HOW CAN WE SAY YOU ARE SAVED ?

[Jesus is YHWH]

How do I (as a hypothetical new believer) know if the Holy Spirit is in me?
How do I (as any believer) know if the Holy Spirit is in somebody else?

Your life is forever changed and you are now a new creation in Christ. Just as there is a definite time and place for one’s physical birth so too is there a time and place for one’s spiritual birth .

 

[DingDing]

In my experience in many different assemblies , their explanation of salvation is different .

So can we know if our salvation is REAL ?

...


What say you ?


dan p

Hello Dan,

I did not read through your list, but we can talk if you want. Anyone can say they are saved, and many do who are not (or will fall away) Let's start simple. In your mind (your reading of scripture) which verse perhaps best captures the distinction between the righteous and the wicked?

 

[Buzzard3]

God’s word seems clear enough that a person can KNOW (with absolute certainty) whether or not they have done it or not and whether they are saved or not.

Really? In that case, why is salvation described as a "hope" in at least twenty NT verses? Hope does not mean certainty (must less, "absolute certainty") ... although our hope can be one of confidence.


Even Paul was not certain that he would be saved, until just before his death - and even then, probably only by special revelation:

"3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God." (1Cor 4)

 

[atpollard]

Really? In that case, why is salvation described as a "hope" in at least twenty NT verses? Hope does not mean certainty (must less, "absolute certainty") ... although our hope can be one of confidence.


Even Paul was not certain that he would be saved, until just before his death - and even then, probably only by special revelation:

"3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God." (1Cor 4)

Sorry, but I do not need to ponder mysteries from sentences starting with "But ..." [indicating they have been SNATCHED from a larger context to make a specific point they may, or may not, have been speaking to in context.] I have enough "stupid simple" verses that I need only choose to believe or not believe.

Here is a Paragraph:

John 3:16-21 [NASB]​

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 "And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed. 21 "But the one who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds will be revealed as having been performed in God."​

Looking at John 3:18, the words seem simple enough. "The one who believes in Him is not judged" ... can it be any simpler? Can it possibly mean anything OTHER THAN exactly what it says? If you believe, what about you and "judgement"? Go ahead, you can say it.

The second half seems just as clear and unambiguous: "the one who does not believe has been judged already". Can THAT mean anything other than what it says? If you do not believe, then what about you and "judgement"? Go ahead, you can say it.

Of course, that is only ONE WITNESS, and scripture states that every fact will be established by two or three witnesses. So here is a SECOND WITNESS:

Here is a Paragraph:

Romans 10:5-13 [NASB] 5 For Moses writes of the righteousness that is based on the Law, that the person who performs them will live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL GO UP INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."​

What then is this "word of faith" that Paul was preaching?
"If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" ... was any part of that unclear?

• IF YOU (you should know whether you did or did not)
• "confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord" ... there is only one possible interpretation of that - it means exactly what it says.
• "you will be saved" ... there is no "IF" followed by more conditions, there is no "MIGHT" that hedges the bet. As the saying goes, there is no "Yada yada". There is only CERTAINTY ... "WILL BE" saved.
• In case you missed it the first time, Paul repeats it in verse 13: "EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

The only choice for us is two fold:

1. Did we do what it says? (believe, confess)
2. Do we believe what Scripture says is true? ("no judgement", "will be saved")

 

[Buzzard3]

Sorry, but I do not need to ponder mysteries from sentences starting with "But ..." [indicating they have been SNATCHED from a larger context to make a specific point they may, or may not, have been speaking to in context.] I have enough "stupid simple" verses that I need only choose to believe or not believe.

Here is a Paragraph:

John 3:16-21 [NASB]​

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 "And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed. 21 "But the one who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds will be revealed as having been performed in God."​

Looking at John 3:18, the words seem simple enough. "The one who believes in Him is not judged" ... can it be any simpler? Can it possibly mean anything OTHER THAN exactly what it says? If you believe, what about you and "judgement"? Go ahead, you can say it.

The second half seems just as clear and unambiguous: "the one who does not believe has been judged already". Can THAT mean anything other than what it says? If you do not believe, then what about you and "judgement"? Go ahead, you can say it.

Of course, that is only ONE WITNESS, and scripture states that every fact will be established by two or three witnesses. So here is a SECOND WITNESS:

Here is a Paragraph:

Romans 10:5-13 [NASB] 5 For Moses writes of the righteousness that is based on the Law, that the person who performs them will live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL GO UP INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."​

What then is this "word of faith" that Paul was preaching?
"If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" ... was any part of that unclear?

• IF YOU (you should know whether you did or did not)
• "confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord" ... there is only one possible interpretation of that - it means exactly what it says.
• "you will be saved" ... there is no "IF" followed by more conditions, there is no "MIGHT" that hedges the bet. As the saying goes, there is no "Yada yada". There is only CERTAINTY ... "WILL BE" saved.
• In case you missed it the first time, Paul repeats it in verse 13: "EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

The only choice for us is two fold:

1. Did we do what it says? (believe, confess)
2. Do we believe what Scripture says is true? ("no judgement", "will be saved")

.... none of which explains why salvation is described as a "hope" in at least twenty NT verses. Ignoring contrary verses is a rather poor approach to understanding the Bible, I should think.

