How can baptism be required for salvation?

[bbbbbbb]

It's not an opinion so much as a historical reality that has been happening since the Apostles.
Ir makes sense to me that the laying on of hands is the conduit of the Holy Spirit to pass down the tools necessary. So Apostolic Succession is the conduit.

Again, I am not at all surprised. I suppose I should be comforted that you are not espousing off-beat Catholic ideology typically found on the margins.

 

[Doug Brents]

Well this video ought to break you in real good then.

While it is interesting that they are actually baptizing those babies, the fact remains that it is totally irrelevant, useless, and actually counterproductive to baptize infants.

 

[Doug Brents]

Every Christian was wrong then untill recently? The Gospel according to who?

Absolutely not. Most, if not all, Christians believed that salvation occurs at the moment of baptism, when we are “buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him” (Col 2:12) until the last 50 to 75 years (according to what I have read). The idea that one can be saved without taking any action whatsoever is foreign to Scripture and to the early Church.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Absolutely not. Most, if not all, Christians believed that salvation occurs at the moment of baptism, when we are “buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him” (Col 2:12) until the last 50 to 75 years (according to what I have read). The idea that one can be saved without taking any action whatsoever is foreign to Scripture and to the early Church.

There is actually an exceedingly long history of Christian theology which does not associate conversion with physical water baptism. Interestingly, even the Roman Catholic Church does not assert that an infant (or anyone else, for that matter) is saved by water baptism. Baptism, in their view, results in the forgiveness of sins up to that point in time. After baptism there is a lengthy list of necessary things which must be accomplished if one wishes to hope for salvation.

 

[Eloy Craft]

As much as my Protestant brothers and sisters deny it, Baptism is a work of God just as the creation of each soul is. Both are birth experiences. The supernatural change that happens is invisible and subject to ambiguity. The rite is a visible sign that guarantees the invisible part has happened. The Holy Spirit responds to the ritual. Jesus' Baptism from John is a model.
Without the visible sign of the invisible act of God we are much less certain that God has acted.

 

[bbbbbbb]

As much as my Protestant brothers and sisters deny it, Baptism is a work of God just as the creation of each soul is. Both are birth experiences. The supernatural change that happens is invisible and subject to ambiguity. The rite is a visible sign that guarantees the invisible part has happened. The Holy Spirit responds to the ritual. Jesus' Baptism from John is a model.
Without the visible sign of the invisible act of God we are much less certain that God has acted.

Now you are sounding like a Lutheran.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Now you are sounding like a Lutheran.

Yep. look like one too.

 

[Doug Brents]

Interestingly, even the Roman Catholic Church does not assert that an infant (or anyone else, for that matter) is saved by water baptism. Baptism, in their view, results in the forgiveness of sins up to that point in time. After baptism there is a lengthy list of necessary things which must be accomplished if one wishes to hope for salvation.

Sorry, but what the catholic church does or does not do is irrelevant to me. I do not believe they are a Christian Church; they are papist, not Christian.

There is actually an exceedingly long history of Christian theology which does not associate conversion with physical water baptism.

The length of time a false belief is held does not change it to a true belief. Scripture, and only Scripture, is the basis for true doctrine today. And Scripture is VERY clear that forgiveness of past sin occurs during baptism (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14). Sins committed after baptism are continually forgiven as long as the individual “walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light” (1 John 1:7).

 

[bbbbbbb]

Sorry, but what the catholic church does or does not do is irrelevant to me. I do not believe they are a Christian Church; they are papist, not Christian.

The length of time a false belief is held does not change it to a true belief. Scripture, and only Scripture, is the basis for true doctrine today. And Scripture is VERY clear that forgiveness of past sin occurs during baptism (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14). Sins committed after baptism are continually forgiven as long as the individual “walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light” (1 John 1:7).

I understand. When you wrote, "Most, if not all, Christians believed that salvation occurs at the moment of baptism," you actual meant most, if not all, Christians of your particular persuasion and certainly not most, if not all of the folks here at CF who subscribe to the Nicene Creed and are defined here at CF as being Christians. I can just as easily say that most, if not all, Christians, do not believe this or that if, in fact, I exclude anyone in my personal definition of Christian that happens to disagree with this or that.

You also gave a timeline of "until the last 50 to 75 years" which is only true if you define your particular view as being limited to your denomination.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yep. look like one too.

Yeah, as they say, looks can be deceiving.

 

[Valletta]

There is actually an exceedingly long history of Christian theology which does not associate conversion with physical water baptism. Interestingly, even the Roman Catholic Church does not assert that an infant (or anyone else, for that matter) is saved by water baptism. Baptism, in their view, results in the forgiveness of sins up to that point in time. After baptism there is a lengthy list of necessary things which must be accomplished if one wishes to hope for salvation.

