Hebrews says that God's new covenant nullified the old

[Guojing]

Don't misunderstand me.

There is no Faith without Works, in my view. There is no belief without Works, in my view. We all have religious "Works", the question is, are they wrought in God or man?

If you believe there is no faith without works, how can Paul meant what he stated in Romans 4:5?

 

[Ligurian]

We means, those who are not from Israel

I go to the voice to which I am drawn, and I stay there: His sheep hear His voice.
If I were drawn to your without law doctrine, then I'd be part of your "we".

Since Sayce knew what people looked like from the Egyptian monuments, this is our best guess as to whom our forefathers were. The same faces are what we see all around the world today... mankind hasn't changed very much.
See Mystery Ephraim?

 

[Studyman]

If you believe there is no faith without works, how can Paul meant what he stated in Romans 4:5?

That is a great question. Please allow me to answer it in some detail. I'll try and keep the post as short as I can.

Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

In Romans 3 and 4, Paul is speaking about the Jews and their religion regarding how a man is Justified (forgiven). He concludes "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

In the Law and Prophets, God had Laws, Statutes, Judgments and Commandments. He gave these to Abraham, who is said to have obeyed them.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

God also gave these to Israel, and even had them written down for the first time. But Israel "Transgressed". Something Abraham did not do in God's Eyes.

Ex. 32:30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.

Remember, the Passover Lamb had already been slain. But There was no "LAW" of justification/Forgiveness of Sin given yet.

God ADDED Sacrificial Deeds/Works to provide for forgiveness "Till the Seed should come", through a Priesthood Covenant HE made with Levi. (Mal. 2:4-9)

Abraham had God's Laws, but he didn't have these "works of the Law" for Justification, as Levi was not even born yet. Abraham was justified "apart" from the Added "works of the Law" of forgiveness.

Jer. 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, (Like Abraham) that it may be well unto you.

The Jews didn't believe Jesus was the Prophesied High Priest "After the order of Melchizedek", and were still promoting the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for forgiveness/justification, not knowing they all pointed to Jesus in the first place.

Paul is explaining that Abraham was Justified apart from this Law. That this Law was "ADDED" because of Transgressions, and was to be in effect until the Promised "SEED" should come.

So he is saying basically;

"For if Abraham were justified by bringing a goat to a Levite Priest, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (And his belief was confirmed by his works "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him")

4 Now to him that worketh (purchases forgiveness by offering the blood of a goat) is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, (Does not purchase his forgiveness) but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith (shown by obedience) is counted for righteousness.

You can confirm this by asking yourself "What were the "works" required in the Law and Prophets for forgiveness before "After those days"?"

Did Moses say "If a man sins, he shall love his neighbor as himself, and his sin is forgiven"? Did Moses say "If a man sins, he shall Love the Lord your God with all your heart and your sins are forgiven"?

Are these the "works of the Law" of Justification Moses gave?

No. Moses said;

Lev. 4:27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; 28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.

29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar. 31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

These are the "Works" Paul is talking about when he speaks to "works of the law" for justification.

As prophesied, the religions of this world, that is, those "many" who come in Jesus' Name, are teaching falsehoods about the Scriptures. Take heed you are not deceived by them as Jesus instructs.

The Covenant that changed was the Priesthood Covenant God made with Levi. the "LAW" that changed was the Law that said only a Levite could partake of the Priesthood. Jesus was from Judah. (Heb. 7)

I like your posts, and your perspective. Please consider this answer, and engage about it with me.

Thanks for the question.

 

[Guojing]

That is a great question. Please allow me to answer it in some detail. I'll try and keep the post as short as I can.

Rom. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

In Romans 3 and 4, Paul is speaking about the Jews and their religion regarding how a man is Justified (forgiven). He concludes "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

In the Law and Prophets, God had Laws, Statutes, Judgments and Commandments. He gave these to Abraham, who is said to have obeyed them.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

God also gave these to Israel, and even had them written down for the first time. But Israel "Transgressed". Something Abraham did not do in God's Eyes.

Ex. 32:30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.

Remember, the Passover Lamb had already been slain. But There was no "LAW" of justification/Forgiveness of Sin given yet.

God ADDED Sacrificial Deeds/Works to provide for forgiveness "Till the Seed should come", through a Priesthood Covenant HE made with Levi. (Mal. 2:4-9)

Abraham had God's Laws, but he didn't have these "works of the Law" for Justification, as Levi was not even born yet. Abraham was justified "apart" from the Added "works of the Law" of forgiveness.