Scripture cannot contradict itself, so if your exegesis is clearly contradicted by at least twenty verses, then obviously your exegesis is wrong.

 

[Lukaris]

Those who cite Romans 10:9-13 about confession of the Lord as our Savior and in His resurrection are definitely right. Depending on how long we live, this is to be lived out by keeping the Lord’s commandments. The Lord told the rich young man even still under the law to observe the commandments ( Matthew 19:16-19 as did St. Paul in Romans 13:8-10. The Lord said if we love Him we will keep His commandments ( see John 14:15-18) and He would pray the Father to send the Holy Spirit to dwell in us ( like in our conscience, I think per 1 Timothy 1:5). This, I believe, is salvation by grace lived out in good works ( Ephesians 2:8-10).

This is and should be the greatest news we have ever heard. The thing is the world can understandably shake our faith. The Lord understands this of course ( see John 16:33). St. Paul knows these struggles too ( Ephesians 6:12-18). St.John tells us to stick to the commandments ( 1 John 2:1-29).

 

[atpollard]

.... none of which explains why salvation is described as a "hope" in at least twenty NT verses. Ignoring contrary verses is a rather poor approach to understanding the Bible, I should think.

Scripture cannot contradict itself, so if your exegesis is clearly contradicted by at least twenty verses, then obviously your exegesis is wrong.

You quoted only one passage and that passage was not one of the 20 that allegedly described salvation as a “hope”. I have provided clear exegesis of clear verses which you have responded to with little more than a “taint so”.

So feel free to address the clear verses that I quoted and I will address a clear verse of your choosing if you truly desire a dialogue. If you just wanted to say “Nu Uhh”, then I counter with “Uhh Huh“.

 

[Buzzard3]

John 3:16-21 [NASB]​

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.​

Looking at John 3:18, the words seem simple enough. "The one who believes in Him is not judged" ... can it be any simpler? Can it possibly mean anything OTHER THAN exactly what it says? If you believe, what about you and "judgement"? Go ahead, you can say it.

The second half seems just as clear and unambiguous: "the one who does not believe has been judged already". Can THAT mean anything other than what it says? If you do not believe, then what about you and "judgement"? Go ahead, you can say it.

Those verses don't mean a believer automatically receives a guaranteed ticket to Heaven. If he loses his faith, for example, he loses his salvation. Likewise, if someone "does not believe", he is not judged as condemned to hell bcoz he may come to faith at a later time in his life.

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."​

What then is this "word of faith" that Paul was preaching?
"If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" ... was any part of that unclear?

• IF YOU (you should know whether you did or did not)
• "confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord" ... there is only one possible interpretation of that - it means exactly what it says.
• "you will be saved" ... there is no "IF" followed by more conditions, there is no "MIGHT" that hedges the bet. As the saying goes, there is no "Yada yada". There is only CERTAINTY ... "WILL BE" saved.
• In case you missed it the first time, Paul repeats it in verse 13: "EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

The only choice for us is two fold:

1. Did we do what it says? (believe, confess)
2. Do we believe what Scripture says is true? ("no judgement", "will be saved)

Basing doctrine on a handful of verses that tickle your fancy, while ignoring any contrary verses, will result in a superfical and flawed understanding of salvation. The totality of the NT makes is clear that there's more to salvation than simply believing a few things.

Salvation is like a coin - on one side is faith, on the side is obedience. James 2:24-26 says "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone ... faith without works is dead".

1John 2:3-6 says a believer who disobeys God’s commandments doesn't "know" Christ, is a "liar" and "the truth is not in him".

Paul warns believers in Gal 5 and 1Cor 6 that their sins can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of God.

Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments" (John 14:15).

Your simplistic "faith alone" doctrine is contradicted by Scripture.

 

[Buzzard3]

God’s word seems clear enough that a person can KNOW (with absolute certainty) whether or not they have done it or not and whether they are saved or not.

To declare yourself certain of salvation is to do the opposite of what Paul says in 1Cor 4:3-5. Paul says, "I do not even judge myself .... It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time".

To declare yourself certain of salvation is to not only "pronounce judgment before the time", but is to put yourself in the place of Christ, who alone has the right to judge and declare someone saved. Not a good idea. Be humble before the Lord.



"3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God." (1Cor 4)

 

[Buzzard3]

You quoted only one passage and that passage was not one of the 20 that allegedly described salvation as a “hope”. I have provided clear exegesis of clear verses which you have responded to with little more than a “taint so”.

The following link contains several verses that refer to salvation as a "hope", all of which suggest that we cannot be certain that we will be saved ... which is not to say we cannot have a hopeful confidence in our salvation.
Our salvation is described as a "hope" because it depends entirely on how Christ will judge us on Judgement Day.

What Does the Bible Say About Hope In Salvation?

 

[Dan Perez]

Hello Dan,

I did not read through your list, but we can talk if you want. Anyone can say they are saved, and many do who are not (or will fall away) Let's start simple. In your mind (your reading of scripture) which verse perhaps best captures the distinction between the righteous and the wicked?

I am mainly on the DISPENSATIONAL part !!

you will find me most every where !!

dan p