Historical Anabaptist and the Death Penalty

[MrJim]

It's funny that the subject of the death penalty is such a hot topic. It was literally a hot topic for the anabaptists that were put to the stake.

Here is a portion from Article 6 of the Schleitheim Articles:

Sixth. We are agreed as follows concerning the sword: The sword is ordained of God outside the perfection of Christ. It punishes and puts to death the wicked, and guards and protects the good. In the Law the sword was ordained for the punishment of the wicked and for their death, and the same [sword] is [now] ordained to be used by the worldly magistrates.

This view still followed by many anabaptists says that the gov't is simply wielding its power given by God. Note that it doesn't put a requirement that the gov't be "just" or "Godly", but simply that the gov't is empowered by God.

Now during the persecution of the anabaptists it was understood by them that yes, by not baptizing infants, by rebaptizing believers, and especially not participating in the state's war they were breaking man's law and would have to suffer the consequences. When given the opportunity they defended their position (which shows that non-resistance does not equal passivity) and defended it well (see Michael Sattler http://www.gameo.org/index.asp?content=http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/S280.html)

Yet even as Stephen's defense still ended in his death so also did many anabaptists. They considered it the "baptism of blood".

In this day there is much talk about peace & justice in the anabaptist/mennonite churches and in attempting to influence the gov't to stop capital punishment. Understand that it is because of God's mercy that we seek this to happen. YET, if understood as Schleitheim & ultimately Romans 13 teaches, we cannot refute the state's right by God to carry out the usage of the sword in execution. We can continue to try to speak to the gov't about changing this much as William Wilberforce worked at changing slave trade. That is the way of the anabaptists-that is the way of Christ. Not by forcing but by the life changing grace of Christ.

Note that further in Article 6:

Thirdly, it will be asked concerning the sword, Shall one be a magistrate if one should be chosen as such? The answer is as follows: They wished to make Christ king, but He fled and did not view it as the arrangement of His Father. Thus shall we do as He did, and follow Him, and so shall we not walk in darkness. For He Himself says, He who wishes to come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Also, He Himself forbids the [employment of] the force of the sword saying, The worldly princes lord it over them, etc., but not so shall it be with you. Further, Paul says, Whom God did foreknow He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, etc. Also Peter says, Christ has suffered (not ruled) and left us an example, that ye should follow His steps.

(By invoking Wilberforce I am not suggesting that politics is the place for Christians-as stated is in fact discouraged, but that is for another thread)

 

[Danfrey]

My brother,

You are teaching two kingdoms theology here. This is a concept that is all but gone in the Mennonite churches. In one concervative church that I was a member of, they refered to something called "the drift". I think they were talking about subjects like this. In our human mind it is easy to go from the concept of not participating in war or violence to the idea that we need to get the government to think the same way. It would give the non-resistant stand alot more credit if it were approached from the two kingdoms approach.

 

[MrJim]

My brother,

You are teaching two kingdoms theology here. This is a concept that is all but gone in the Mennonite churches. In one concervative church that I was a member of, they refered to something called "the drift". I think they were talking about subjects like this. In our human mind it is easy to go from the concept of not participating in war or violence to the idea that we need to get the government to think the same way. It would give the non-resistant stand alot more credit if it were approached from the two kingdoms approach.

Glad to see ya!

That deserves a thread of it's own. That is the key to the anabaptist worldview!

 

[MrJim]

This is from MennoniteUSA:





[FONT=Arial,sans-serif]A Resolution: The Death Penalty[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,sans-serif] [/FONT] [FONT=Arial,sans-serif] In view of our Christian responsibility to value all human life we are compelled to set forth our opposition to all capital punishment.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,sans-serif] [/FONT] [FONT=Arial,sans-serif] Whereas [/FONT]

• [FONT=Arial,sans-serif]
• The General Conference Mennonite Church called for "federal and state governments . . .to discontinue the use of the death penalty" at Estes Park, Colorado, July 16, 1965;
• The Mennonite Church called for "federal and state governments . . . to discontinue the use of the death penalty" at Kidron, Ohio, August 1965;
• The criminal justice system has sent innocent people to death row, and the death penalty is applied in a racially-discriminatory fashion, and disproportionately to some of society's most vulnerable people; and
• We acknowledge the deep grief of families of murder victims and victims of capital punishment laws; hold them in our prayers; and commit ourselves to walk with them;[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,sans-serif] [/FONT] [FONT=Arial,sans-serif] Therefore we resolve that Mennonite Church USA appeal to state and federal governments to abolish the death penalty.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,sans-serif] [/FONT] [FONT=Arial,sans-serif] We resolve further that the Executive Director of Mennonite Church USA address this issue with the President of the United States and urge area conferences to address relevant governors.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,sans-serif] [/FONT] [FONT=Arial,sans-serif] We further urge congregations to take action to support abolition of the death penalty through prayer, letter writing, and public vigils at murder sites and at prisons where executions occur.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,sans-serif]
[/FONT] [FONT=Arial,sans-serif] Adopted by Mennonite Church USA Delegate Assembly July 7, 2001, meeting in Nashville, Tenn.