Incorrect. It is Catholic teaching that we are saved through the sacrament of Baptism, as the Bible says, and we continue to be saved.

 

[Doug Brents]

I understand. When you wrote, "Most, if not all, Christians believed that salvation occurs at the moment of baptism," you actual meant most, if not all, Christians of your particular persuasion and certainly not most, if not all of the folks here at CF who subscribe to the Nicene Creed and are defined here at CF as being Christians. I can just as easily say that most, if not all, Christians, do not believe this or that if, in fact, I exclude anyone in my personal definition of Christian that happens to disagree with this or that.

You also gave a timeline of "until the last 50 to 75 years" which is only true if you define your particular view as being limited to your denomination.

I am sorry that you, and most of the people on this forum, believe Satan’s lie that salvation occurs with mental assent and baptism follows as an “outward sign of an inward change”. According to the Word of God, nothing could be further from the truth. And that does not come from “my denomination”, that is God’s Word.
Mark 16:16
Rom 6:1-4
Col 2:11-14
Acts 2:38
1 Pet 3:21
Eph 5:26
All of these passages say, or allude to the fact that, we are saved when we are immersed (baptized) in water which is when the Holy Spirit removes our sin and unites us with Christ’s death and resurrection.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Incorrect. It is Catholic teaching that we are saved through the sacrament of Baptism, as the Bible says, and we continue to be saved.

Yes, that is technically true. However, the poster, who has informed me that he does not consider Catholics to be Christians, believes that all one must do to enter heaven is to be baptized. In Catholicism, as you know, baptism is merely the first rite in a lifetime (and beyond in Purgatory) process of salvation.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I am sorry that you, and most of the people on this forum, believe Satan’s lie that salvation occurs with mental assent and baptism follows as an “outward sign of an inward change”. According to the Word of God, nothing could be further from the truth. And that does not come from “my denomination”, that is God’s Word.
Mark 16:16
Rom 6:1-4
Col 2:11-14
Acts 2:38
1 Pet 3:21
Eph 5:26
All of these passages say, or allude to the fact that, we are saved when we are immersed (baptized) in water which is when the Holy Spirit removes our sin and unites us with Christ’s death and resurrection.

Actually, most people on this forum are Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Lutherans - none of whom believe that salvation occurs with mental assent and baptism follows. Those who do believe that are a distinct minority here at CF.

 

[Valletta]

Yes, that is technically true. However, the poster, who has informed me that he does not consider Catholics to be Christians, believes that all one must do to enter heaven is to be baptized. In Catholicism, as you know, baptism is merely the first rite in a lifetime (and beyond in Purgatory) process of salvation.

We do believe we receive graces through further sacraments. If we gravely sin after Baptism (mortal sin) then we can lose our salvation but God continues to save us through his forgiveness.

 

[Valletta]

I am sorry that you, and most of the people on this forum, believe Satan’s lie that salvation occurs with mental assent and baptism follows as an “outward sign of an inward change”. According to the Word of God, nothing could be further from the truth. And that does not come from “my denomination”, that is God’s Word.
Mark 16:16
Rom 6:1-4
Col 2:11-14
Acts 2:38
1 Pet 3:21
Eph 5:26
All of these passages say, or allude to the fact that, we are saved when we are immersed (baptized) in water which is when the Holy Spirit removes our sin and unites us with Christ’s death and resurrection.

 

[Valletta]

Actually, most people on this forum are Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Lutherans - none of whom believe that salvation occurs with mental assent and baptism follows. Those who do believe that are a distinct minority here at CF.

1 Pet 3:20-21
God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now.

 

[bbbbbbb]

We do believe we receive graces through further sacraments. If we gravely sin after Baptism (mortal sin) then we can lose our salvation but God continues to save us through his forgiveness.

Yes, that is absolutely true. The other poster does not believe that.

 

[Doug Brents]

We do believe we receive graces through further sacraments. If we gravely sin after Baptism (mortal sin) then we can lose our salvation but God continues to save us through his forgiveness.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is a “mortal sin”? And if there is a “mortal sin” then there may yet be a not-mortal sin: what is one of those?

The reason I ask is that, according to Scripture, if you break even the smallest part of God’s law that makes you a law breaker, and makes you guilty of breaking the whole law (James 2:10).

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes, that is absolutely true. The other poster does not believe that.

I do believe we can lose our salvation (through turning again to unrepentant sin), but we don’t lose it just because we sin once regardless of how “big” that sin may be.

And a sacrament is something that, in and of itself, conveys grace to the doer. There is no such thing. Baptism conveys salvation only if the person being baptized believes in Christ and has Confessed His name as Lord, and has repented of his sins.
Taking the Lord’s Supper (Communion) does not convey anything. It is a remembrance of Christ’s death, but no where in Scripture does it say it conveys salvation (although it does convey condemnation if taken in an unworthy manner).