's like saying you find it harder to look at a majestic mountain vista than at the local garbage dump.

I also just feel like I'm here existing. I'm here physically. But I feel gone spiritually, emotionally, mentally. Like I have nothing to live for. I have no desires, dreams, passions, interests, goals, don't want to learn or grow. It's so sad. I could "make" myself have interests like I could "make" myself be compassionate...but it's just stuff I've learned about how I'm supposed to be and not genuine, authentic. See why I'm so hopeless and despairing??

Yes. You've let your feelings dictate what is and isn't real and true. You've made your feelings the basis upon which you act. My mother had a little poem she liked to quote to me that is pertinent here:

"Feelings come, and feelings go,
And feelings are deceiving.
My warrant is the word of God,
Nought else is worth believing."

I just think I'm trying to be something I'm not and I'm getting tired of it, losing hope.

I've been telling you that the answer isn't to try some more but to look to God to change you. You've seen that you can't change yourself. Isn't it time to let God have His way in your life and do for you what you can't do for yourself?

I know all these facts in my head but have never had a real, personal encounter with Jesus.

No, you probably haven't. There's too much you in the way. You must let go of yourself and trust in Christ. Actually, you will have to ask God to help you do this.

I've heard the Gospel tons and tons but still think I'm blind and deaf to it.

Well, the more you tell yourself this, the truer it becomes. Again, "The me I see is the me I'll be."

God makes vessels of wrath and mercy. Why should i be one of mercy?

You've quite misunderstood this verse - as Calvinists generally have.

www.soteriology101.com

He's God and can do what He wants and is just. Maybe I'm meant for destruction - - what can i do?

Pffft! Nonsense. You're telling yourself lies.

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[diana092086]

Here's how the Bible describes every person who is not saved:

Ephesians 2:1-3
1 And you has he made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in times past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the children of disobedience:
3 Among who also we all had our living in times past, in the lusts of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath...

Colossians 1:21-22
21 And you, whot were at one time alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now has he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

2 Corinthians 4:3-4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them who believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Every person God persuades to salvation is radically self-interested, bound under the power of the World, their own flesh, and the devil, alienated from God and at enmity with Him. So, yes, I have heard of people like you whom God has saved. These are the only sorts of people He saves, actually.

When I read those verses, I believe I'm one who's been blinded and can't believe - like the Gospel is hidden from me. I don't know if I've been persuaded to salvation. I think I'm caught in my sin and though I know changes need to be made, I'm so resistant to change. Watching the news, there are so many things I should care about but don't. And I don't long for righteousness and the things of God because I'm so rotten myself. I'm like those living in the dark that don't like the light because I don't want to be exposed. I don't know how that'll change.

Of course you are. This is how we all are in one way or another, to one degree or another, before we are saved. It's why we need to be saved.



But, you see, you don't make the changes; God does. As I told you before, you can only produce more of you. Only God can make you like Christ. He does this, though, after you are saved, not before.



Hey, compassionate is as compassionate does. You don't have to feel compassion to act compassionately. Many times doing the right thing doesn't feel good. But the godly person, does the right thing anyway.



Again, you are making yourself too big and God far too small. With God, all things are possible.



This is just an attempt to avoid responsibility for your choices. There is no "meant to be" regarding salvation. There are only those who choose God and those who choose to deny Him.

Matthew 10:32
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 16:25
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 11:26
26 And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?

And so on. "Whosoever" is a universal term; it's all-inclusive. Salvation is not for a select few but for the World - and you, if you'll receive it.




Especially when you keep repeating it to yourself. "The me I see is the me I'll be." You can't be like Christ while you're obsessed with yourself.



No, you can't get through. But God can. This is the important thing about salvation: It really isn't about you. It's about the Saviour.



It's what the Bible commands. But, if you'd prefer to continue to look at yourself, well, there's nothing I can do about that. So far, doing so has led you no where good - just deeper into the darkness of your Self.

Do I do this before or after being saved - looking at Jesus, instead of me? And how do I do that? What does that look like? Again, I'm afraid of brainwashing myself without actually being saved.