(posted for informational purposes)
[/FONT]

 

[vespasia]

The UK Government discontinued the use of the death penalty in 1965 and the death penalty for treason and piracy with violence was formally abolished in 1999
The statues that the UK have agreed to uphold makes it almost impossible for the UK Government to ever bring it back.

UK Quakers and similar began to quitely and peacefully campaign for the death penalty to be abolished from the late 1700's.
Prayer and peaceful lobbying can change societies.

 

[Danfrey]

This is from MennoniteUSA:





[FONT=Arial,sans-serif]A Resolution: The Death Penalty[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,sans-serif] [/FONT] [FONT=Arial,sans-serif] In view of our Christian responsibility to value all human life we are compelled to set forth our opposition to all capital punishment.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,sans-serif] [/FONT] [FONT=Arial,sans-serif] Whereas [/FONT]

• [FONT=Arial,sans-serif]
• The General Conference Mennonite Church called for "federal and state governments . . .to discontinue the use of the death penalty" at Estes Park, Colorado, July 16, 1965;
• The Mennonite Church called for "federal and state governments . . . to discontinue the use of the death penalty" at Kidron, Ohio, August 1965;
• The criminal justice system has sent innocent people to death row, and the death penalty is applied in a racially-discriminatory fashion, and disproportionately to some of society's most vulnerable people; and
• We acknowledge the deep grief of families of murder victims and victims of capital punishment laws; hold them in our prayers; and commit ourselves to walk with them;[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,sans-serif] [/FONT] [FONT=Arial,sans-serif] Therefore we resolve that Mennonite Church USA appeal to state and federal governments to abolish the death penalty.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,sans-serif] [/FONT] [FONT=Arial,sans-serif] We resolve further that the Executive Director of Mennonite Church USA address this issue with the President of the United States and urge area conferences to address relevant governors.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,sans-serif] [/FONT] [FONT=Arial,sans-serif] We further urge congregations to take action to support abolition of the death penalty through prayer, letter writing, and public vigils at murder sites and at prisons where executions occur.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,sans-serif]
[/FONT] [FONT=Arial,sans-serif] Adopted by Mennonite Church USA Delegate Assembly July 7, 2001, meeting in Nashville, Tenn.

(posted for informational purposes)
[/FONT]

Notice that in the resolution from Mennonite USA there is no reference to scripture. I agree that the idea of the dealth penalty is uncomfortable, but it is definately not unscriptural. Maybe, we could use the woman caught in adultery as an example, but Jesus was speaking to the religious people at the time and not the Roman government.

 

[ZiSunka]

It's funny how many people take the armor of God and twist it around into a mandate for Christians to take up arms.

People seem to miss the point that the armor of God is there for our protection against spiritual enemies, not as a packing list for physical military actions.

It's all the more weird considering that every piece of armor in the list is a defensive weapon, not an offensive weapon. It's all about spiritual battle, not military offensive.

 

[ZiSunka]

Notice that in the resolution from Mennonite USA there is no reference to scripture. I agree that the idea of the dealth penalty is uncomfortable, but it is definately not unscriptural. Maybe, we could use the woman caught in adultery as an example, but Jesus was speaking to the religious people at the time and not the Roman government.

I just don't see how Christians can call for the death penalty and still savor their own salvation. We deserve worse than death, yet God has graciously made a way for us to be spared.

I keep thinking about the servant whose master forgave his huge debt and then turned around and demanded payment from a fellow servant with a much smaller debt.

Our debt to God far exceeds any debt any criminal owes to society, yet we gratefully accept God's cancellation of our debt while we shake our fists and demand the ultimate payment from someone else.

To me, it seems like a person who would do that, doesn't understand just how much they have been forgiven and how big their debt to God really is/was.

A person who is forgiven much, loves much, not only Jesus, but our fellow humans as well.

 

[Danfrey]

I just don't see how Christians can call for the death penalty and still savor their own salvation. We deserve worse than death, yet God has graciously made a way for us to be spared.

I keep thinking about the servant whose master forgave his huge debt and then turned around and demanded payment from a fellow servant with a much smaller debt.

