I changed my stance on gun control!!!

[Estrid]

From the last (2016) Australian census

The ten most commonly reported countries of birth for those born overseas were:

1. England (14.7%)
2. New Zealand (8.4%)
3. China (8.3%)
4. India (7.4%)
5. Philippines (3.8%)
6. Vietnam (3.6%)
7. Italy (2.8%)
8. South Africa (2.6%)
9. Malaysia (2.2%)
10. Scotland (1.9%)

While the most common birthplace for those born overseas remains England (15% of the overseas-born population), there has been an increase between the 2011 and 2016 Censuses in the proportion of people born in China (6.0% to 8.3%) and India (5.6% to 7.4%). The proportion of those born in New Zealand has decreased over the same period, dropping from 9.1% to 8.4% of the overseas-born population.
2071.0 - Census of Population and Housing: Reflecting Australia - Stories from the Census, 2016 (abs.gov.au)
​

Chinese settlement in Australia goes back to the Gold Rush.

(2015) While the United States of America had the highest total number of people born overseas (47 million or 14% of their population),2 Australia had a higher proportion of overseas-born people, at 26%. Australia also had a higher proportion of people born overseas than our neighbour New Zealand (23%) and Canada (22%),3 other countries founded on migration.​

OB

I wonder what area i will like. I like the tropics.

 

[Occams Barber]

I wonder what area i will like. I like the tropics.

Probably coastal Queensland (see Florida and Southern Brazil comparisons) if you're OK with humidity.

This map gives you a comparative picture of Australian climate zones. Note that the Sonora, Sahara, most of South Africa and India comparisons are all virtually unpopulated due mainly to a lack of reliable surface water. The far north is monsoonal with wet and dry seasons.

Most Australians live in the more temperate SE corner and East coast. As you go north along the east coast the population thins out. Most people live within 100 km of the coast.

Climate map shows which countries have the same weather as Australia | Daily Mail Online
OB

 

[Bradskii]

From the last (2016) Australian census

The ten most commonly reported countries of birth for those born overseas were:

1. England (14.7%)
2. New Zealand (8.4%)
3. China (8.3%)
4. India (7.4%)
5. Philippines (3.8%)
6. Vietnam (3.6%)
7. Italy (2.8%)
8. South Africa (2.6%)
9. Malaysia (2.2%)
10. Scotland (1.9%)

While the most common birthplace for those born overseas remains England (15% of the overseas-born population), there has been an increase between the 2011 and 2016 Censuses in the proportion of people born in China (6.0% to 8.3%) and India (5.6% to 7.4%). The proportion of those born in New Zealand has decreased over the same period, dropping from 9.1% to 8.4% of the overseas-born population.
2071.0 - Census of Population and Housing: Reflecting Australia - Stories from the Census, 2016 (abs.gov.au)
​

Chinese settlement in Australia goes back to the Gold Rush.

(2015) While the United States of America had the highest total number of people born overseas (47 million or 14% of their population),2 Australia had a higher proportion of overseas-born people, at 26%. Australia also had a higher proportion of people born overseas than our neighbour New Zealand (23%) and Canada (22%),3 other countries founded on migration.​

OB

The Welsh come in at a rather miserable 0.1%. Which actually surprised me seeing the number of Welsh town names in Australia, especially in mining areas. There's a Swansea (my home town) just an hour north of Sydney. And good grief, the whole state is named after my hometown region - (New) South Wales.

But then, most of us are a home loving crowd. Not like the Irish or the Scots.

 

[Bradskii]

When the need for self defense arises, it's a valid reason to have whatever you need.

It's an automatic reaction that only some Americans seem to have. So let me give you a heads up on how others react.

Cricklewood is a suburb in North London. It's adjacent to Hampstead which you might have heard of. Very expensive area. But my wife and I lived in Cricklewood, which was not the best of areas. But I'd bought an apartment there before we were married, so the first three years we spent there.

It had an extremely strong Irish contingent. And we're talking mid 70's when the IRA was regularly blowing people up, including people in London. You couldn't go into a local pub without someone passing around a tin collecting for the IRA (no thanks, I gave at the office). You kept your political views to yourself unless you wanted to lose some teeth. Or worse.

There was a nightclub literally around the corner on the main drag. A guy was denied access by security one night. So he went home, got a knife, went back and stabbed the security guy in the neck and killed him.

There was a corner shop a couple of blocks away. A year after the stabbing, some punk tried to roll the place one night and instead of losing a few quid, the old Chinese guy went balistic and chased the guy out of the shop. The young kid panicked, turned back and shot him in the chest. Killed him.