Jer. 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, (Like Abraham) that it may be well unto you.

The Jews didn't believe Jesus was the Prophesied High Priest "After the order of Melchizedek", and were still promoting the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for forgiveness/justification, not knowing they all pointed to Jesus in the first place.

Paul is explaining that Abraham was Justified apart from this Law. That this Law was "ADDED" because of Transgressions, and was to be in effect until the Promised "SEED" should come.

So he is saying basically;

"For if Abraham were justified by bringing a goat to a Levite Priest, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (And his belief was confirmed by his works "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him")

4 Now to him that worketh (purchases forgiveness by offering the blood of a goat) is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, (Does not purchase his forgiveness) but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith (shown by obedience) is counted for righteousness.

You can confirm this by asking yourself "What were the "works" required in the Law and Prophets for forgiveness before "After those days"?"

Did Moses say "If a man sins, he shall love his neighbor as himself, and his sin is forgiven"? Did Moses say "If a man sins, he shall Love the Lord your God with all your heart and your sins are forgiven"?

Are these the "works of the Law" of Justification Moses gave?

No. Moses said;

Lev. 4:27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; 28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.

29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar. 31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

These are the "Works" Paul is talking about when he speaks to "works of the law" for justification.

As prophesied, the religions of this world, that is, those "many" who come in Jesus' Name, are teaching falsehoods about the Scriptures. Take heed you are not deceived by them as Jesus instructs.

The Covenant that changed was the Priesthood Covenant God made with Levi. the "LAW" that changed was the Law that said only a Levite could partake of the Priesthood. Jesus was from Judah. (Heb. 7)

I like your posts, and your perspective. Please consider this answer, and engage about it with me.

Thanks for the question.

Hmm, actually I was just asking you whether Paul is saying faith can exist without works in romans 4:5.

Do you agree or disagree?

 

[Studyman]

Hmm, actually I was just asking you whether Paul is saying faith can exist without works in romans 4:5.

Do you agree or disagree?

I don't accept the premise of your question. It doesn't make sense.

You are asking "Is Paul saying Abraham's Faith existed without works?" in Rom. 4:5. Then you are asking if I agree or disagree.

Agree or disagree with what? That Abraham's Faith was " dead" or "not dead"?

Paul is not saying Abraham's Faith existed without "work". He said Abraham believed in the God that Justified him.

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Did Abraham "believe" this God? Paul said Yes. And how would he know? Because he believes all that is written in the Law and Prophets, which tells us;

4. So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;

James 2:22. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I think you are missing the point Paul is making here. Abraham had living Faith, but he didn't have the "works of the Law" of justification that was "ADDED" 430 years after him, because of Israel's transgressions.

It's unwise, in my view, to take one sentence out from the middle of a 16 chapter letter Paul wrote to the Saints in Rome, and not regard or consider the rest of the Scriptures.

 

[Guojing]

I don't accept the premise of your question. It doesn't make sense.

You are asking "Is Paul saying Abraham's Faith existed without works?" in Rom. 4:5. Then you are asking if I agree or disagree.

Agree or disagree with what? That Abraham's Faith was " dead" or "not dead"?

Paul is not saying Abraham's Faith existed without "work". He said Abraham believed in the God that Justified him.

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Did Abraham "believe" this God? Paul said Yes. And how would he know? Because he believes all that is written in the Law and Prophets, which tells us;

4. So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;

James 2:22. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I think you are missing the point Paul is making here. Abraham had living Faith, but he didn't have the "works of the Law" of justification that was "ADDED" 430 years after him, because of Israel's transgressions.

It's unwise, in my view, to take one sentence out from the middle of a 16 chapter letter Paul wrote to the Saints in Rome, and not regard or consider the rest of the Scriptures.

I see, alright, I conclude that you believe without works, faith cannot exist.

So, to you, the definition of faith, include works.

 

[Studyman]

I see, alright, I conclude that you believe without works, faith cannot exist.

So, to you, the definition of faith, include works.

Well to be honest, I believe What Paul, and James teach. Paul teaches that we are judged by our deeds and that God is no respecter of persons. And James teaches that Faith without works is dead.

So I believe that the Holy Scriptures are to guide my footsteps. And the Holy Scriptures teach that Faith is dead without works.