Our debt to God far exceeds any debt any criminal owes to society, yet we gratefully accept God's cancellation of our debt while we shake our fists and demand the ultimate payment from someone else.

To me, it seems like a person who would do that, doesn't understand just how much they have been forgiven and how big their debt to God really is/was.

A person who is forgiven much, loves much, not only Jesus, but our fellow humans as well.

I think you are missing my point. I would call for no death. Even if I were the victim of a major crime, I would ask that the death penalty not be impossed. My point is that as citizens of the heavenly kingdom, it is not our place to tell the government what they can and can't do. In Romans 13 the sword that government is given the authority to wield is not a spiritual sword. They are given this authority to punish the evil doer.

We have to make sure our beliefs come from scripture not from personal opinion.

 

[ZiSunka]

I think you are missing my point. I would call for no death. Even if I were the victim of a major crime, I would ask that the death penalty not be impossed. My point is that as citizens of the heavenly kingdom, it is not our place to tell the government what they can and can't do. In Romans 13 the sword that government is given the authority to wield is not a spiritual sword. They are given this authority to punish the evil doer.

We have to make sure our beliefs come from scripture not from personal opinion.

I guess if we were in a country where we had no say in what goes on, I would agree with you. But since we live in a country that is of the people, by the people and for the people, we have a right to give voice to God's way of doing things.

I think it's kind of a cop-out to say you oppose the death penalty but support the government's right to kill criminals. That's playing both sides of the court. You must choose a side of the court of let go of the racquet! It's almost like you support the death penalty but want to seem spiritual while you do it.

To say that Christians should have no say in what their government does when it is by God's ordinance that this government exists and allows its citizens to have a voice, it's like throwing that awesome gift of participation in the government back in God's face!

 

[Danfrey]

I guess if we were in a country where we had no say in what goes on, I would agree with you. But since we live in a country that is of the people, by the people and for the people, we have a right to give voice to God's way of doing things.

I think it's kind of a cop-out to say you oppose the death penalty but support the government's right to kill criminals. That's playing both sides of the court. You must choose a side of the court of let go of the racquet! It's almost like you support the death penalty but want to seem spiritual while you do it.

To say that Christians should have no say in what their government does when it is by God's ordinance that this government exists and allows its citizens to have a voice, it's like throwing that awesome gift of participation in the government back in God's face!

All of that sounds good to the human mind, but as Christians we are to submit to the government, we are not told in scripture to try and control it. That is something that didn't come into the Christian mindset until the likes of Augustine, when Christians began to get power. Christians were never meant to participate in government. I would challenge anyone who disagrees to show me precedent for Christians participating in government.

 

[ZiSunka]

All of that sounds good to the human mind, but as Christians we are to submit to the government, we are not told in scripture to try and control it. That is something that didn't come into the Christian mindset until the likes of Augustine, when Christians began to get power. Christians were never meant to participate in government. I would challenge anyone who disagrees to show me precedent for Christians participating in government.

It's not about power, it's about sufferage from the Lord.

It's only the most conservative anabaptists who refuse all participation in government. Even the Amish in Ohio registered and voted when gay marriage was on the ballot two years ago.

There is nothing unscriptural with obeying the government and our government says we have the right and the obligation to participate in what it does. It's in the Constitution. The Consitution and our laws were created by our government, and since they were and our government was established by God for his purposes, we have an obligation to follow God's teachings and do what the Constitution and our laws allow us to do.

 

[Danfrey]

It's not about power, it's about sufferage from the Lord.

It's only the most conservative anabaptists who refuse all participation in government. Even the Amish in Ohio registered and voted when gay marriage was on the ballot two years ago.

There is nothing unscriptural with obeying the government and our government says we have the right and the obligation to participate in what it does. It's in the Constitution. The Consitution and our laws were created by our government, and since they were and our government was established by God for his purposes, we have an obligation to follow God's teachings and do what the Constitution and our laws allow us to do.

This is not only the historic Anabaptist stand, it is the historic Christian stand. It is modern Christianity that has strayed from it. I am aware of the Amish voting, it saddened me to see it on the front page of some newspaper. There is a real lack of understanding of the Two Kingdoms in Anabpatist churches today. As far as it being only the most conservative Anabaptists, I don't think anyone would accuse me of being the most conservative. I argue against alot of things that are considered proper in conservative circles.

 

[ZiSunka]

This is not only the historic Anabaptist stand, it is the historic Christian stand. It is modern Christianity that has strayed from it. I am aware of the Amish voting, it saddened me to see it on the front page of some newspaper. There is a real lack of understanding of the Two Kingdoms in Anabpatist churches today. As far as it being only the most conservative Anabaptists, I don't think anyone would accuse me of being the most conservative. I argue against alot of things that are considered proper in conservative circles.