I'm sure when you read the Bible, you see the beauty and love of God and Jesus - you've got the Holy Spirit leading you into all truth. I don't have that same experience. I see God as the angry taskmaster - it's hard for me to see and believe the truth (like I don't have the Holy Spirit leading me into truth). And I'm still afraid I'll be operating under God as the angry taskmaster rather than the loving Father.

Really? Harder than staring at your fear and despair? Harder than looking at your weakness, and insincerity, and hopelessness? Looking at beautiful, faithful, loving, merciful Jesus is harder than looking at these ugly, dark things? I find that hard to believe. It's like saying you find it harder to look at a majestic mountain vista than at the local garbage dump.



Yes. You've let your feelings dictate what is and isn't real and true. You've made your feelings the basis upon which you act. My mother had a little poem she liked to quote to me that is pertinent here:

"Feelings come, and feelings go,
And feelings are deceiving.
My warrant is the word of God,
Nought else is worth believing."



I've been telling you that the answer isn't to try some more but to look to God to change you. You've seen that you can't change yourself. Isn't it time to let God have His way in your life and do for you what you can't do for yourself?

I think part of me wants that but part of me doesn't. I'm divided - fighting myself. I've tried letting go/surrendering but nothing has happened. I know so much that I'm expecting a change right away (not a complete transformation but new desires) but then I already know what those desires ought to be so I think it's me and that I'm not actually saved. So then I'm so confused - like what I read is confirmed, "How tragic for those who try to make faith"

Also, with expecting a change right away, I get discouraged. So maybe I have to keep asking Him to help me believe/surrender? Maybe it'll take time?

I just feel so defeated and discouraged after all I've learned and tried and done. It's so easy to lose sight of God and get caught up in the garbage and sink down more. I could go on and on.

No, you probably haven't. There's too much you in the way. You must let go of yourself and trust in Christ. Actually, you will have to ask God to help you do this.

Okay, so ask Him to help me surrender? Give me new desires? Etc? He'll hear and answer? I know you've answered above you know plenty of people like me who have been saved...I know we're all sinners. But have you heard of someone struggling to believe even after learning tons and tons about God, knowing all about the Christian life, struggling to surrender? Struggling with Calvinism? Someone who was saved without relation to Calvinism? (if that makes sense)

Well, the more you tell yourself this, the truer it becomes. Again, "The me I see is the me I'll be."



You've quite misunderstood this verse - as Calvinists generally have.

www.soteriology101.com



Pffft! Nonsense. You're telling yourself lies.

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[aiki]

@diana092086

You wrote:

When I read those verses, I believe I'm one who's been blinded and can't believe - like the Gospel is hidden from me.

I quoted a verse to you in my last post from the apostle Paul where he describes all who are unsaved. And he says of the unsaved that they are all of them bound under the power of the World, the Flesh, and the devil, deafened and blinded to the saving truth of the Gospel, enemies toward God and alienated from Him by wicked living. For this reason, every single person who is saved is so by God's grace, by His saving work, not by dint of their own effort, or capacities. This includes you. You cannot save yourself. You are too weak, too blinded and deafened to God and His truth, too full of yourself to be able to change who you are and come into fellowship with God. God must save you. And He will as you trust in His Son and depend upon him to transform your heart and mind.

You wrote:

I don't know if I've been persuaded to salvation. I think I'm caught in my sin and though I know changes need to be made, I'm so resistant to change.

Of course you're caught in your sin. Every person is whom God works to save. That's why we need Him to save us. You need His power, His work, in order to change, first in the realm of what you desire and then in how you live. If you could change yourself, if you could make it to God on your own, Jesus needn't have died on the cross for you.

You wrote:

And I don't long for righteousness and the things of God because I'm so rotten myself. I'm like those living in the dark that don't like the light because I don't want to be exposed. I don't know how that'll change.

With God, all things are possible. Your rottenness is not greater than God's power to change you.

God is not asking you to change yourself. Instead, He wants you to trust and depend upon Him to make you a "new creature in Christ."