The last year we lived there, a guy called Dennis Nilsen started inviting gay guys back to his apartment, a half a mile from mine, killing them and cutting them up. He is thought to have done this at least a dozen times before being caught.

Now I could well imagine you relating a similar story and using that to justify being armed to the teeth. The area sounds like downtown Caracas. But that thought literally never entered my head. Not that I had any real knowledge of how I'd do it anyway. Security guys are at risk of violence as part of their job. It didn't affect me. And being armed isn't much help if a guy has just stuck a knife in your ear. Individual armed robberies were unheard of in London. It was an exceptional event and a dumb act by the albeit brave but foolish shopkeeper. And Nilsen? He lived in the same street as my daughter's kindy but my family and I were in zero danger from him.

And the IRA? Well, being armed doesn't really help if a bomb goes off in a pub as it did in Guildford, killing 5 and Birmingham, killing 21. The IRA group responsible lived about 3 miles south of Cricklewood.

But in America? You'd probably have a small arsenal trying to protect yourself.

 

[Aldebaran]

Absolutely - and Australians are completely on board with making people jump through hoops to justify gun ownership

It's strange but we've found that if you make guns hard to get you automatically reduce gun crime (and accidental gun injuries). We call it "prevention".

That doesn't answer my question about why 90% of people there believe even stricter laws are still needed.

It's a straightforward risk assessment where allowing free access to guns creates far more dangers than restricting access. It's another one of those situations where we tend to favour collective responsibility over individual wants.

A bit like Covid vaccination.

OB

A bit of communism as well. The longer they're willing to forget history, the more they'll remember how the good old days used to be a decade from now.

 

[Aldebaran]

It's an automatic reaction that only some Americans seem to have. So let me give you a heads up on how others react.

Cricklewood is a suburb in North London. It's adjacent to Hampstead which you might have heard of. Very expensive area. But my wife and I lived in Cricklewood, which was not the best of areas. But I'd bought an apartment there before we were married, so the first three years we spent there.

It had an extremely strong Irish contingent. And we're talking mid 70's when the IRA was regularly blowing people up, including people in London. You couldn't go into a local pub without someone passing around a tin collecting for the IRA (no thanks, I gave at the office). You kept your political views to yourself unless you wanted to lose some teeth. Or worse.

There was a nightclub literally around the corner on the main drag. A guy was denied access by security one night. So he went home, got a knife, went back and stabbed the security guy in the neck and killed him.

There was a corner shop a couple of blocks away. A year after the stabbing, some punk tried to roll the place one night and instead of losing a few quid, the old Chinese guy went balistic and chased the guy out of the shop. The young kid panicked, turned back and shot him in the chest. Killed him.

The last year we lived there, a guy called Dennis Nilsen started inviting gay guys back to his apartment, a half a mile from mine, killing them and cutting them up. He is thought to have done this at least a dozen times before being caught.

Now I could well imagine you relating a similar story and using that to justify being armed to the teeth. The area sounds like downtown Caracas. But that thought literally never entered my head. Not that I had any real knowledge of how I'd do it anyway. Security guys are at risk of violence as part of their job. It didn't affect me. And being armed isn't much help if a guy has just stuck a knife in your ear. Individual armed robberies were unheard of in London. It was an exceptional event and a dumb act by the albeit brave but foolish shopkeeper. And Nilsen? He lived in the same street as my daughter's kindy but my family and I were in zero danger from him.

And the IRA? Well, being armed doesn't really help if a bomb goes off in a pub as it did in Guildford, killing 5 and Birmingham, killing 21. The IRA group responsible lived about 3 miles south of Cricklewood.

But in America? You'd probably have a small arsenal trying to protect yourself.

You name incidents where people who were attacked may or may not have seen the attack coming. If not, then they wouldn't have the chance to defend themselves. But you leave out the possibly that any of them could have seen the attack coming. The ones who do, and are able to defend themselves, are the ones who live to tell about it. The defenseless ones don't.

 

[Estrid]

Probably coastal Queensland (see Florida and Southern Brazil comparisons) if you're OK with humidity.

This map gives you a comparative picture of Australian climate zones. Note that the Sonora, Sahara, most of South Africa and India comparisons are all virtually unpopulated due mainly to a lack of reliable surface water. The far north is monsoonal with wet and dry seasons.

Most Australians live in the more temperate SE corner and East coast. As you go north along the east coast the population thins out. Most people live within 100 km of the coast.