What I was pointing out in the first reply was the “works of the law” for justification that Paul is speaking to.

Abraham’s Faith was shown by works, he was “justified” by this Faith. Not by the sacrificial “works of a Priesthood law” added 430 years later, because Israel sinned a great sin.

This is the truth of scripture I wish to discuss and examine.

 

[Guojing]

Well to be honest, I believe What Paul, and James teach. Paul teaches that we are judged by our deeds and that God is no respecter of persons. And James teaches that Faith without works is dead.

So I believe that the Holy Scriptures are to guide my footsteps. And the Holy Scriptures teach that Faith is dead without works.

What I was pointing out in the first reply was the “works of the law” for justification that Paul is speaking to.

Abraham’s Faith was shown by works, he was “justified” by this Faith. Not by the sacrificial “works of a Priesthood law” added 430 years later, because Israel sinned a great sin.

This is the truth of scripture I wish to discuss and examine.

Yes, I have learned that many Christians are determined to make James and Paul mean the same thing.

I sometimes wonder whether they will have the same enthusiasm to do that if James happened to be the last book of the OT, but because James was placed in the NT, I can understand their motivation.

 

[A_Thinker]

Since you believe if there is no works, there cannot be faith, can one conclude that you define faith to include works?

Faith doesn't include works.

Faith produces works ...

 

[Guojing]

Faith doesn't include works.

Faith produces works ...

Isn't that circular?

Faith does not include works
But when there is no works, there cannot be faith.

 

[Studyman]

Yes, I have learned that many Christians are determined to make James and Paul mean the same thing.

I sometimes wonder whether they will have the same enthusiasm to do that if James happened to be the last book of the OT, but because James was placed in the NT, I can understand their motivation.[/QUOTE

In my view, both James and Paul taught truth from the Torah and Prophets. Only in religions of this world are they portrayed as teaching contrary to the OT. Both truths, that is, that men are judged by their deeds and also that Faith without works is dead, was first taught in the OT. It’s just that men didn’t believe it then either.


I am not motivated to understand anything other than what the scriptures teach.

I posted what both Paul and James teach.

if you disagree with them, you are on the path of “many” in the religions of this world.
Still, you seem to be avoiding the definition of “work” according to the letters of Paul to the Saints in Romans.

This avoidance is very common among religious men, but frustrating just the same.

 

[Guojing]

if you disagree with them, you are on the path of “many” in the religions of this world.
Still, you seem to be avoiding the definition of “work” according to the letters of Paul to the Saints in Romans.

My view is that faith is believing.
Works is what you do.

They are always separated.

I agree with both James and Paul but they are writing to different audience at different time periods.

In time past and the age to come, faith without works is indeed dead. Belief in God command requires a corresponding work to do, in order to show your faith is alive. James is referring to those 2 time periods.

Its only in the current "but now" time period that faith without works can now save you. Paul is referring to this time period.

 

[A_Thinker]

Isn't that circular?

Faith does not include works
But when there is no works, there cannot be faith.

It's not circular, because works doesn't produce faith.

In this world (God's creation), some things produce other things, which weren't part of the original.

For instance, Hydrogen (a gas) and Oxygen (another gas), when combined, produced water, which is not a part of either constituent. To get water, Hydrogen and Oxygen must combine.

If you add Carbon to the Oxygen/Hydrogen mix, you get Sugar, ... which, once again, was not a part of either of its constituents.

In the human sphere, people come together to produce all types of products, which were not a part of the various constituents. I worked for a company which produced jet engines from various metals and other constituents, of which human ingenuity was no small part.

So ... God's world is a generative world, where one thing or more may produce a new thing. Jesus said that faith ... "could move a mountain".

Faith has the power to do great things, whether feeding the hungry, freeing the captives, or healing the sick. Faith can even reproduce itself in others.

So ... rather than being circular, I would characterize the works proceeding from faith as forward moving ...

 

[Guojing]

It's not circular, because works doesn't produce faith.

In this world (God's creation), some things produce other things, which weren't part of the original.

For instance, Hydrogen (a gas) and Oxygen (another gas), when combined, produced water, which is not a part of either constituent. To get water, Hydrogen and Oxygen must combine.

If you add Carbon to the Oxygen/Hydrogen mix, you get Sugar, ... which, once again, was not a part of either of its constituents.