Many times, God must let people live the lives they want to live, and experience the pain and death that is inherent in such living, before they are willing to turn from themselves and their sin to Him. But there is no guarantee that a person will survive this process and come to a saving faith in Christ before it's too late. How long will you hold onto your Self, to your sin, before it is too bitter, too destructive, to do so any longer? Will you continue to tell yourself that you're beyond help and find yourself having fulfilled your own prophecy about yourself, separated from God forever? You will choose today (and every day) whom you will serve: You or God.

OCD often involves obsessing over the thing one most fears, dreading becoming the very thing one wants desperately to avoid. It's a weird catch-22 that the devil loves to use to keep people from moving forward with God. The answer for me and my OCD and anxiety was to begin to trust God and to use His word rather than my fears as the anchor for my thinking. Every time I began to obsess, to be anxious, I quoted God's truth to myself, interrupting my OCD thinking and redirecting my mind to what God had to say to me. Over time, this practice dissolved completely my OCD and anxiety.

You wrote:

Do I do this before or after being saved - looking at Jesus, instead of me?

Would you ride a bicycle, never looking at where you wanted to go? Would you walk down the street never focusing on the direction in which you wanted to travel? Doing so is a sure-fire way never to get to where it is you want to go (and to run into things, to boot). As my Dad has often said, "If you aim at nothing, you're bound to hit it." If it is toward Jesus that you want to move, it is toward him you must look.

You wrote:

And how do I do that? What does that look like? Again, I'm afraid of brainwashing myself without actually being saved.

Are you not "brainwashing" yourself with all of the things you've been telling yourself about your inability to trust in Christ and to move toward God, about your sinfulness and lack of feeling about spiritual things? It seems so to me. Why is it okay to tell yourself this negative narrative about yourself - and thereby become conformed to it - but not do the same with Christ and the Gospel?

What does "looking unto Jesus" look like? It looks exactly like what you've been doing with the story you've been telling yourself about yourself, just with Jesus in the place of yourself. Focus on him. Orient your thoughts each day on his love for you, on his holy character, on his teachings. Think often on what he did for you on the cross of Calvary. Tell yourself at every turn the story of God's love for you demonstrated in the Person of Jesus Christ.

You wrote:

I see God as the angry taskmaster - it's hard for me to see and believe the truth (like I don't have the Holy Spirit leading me into truth). And I'm still afraid I'll be operating under God as the angry taskmaster rather than the loving Father.

Why? Why do you see God this way? Does an angry taskmaster humiliate Himself by becoming one of His own creatures, laying aside His heavenly glory to do so, and then suffering the rejection and persecution of those creatures He has made, eventually to die at their hands to save them from the consequences of their own wickedness? How does this work with your notion of God as an angry taskmaster, exactly? God has bent over backward to protect us from ourselves, to save us from the terrible eternal consequences of our sin. How is this the conduct of an angry taskmaster? He didn't have to save us. He was under no obligation to keep us from the deserved consequences of our sin. And yet, He loved us so deeply, so profoundly, that He endured shame, and horror, and death to do so. This doesn't sound like an angry taskmaster to me...

You wrote:

I think part of me wants that but part of me doesn't. I'm divided - fighting myself.

You cannot defeat yourself. But God can. Lay your struggle before Him and ask Him to do in you what you can't do in yourself. Ask Him to break your pride, dissolve your fear, and give you a deep desire for Himself. And keep asking 'til He does. That any part of you wants God is proof of His work in you. Don't stifle it! Respond to it in whatever measure you can, praying to God to move you further still in His direction.

James 4:8-10
8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.

You wrote:

Also, with expecting a change right away, I get discouraged. So maybe I have to keep asking Him to help me believe/surrender? Maybe it'll take time?

Does a mighty oak tree grow tall and strong, roots deep in the ground, branches spreading wide, over night? God's work in you is a long-term business. He's not in a terrible hurry. He wants to make you deep and strong in Himself and this always takes time.

You wrote:

I just feel so defeated and discouraged after all I've learned and tried and done. It's so easy to lose sight of God and get caught up in the garbage and sink down more.