View attachment 309867

Climate map shows which countries have the same weather as Australia | Daily Mail Online
OB

Cool map!

There is a lot to consider besides climate of course.

Hot- humid r us, here in Hong Kong though. Its what I like.

 

[Estrid]

You name incidents where people who were attacked may or may not have seen the attack coming. If not, then they wouldn't have the chance to defend themselves. But you leave out the possibly that any of them could have seen the attack coming. The ones who do, and are able to defend themselves, are the ones who live to tell about it. The defenseless ones don't.

I saw the attack coming and there was zero I could
do about it.

 

[sjastro]

Probably coastal Queensland (see Florida and Southern Brazil comparisons) if you're OK with humidity.

This map gives you a comparative picture of Australian climate zones. Note that the Sonora, Sahara, most of South Africa and India comparisons are all virtually unpopulated due mainly to a lack of reliable surface water. The far north is monsoonal with wet and dry seasons.

Most Australians live in the more temperate SE corner and East coast. As you go north along the east coast the population thins out. Most people live within 100 km of the coast.

View attachment 309867

Climate map shows which countries have the same weather as Australia | Daily Mail Online
OB

As usual there is something missing from the map of Australia.

 

[Bradskii]

You name incidents where people who were attacked may or may not have seen the attack coming. If not, then they wouldn't have the chance to defend themselves. But you leave out the possibly that any of them could have seen the attack coming. The ones who do, and are able to defend themselves, are the ones who live to tell about it. The defenseless ones don't.

It was a heads up about what violence can actually entail. I named three incredibly violent scenarios that were centered within a minutes walk of where I lived and two that were organised a couple of miles from where I lived that all ended in death. None of which would have been prevented by being armed. So a simple 'violence is increasing' argument, which we just had upstream and was shown to be completely and utterly incorrect, isn't worth a hill of beans even if it IS correct.

As I keep saying, it's a mindset. Almost an excuse to get a gun. The reasons given are almost always fallacious and do nothing but weaken any genuine reason for gun ownership. There are too many of you crying wolf and none of you, at least on this forum, can even bring themselves to discuss obvious problems and honest attempts to solve them. It's exactly like the mindset that those who want abortioned banned and will flat out refuse to discuss any proposals to lessen the problem.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

A look at who is committing these crimes would tell
you what kind of problem you have.

Ive heard thats a no- no.

You got that right.

 

[Aldebaran]

I saw the attack coming and there was zero I could
do about it.

Since I wasn't there, I can't say what you may have been able to do. But there are times when a woman notices someone following her, such as when she's out jogging and she sees a car passing slowly by, then drives ahead and turns around and then parks in her path as if waiting for her. She could decide to change direction, or be ready to use a weapon of some kind if she has it (gun, knife, pepper spray, etc). Every situation is different, and that's what often determines what options she might have. But simply being aware of one's surroundings is the very first thing a self defense trainer will say to do.

 

[Aldebaran]

It was a heads up about what violence can actually entail. I named three incredibly violent scenarios that were centered within a minutes walk of where I lived and two that were organised a couple of miles from where I lived that all ended in death. None of which would have been prevented by being armed. So a simple 'violence is increasing' argument, which we just had upstream and was shown to be completely and utterly incorrect, isn't worth a hill of beans even if it IS correct.

As I keep saying, it's a mindset. Almost an excuse to get a gun. The reasons given are almost always fallacious and do nothing but weaken any genuine reason for gun ownership. There are too many of you crying wolf and none of you, at least on this forum, can even bring themselves to discuss obvious problems and honest attempts to solve them. It's exactly like the mindset that those who want abortioned banned and will flat out refuse to discuss any proposals to lessen the problem.

If you want to assume that the attacker will always have all the power, then go ahead. I won't stop you. In fact, I can see that there's no way I possibly can. But it's estimated that people in America stop an attack around 2 million times per year. I'm sure you'll want to debate that, but that's fine. Even in America, there are those who just assume, "If someone wants to attack me, there's nothing I can do about it, so I won't even try". Criminals love those people. But thankfully, there are plenty that refuse to think that way.

 

[Occams Barber]

The Welsh come in at a rather miserable 0.1%. Which actually surprised me seeing the number of Welsh town names in Australia, especially in mining areas. There's a Swansea (my home town) just an hour north of Sydney. And good grief, the whole state is named after my hometown region - (New) South Wales.

But then, most of us are a home loving crowd. Not like the Irish or the Scots.