A lot of times, the new converts are the most staunchly rigid in their stance against this or for that.

The people who are born and raised in the anabaptist sects are much less rigid and more likely to do things that are logical as well as scriptural. Refusing to think for one's self is not a virtue, Biblically or otherwise.

 

[MrJim]

I've been amongst the anabaptists for nearly 20 years and I would agree with Dan on this one.

Referendum type of issues that arise like the gay vote thing does cause me to wonder though. If there was a vote to make abortion illegal would I vote? Is it an excercise of power or just sounding our voice? It's not like taking an office. More like the gov't just asking citizens what they want.

Then again our citizenship isn't in America or Canada or England or Ghana but in heaven. But if a visiting ambassador was asked to vote in a local election since they were residing in that nation, perhaps they would?

 

[Danfrey]

A lot of times, the new converts are the most staunchly rigid in their stance against this or for that.

The people who are born and raised in the anabaptist sects are much less rigid and more likely to do things that are logical as well as scriptural. Refusing to think for one's self is not a virtue, Biblically or otherwise.

I think you have just hit on one of the major problems with Anabaptist churches. When you are raised in a faith, it is easy to believe what your parents or church leaders teach you. I was one of those people in a heretical Pentecostal church. I have met many Anabaptists who have never really wrestled with thier faith. In a sense they are not much different from an infant being baptised. I am generalizing here to make a point. It is very easy for people who come from a we have always done it that way background to be swayed to other teachings. Also, because of abuse of authority and adding to scripture there was a real departure from the traditional Anabaptist faith. Many threw out the baby with the bath water. The cover is a good example. There were so many silly rules about the cover that people tended to reject it all together. Instead of just following what the Bible teaches, a cover for prayer and prophesy. Just one example.

When it comes to converts, (not just the new ones)they tend to be very passionate about their faith. They often had to decide for themselves to follow Biblical teachings. When someone comes to the faith in this way, it is very real for them. I was in the military when I learned to be non-resistant. Of course I am going to be passionate about it. I wish more parents would give thier children room to make the faith their own.

There is nothing logical about God coming to earth as man and dying for sins he did not commit. As far as independent thinking, I gladly lay it down to follow what it taught in scripture.

 

[ZiSunka]

I've been amongst the anabaptists for nearly 20 years and I would agree with Dan on this one.

Referendum type of issues that arise like the gay vote thing does cause me to wonder though. If there was a vote to make abortion illegal would I vote? Is it an excercise of power or just sounding our voice? It's not like taking an office. More like the gov't just asking citizens what they want.

Then again our citizenship isn't in America or Canada or England or Ghana but in heaven. But if a visiting ambassador was asked to vote in a local election since they were residing in that nation, perhaps they would?

Someone who is mennonite for 20 years would still be considered a new convert. Your children's children, if can trace their mennonite heritage back for at least three generations, would be birthright and not converts.

In the old order meetings, the preaching went like this:

"God brought us into this country before the founding of this government. He knew there would come a point when we would have to take a stand. On political issues and economic issues and military issues we have always been silent. Not we are presented the opportunity to have a say in a moral issue, in a government ordained by God that allows us to have input in this moral issue. As Esther was brought into the palace to have a voice with the king to save her people, we have been brought into this nation and live at this time to have a voice to our government on something that, if we stand aside and allow it to happen, will legalize many thousands, perhaps millions of abominations in the eyes of God. If we stand aside silently and allow this to happen, make no mistake, we will answer to God for it.

When abortion was legalized, that was an act of the Supreme Court and we had no opportunity to speak to that, thus we have no responsibility for that abomination, the courts, the doctors, the women and men who participate in it do. When the military spent billions of dollars on a war to protect oil, that worldly commodity that creates nothing but sorrow and heartbreak through wars, car crashes and terrorism, we had no say in it, since it never came before the people on a ballot. When embryonic stem cell research came into being, a horrible abomination before the Lord, there was no opportunity for us to speak the scriptures for the Lord.

But on this issue, the matter is being brought before the people, in a government system ordained by the Lord, we have not only the right, but the obligation to register and to vote against this proposal, just as Esther had the obligation to speak to save her people. God clearly permits His people to have a voice in the highest places when He ordains. At this moment in this place, it seems clear to me that He has ordained that we have our voice, His voice. We cannot trust others to do what is right. We can see by the way they live and the things they do that they do not know what is right. We cannot stand idly aside and allow homosexual "marriage" in our communities, in our state. We must speak the scriptures, the sacred words of God, through our vote. If we fail to do this, we are as guilty of that abominatble sin as if we were committing it ourselves.