In the human sphere, people come together to produce all types of products, which were not a part of the various constituents. I worked for a company which produced jet engines from various metals and other constituents, of which human ingenuity was no small part.

So ... God's world is a generative world, where one thing or more may produce a new thing. Jesus said that faith ... "could move a mountain".

Faith has the power to do great things, whether feeding the hungry, freeing the captives, or healing the sick. Faith can even reproduce itself in others.

So ... rather than being circular, I would characterize the works proceeding from faith as forward moving ...

So to you, works are to faith what oxygen is to fire?

Oxygen does not result in fire, but when there is fire, there must be oxygen.

 

[A_Thinker]

So to you, works are to faith what oxygen is to fire?

Oxygen does not result in fire, but when there is fire, there must be oxygen.

More like my example of oxygen and water.

Oxygen does not contain water, ... but when coupled with Hydrogen, produces water H2O (which contains Oxygen at an atomic level)

You could say man's faith ... added to God's grace ... produces Godly works.

 

[Guojing]

More like my example of oxygen and water.

Oxygen does not contain water, ... but when coupled with Hydrogen, produces water H2O (which contains Oxygen at an atomic level)

You could say man's faith ... added to God's grace ... produces Godly works.

Oxygen exists even when there is no water correct? You cannot say no water, means no oxygen.

So how can you say, using your analogy, that no works means no faith?

 

[A_Thinker]

But in your example, why is it impossible for mans faith to not produce works?

Oxygen exists even when there is no water correct?

Some things happen naturally (i.e. within the plan and working of God).

Jesus said that a grain of wheat which falls into the ground ... WILL produce.

He also said that faith the size of a mustard seed ... WILL move mountains.

Radioactive materials naturally give off protons, neutrons, and energy ... becoming elementarily different than they were before ...

 

[Guojing]

Some things happen naturally (i.e. within the plan and working of God).

Jesus said that a grain of wheat which falls into the ground ... WILL produce.

He also said that faith the size of a mustard seed ... WILL move mountains.

Radioactive materials naturally give off protons, neutrons, and energy ... becoming elementarily different than they were before ...

So, why not use the fire and oxygen analogy instead, wouldn't that be a better one to describe your belief?

Fire always means presence of oxygen.

Thus, real faith will always means presence of works.

 

[A_Thinker]

So, why not use the fire and oxygen analogy instead, wouldn't that be a better one to describe your belief?

Wouldn't Jesus' analogies be most apt ?

Fire always means presence of oxygen.

Fire is fueled by oxygen, but is not the same as oxygen. But, without oxygen, the fire would extinguish. Also, oxygen itself, doesn't burn, but it activates the burning of other (burnable) materials.

Thus, real faith will always means presence of works.

Scripture says that faith PRODUCES works.

The way Paul words his explanation, they cannot be the same ...

Ephesians 2:8-10

8 Therefore, BY GRACE you are saved, THROUGH FAITH, and that not of yourselves. It is the GIFT of GOD.

9 NOT OF WORKS, so that noone should boast.

10 For WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Per Paul's words here, salvation occurs when man's FAITH meets God's GRACE ... and all of the work that produces salvation is God's (we are His workmanship).

However, having received God's work of salvation, we will go on to produce works which are a REFLECTION of the Father's. Not works of salvation (His work alone), ... but other Godly works (evangelism, comfort, peacemaking, healing, encouragement, etc).

 

[Guojing]

Wouldn't Jesus' analogies be most apt ?

Fire is fueled by oxygen, but is not the same as oxygen. But, without oxygen, the fire would extinguish. Also, oxygen itself, doesn't burn, but it activates the burning of other (burnable) materials.

Scripture says that faith PRODUCES works.

The way Paul words his explanation, they cannot be the same ...

Ephesians 2:8-10

8 Therefore, BY GRACE you are saved, THROUGH FAITH, and that not of yourselves. It is the GIFT of GOD.

9 NOT OF WORKS, so that noone should boast.

10 For WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Per Paul's words here, salvation occurs when man's FAITH meets God's GRACE ... and all of the work that produces salvation is God's (we are His workmanship).

However, having received God's work of salvation, we will go on to produce works which are a REFLECTION of the Father's. Not works of salvation (His work alone), ... but other Godly works (evangelism, comfort, peacemaking, healing, encouragement, etc).

So if you believe faith produces works, you are saying works are necessary for faith.