A wise man once said, "To be disappointed in yourself is to have trusted in yourself." God urges us not to trust in ourselves but in Himself. Do you remember the story of the apostle Peter who stepped out onto the waves to walk to Jesus? What happened when he took his eyes off of Jesus? The same happens to us when we get occupied with our failure and weakness. Paul the apostle and John had good advice, I think, in regards to what to do with our failures:

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Philippians 3:112-14
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has laid hold of me.
13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,
14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[Chris0699]

Diana, I'm Chris, and pretty much everything you wrote about your state of mind describes mine. How we got here is different, but you are 100% where I am. I can't offer encouragement or anything, but you're not alone. And I as well appreciate any prayers and I also appreciate aiki's advice. I will take that into consideration. I also apply extra pressure to myself because I have a wife and three children who are depending on me to be a spiritual leader. But even that is getting me nowhere. I will continue to pray and we'll see what happens.

 

[diana092086]

Diana, I'm Chris, and pretty much everything you wrote about your state of mind describes mine. How we got here is different, but you are 100% where I am. I can't offer encouragement or anything, but you're not alone. And I as well appreciate any prayers and I also appreciate aiki's advice. I will take that into consideration. I also apply extra pressure to myself because I have a wife and three children who are depending on me to be a spiritual leader. But even that is getting me nowhere. I will continue to pray and we'll see what happens.

Thank you, Chris. I'm learning you and i aren't the only ones. It's awful to know all this truth, all these facts in your head but be unable to believe it in your heart. You would think we could believe knowing all this but no. I can't make myself believe, i can't fake it. I'm not sure what to do anymore. It's really sad. I don't know if walking away is best and if God saves me, He'll save me. I don't know. So many people talk about having this awareness or knowing or connection to God. I've never had that. I wish i was connected to Him. I have just a little bit of hope left. It's also frustrating that not a lot of people understand. They give a lot of love, support, encouragement, advice but it's hard for me to believe that too.. It's so sad.

I'm so sorry you're in this situation. Hoping you find God and that peace. Hope others can give you the love and guidance you need. I'm sorry I'm not better help right now. Maybe someday. I'm here though to talk to if you need someone to relate to.

 

[diana092086]

Diana, I'm Chris, and pretty much everything you wrote about your state of mind describes mine. How we got here is different, but you are 100% where I am. I can't offer encouragement or anything, but you're not alone. And I as well appreciate any prayers and I also appreciate aiki's advice. I will take that into consideration. I also apply extra pressure to myself because I have a wife and three children who are depending on me to be a spiritual leader. But even that is getting me nowhere. I will continue to pray and we'll see what happens.[/QUOTE

Did i mention i have another post on this forum? It's newer. Someone posted on there...https://www.christianforums.com/members/ldonjohn.339395/

I think he's been in a similar situation and found God. Maybe try talking to him?

 

[Chris0699]

Thank you, Chris. I'm learning you and i aren't the only ones. It's awful to know all this truth, all these facts in your head but be unable to believe it in your heart. You would think we could believe knowing all this but no. I can't make myself believe, i can't fake it. I'm not sure what to do anymore. It's really sad. I don't know if walking away is best and if God saves me, He'll save me. I don't know. So many people talk about having this awareness or knowing or connection to God. I've never had that. I wish i was connected to Him. I have just a little bit of hope left. It's also frustrating that not a lot of people understand. They give a lot of love, support, encouragement, advice but it's hard for me to believe that too.. It's so sad.

I'm so sorry you're in this situation. Hoping you find God and that peace. Hope others can give you the love and guidance you need. I'm sorry I'm not better help right now. Maybe someday. I'm here though to talk to if you need someone to relate to.

Well, no one forced me to do what I did. I was ignorant of what it was to follow Jesus, and my "conversion" was nothing more than a temporary fit of emotion. I've never been changed, and even though it's my fault, I still want to try to blame God. The Bible says that I am responsible for what I did and the sooner I can get a hold of that the better. To truly admit that I am a sinner and submit to Him. I am struggling to get to that place and I can't seem to understand how even though something is my responsibility, that I cannot do it without God's involvement.