I was brung up in Victoria's Latrobe Valley best known for brown coal mining, dirty, polluting power stations, a stinking paper mill and a majority migrant population. Exactly the place I would have thought Welsh Gnomes would feel right at home.

We had English, irish, Scots and all varieties of Europeans - but no Welsh that I could recall (the Welsh are easily recognised by their poor grasp of basic English grammar)

I realised a few years back that the problem was the difference between open cut and underground coal mining. Put a Welshman in an open cut coalmine and he's likely to be blinded by the sun and fall off the edge.

OB

 

[OldWiseGuy]

If by 'failed to deal with criminality' you mean that the administrations of Bush, Clinton, Bush jnr, Obama and Trump have overseen a significant drop in violent crime and property crime then you'd be right (although I don't follow your logic). From: What the data says (and doesn’t say) about crime in the United States

View attachment 309857

And you might note that gun ownership has fluctuated between a low of 37% of households and the present 42% - the rise coinciding with covid. Gun ownership in the U.S. 1972-2021 | Statista

So your argument doesn't just fail. It becomes incoherent. And I mentioned this earlier, if your arguments prove to be obviously wrong, it damages your whole position. Maybe you need better arguments.

Don't lull yourself into complacency regarding crime just because crime has diminished. It is still a very serious problem, one that isn't being addressed effectively in America. Our leaders use the catchphrase that "one death is too many" yet blithely accept tens of thousands of deaths that result from criminal activity. That's one reason for failing confidence in government.

 

[Estrid]

Since I wasn't there, I can't say what you may have been able to do. But there are times when a woman notices someone following her, such as when she's out jogging and she sees a car passing slowly by, then drives ahead and turns around and then parks in her path as if waiting for her. She could decide to change direction, or be ready to use a weapon of some kind if she has it (gun, knife, pepper spray, etc). Every situation is different, and that's what often determines what options she might have. But simply being aware of one's surroundings is the very first thing a self defense trainer will say to do.

Believe me, Ms Xu does situational awareness
to the hyperalert ptsd max, though Im not so sort
of insane about it now- but yeah.

Of course, Ive gone over and over and over it- incl
nightmare versions-to see where I made my mistake.

 

[Occams Barber]

As usual there is something missing from the map of Australia

​

You're right. I am mortified and sorely ashamed - I abase myself - I am the toe-jam of a camel.

In spite of the lack of our most important state i couldn't resist the comparisons between the Sahara Desert etc. for mainland Aus.

OB

 

[OldWiseGuy]

It was a heads up about what violence can actually entail. I named three incredibly violent scenarios that were centered within a minutes walk of where I lived and two that were organised a couple of miles from where I lived that all ended in death. None of which would have been prevented by being armed. So a simple 'violence is increasing' argument, which we just had upstream and was shown to be completely and utterly incorrect, isn't worth a hill of beans even if it IS correct.

As I keep saying, it's a mindset. Almost an excuse to get a gun. The reasons given are almost always fallacious and do nothing but weaken any genuine reason for gun ownership. There are too many of you crying wolf and none of you, at least on this forum, can even bring themselves to discuss obvious problems and honest attempts to solve them. It's exactly like the mindset that those who want abortioned banned and will flat out refuse to discuss any proposals to lessen the problem.

Incidents like you described also happen here, and they are no threat to the community in general. What is a threat is indiscriminate crimes such as carjacking, home invasion, mugging, indiscriminate assault, drive-by shooting, armed robbery that endangers bystanders, etc. Lots of reasons to be "packing".

I carry concealed but only when I go to certain places, or when I'm travelling.

 

[Occams Barber]

That doesn't answer my question about why 90% of people there believe even stricter laws are still needed.

90% agree with the laws. 45% (a half of 90%) would like even tougher laws.

Again its simple risk management. While gun related violence and accidents are rare they still exist. Reduce the number of guns and you reduce the likelihood of gun related violence or accidents. Apart frommultiple US examples we've had the mass shooting at a New Zealand mosque by an Australian. That's too close to home to ignore.

A bit of communism as well. The longer they're willing to forget history, the more they'll remember how the good old days used to be a decade from now.

As far as I know, the US is the only country with an institutionalised right to gun ownership. As a result Americans tend to look at other country's gun laws through the lens of their own gun rights. Out here having a right to own a gun makes as much sense than having a right to own a tiger. Neither is considered to be a necessity and both are dangerous.

OB

 

[HARK!]

MOD HAT ON

This forum is intended to be informational and not for debate.

MOD HAT OFF​