We are not going forth to vote on all issues or to participate in political, economic or military issues. Our citizenship is not in this world. We need not, should not dally in the affairs of this world. But the legalization of homosexual unions is an issue that will follow us to our homeland, that Beulahland we love and long to see. We will answer for what we do or fail to do on this moral matter." From: Why Should the Amish Vote? by Atlee Stoltzfus, 2004, Plain Path Publications, Burton, Ohio. (Many scripture references attached, I didn't retype them here, but if you want to see them, I will."


When we vote on moral issues, we are taking a stand against immorality, we are not participating in the running of government. If we stand silent, we are guilty of those sins, perhaps more guilty because we know what is right and allow evil to happen while we stay silent.

 

[Danfrey]

Someone who is mennonite for 20 years would still be considered a new convert. Your children's children, if can trace their mennonite heritage back for at least three generations, would be birthright and not converts.

In the old order meetings, the preaching went like this:

"God brought us into this country before the founding of this government. He knew there would come a point when we would have to take a stand. On political issues and economic issues and military issues we have always been silent. Not we are presented the opportunity to have a say in a moral issue, in a government ordained by God that allows us to have input in this moral issue. As Esther was brought into the palace to have a voice with the king to save her people, we have been brought into this nation and live at this time to have a voice to our government on something that, if we stand aside and allow it to happen, will legalize many thousands, perhaps millions of abominations in the eyes of God. If we stand aside silently and allow this to happen, make no mistake, we will answer to God for it.

When abortion was legalized, that was an act of the Supreme Court and we had no opportunity to speak to that, thus we have no responsibility for that abomination, the courts, the doctors, the women and men who participate in it do. When the military spent billions of dollars on a war to protect oil, that worldly commodity that creates nothing but sorrow and heartbreak through wars, car crashes and terrorism, we had no say in it, since it never came before the people on a ballot. When embryonic stem cell research came into being, a horrible abomination before the Lord, there was no opportunity for us to speak the scriptures for the Lord.

But on this issue, the matter is being brought before the people, in a government system ordained by the Lord, we have not only the right, but the obligation to register and to vote against this proposal, just as Esther had the obligation to speak to save her people. God clearly permits His people to have a voice in the highest places when He ordains. At this moment in this place, it seems clear to me that He has ordained that we have our voice, His voice. We cannot trust others to do what is right. We can see by the way they live and the things they do that they do not know what is right. We cannot stand idly aside and allow homosexual "marriage" in our communities, in our state. We must speak the scriptures, the sacred words of God, through our vote. If we fail to do this, we are as guilty of that abominatble sin as if we were committing it ourselves.

We are not going forth to vote on all issues or to participate in political, economic or military issues. Our citizenship is not in this world. We need not, should not dally in the affairs of this world. But the legalization of homosexual unions is an issue that will follow us to our homeland, that Beulahland we love and long to see. We will answer for what we do or fail to do on this moral matter." From: Why Should the Amish Vote? by Atlee Stoltzfus, 2004, Plain Path Publications, Burton, Ohio. (Many scripture references attached, I didn't retype them here, but if you want to see them, I will."


When we vote on moral issues, we are taking a stand against immorality, we are not participating in the running of government. If we stand silent, we are guilty of those sins, perhaps more guilty because we know what is right and allow evil to happen while we stay silent.

In thier attempt to fight homosexual marriage, they helped put a man into power that lead the country to war. How do they now have a right not to fight in that war. Is it not thier duty when it is thier government?

 

[ZiSunka]

There is nothing logical about God coming to earth as man and dying for sins he did not commit. As far as independent thinking, I gladly lay it down to follow what it taught in scripture.

God can't be illogical. His logic begins and ends with love.

If you think it's loving to allow homosexuals to get married, legally sanctioned by the state you live in, then I would think you are a lot more liberal than you are letting on.

If you think that we must submit to the government on matters of the death penalty without objection, than you must also think we must submit to them on matters of abortion and military action without objection. That seems more like a "go along to get along" attitude than it does a godly righteousness.

 

[ZiSunka]

In thier attempt to fight homosexual marriage, they helped put a man into power that lead the country to war. How do they now have a right not to fight in that war. Is it not thier duty when it is thier government?

They only voted on the homosexual marriage issue. The didn't vote for any candidates or other issues.

I would think that if anybody has an obligation to fight in this war, it would be the person who says Christians must always submit to their government and never participate in its decisions, like the decision to go to war.