Happy Ascension Day

[The Liturgist]

Once again I find myself recommending a liturgy from All Saints Margaret Street, the excellent Anglo Catholic parish in London that historically rivals St. Magnus the Martyr (I greatly wish St. Magnus would livestream their services so we could do a comparison):

Also, here is a good Evangelical Catholic LCMS liturgy:

St. Martin in the Fields and St. Bartholomew the Great in London also had splendid services, which can be found on YouTube.

If anyone knows of any other good traditional Episcopalian, Canadian Anglican or North American Continuing Anglican services, or any good LCMS/LCC or other traditional Lutheran liturgies, or any Traditional Latin Mass services, I would like to see that. I was disappointed that neither the Old North Church Congregation in Boston nor St. Thomas Fifth Ave. had a service today.

I think there will be more Ascension services to be enjoyed next Thursday, as more Western churches get around to uploading their services and the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Ukrainian Greek Catholic churches stream their services.

I did found two liturgies from Ruthenian Greek Catholic Churches in America but the liturgical qLuality was disappointing (I think the best Ruthenian liturgics happen in the OCA and ROCOR, which attracted a number of Rusyns when united under the pre-revolutionary Russian church along with the Antiochians, who were in North America a diocese that was a part of the Russian church; then the revolution happened, most parishes following the death of Patriarch Tikhon left the Moscow Patriarchate and joined the Metropolia, which became the autocephalous OCA, or ROCOR, with the Antiochians becoming an autonomous Metropolis under the Patriarch of Antioch, and the American Carpatho Rusyn Orthodox Diocese moving in to attract more Ruthenians who were disaffected by the ban on married clergy; ACROD worship seems to be more true to Ruthenian traditions in terms of extensive use of Prostopinije, but has much better service books (the new “turqoise hymnal” in the Ruthenian Church is very unpopular and controversial), however, I think the blend of Ukrainian, Russian, Bulgarian and Ruthenian Church Slavonic musical traditions one hears in OCA and some ROCOR parishes, as well as at least one MP parish (St. Nicholas in Wilkes-Barre, PA) sounds closer to the sound of Prostopinije in Eastern European churches, including the Ruthenian Greek Catholics in Europe, the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia and some parishes of the Polish Orthodox Church (home to many Rusyns and Lemkos, the two main Carpathian-Ruthenian ethnic groups; the Polish Orthodox Church has a Polish majority and a very large ethnically Brazillian mission in Brazil, but sadly no presence in the US; there is a schismatic Portuguese Orthodox Church that used to be part of the Polish church).

 

[The Liturgist]

Interestingly Ascension Day, along with Christmas Day and Good Friday, is one of only three weekday liturgies John Wesley included in his Sunday Service Book for the Methodists of North America (1784), a recension of the Book of Common Prayer which unfortunately only the African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church (or it may be the AME Church) still uses a variant of on a denominational level; the work is vastly superior to the 1989 United Methodist Book of Worship. That said, there is a group in the Nazarene Church that is seeking to revise a Wesleyan Anglican liturgy, and is planting a church in Indiana towards this end. One project a colleague is working on that is almost finished is a traditional liturgy based on the the Sunday Service Book and the 1965 Methodist Episcopal Book of Worship.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Once again I find myself recommending a liturgy from All Saints Margaret Street, the excellent Anglo Catholic parish in London that historically rivals St. Magnus the Martyr churches get around to uploading their services and the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Ukrainian Greek Catholic churches stream their services.

We had a plain but good novus ordo Ascension mass in my home town. Music and a fair homily. Daughter and grandkids made it. Actually we joined them at their parish. Son in law would have been to mass at his work. I doubt it was livestreamed but maybe. I am so glad to be done with that quarantine stuff.

 

[Tigger45]

At Thursday’s Divine service (LCMS) the pastor actually pulled out the thurible and incensed the altar. Yep that’s right, let me repeat myself clearly and slowly for those still picking themselves off the floor. Thurible, incense, LCMS

 

[The Liturgist]

At Thursday’s Divine service (LCMS) the pastor actually pulled out the thurible and incensed the altar. Yep that’s right, let me repeat myself clearly and slowly for those still picking themselves off the floor. Thurible, incense, LCMS

I think @MarkRohfrietsch ‘s church uses incense, as does the Church of Sweden and certain other Lutheran churches in the Evangelical Catholic category (ELDONA, for example). This doesn’t shock me because we are talking about churches with churchmanship analogous to that of Anglo-Catholicism. I’ve heard that in Tennessee there is even a high church Methodist parish which uses the Thurible. Incense is de rigeur in high church liturtigical settings, and at the Episcopal church run by my friend Fr. Steve, who retired in 2014, although normally he wore a stole and alb, and not a chasuble, there was a thurifer also wearing an alb, vested as a subdeacon or reader (a very nice man; the people at that church were super nice but after Fr. Steve retired I did not want to continue there because his successor, who had served as a deacon during his last year, I liked as a person but had a bit of a standoffish attitude, and also the music director I did not think was very good, to the extent that I would normally go to the 8 AM said service, where an elderly gentleman served as Reader).

I once had the pleasure of attending Easter at the ELCA parish in Solvang, CA, which is a Danish town with a huge population of Danish immigrants. The pastor at the time was Finnish and his homily did not sit well with me, but this was my first exposure to the Lutheran Book of Worship (the “Green Hymnal”) which I enjoyed using, although I had not yet experienced the 2006 LCMS Lutheran Service Book, 1958 ALC hymnal or the 1940s Augustana hymnal, so my main points of comparison were problematic UCC hymnals and worship books, the exquisite 1941 Lutheran Hymnal and 1964/65 Methodist Hymnal and Book of Worship , the somewhat less exquisite “Blue Hymnal” LCMS version of the Lutheran Book of Worship, the solid 1980 Episcopal Hymnal, and the disappointing 1989 United Methodist Hymnal. I do recall there being some incense in the introit procession, but it could be a false memory, since the introits at Fr. Steve’s parish often had a thurifer, and also after Fr. Steve retired and I explored Eastern Orthodoxy and also the Coptic and Syriac churches, I became very used to priests and deacons censing the church, and this visit to Solvang was right before I joined Fr. Steve’s church.

Also there is the asperges at the introit of the Traditional Latin Mass, and at the end of the Coptic Divine Liturgy, the difference being Coptic Priests use their hands to splash holy water on you. However, on Pentecost, Syriac Orthodox priests use leaves, I am not sure of what plant, they look a bit like Elephant Ears but are doubtless something middle Eastern, and I don’t think they are Hyssop as these leaves are massive, but they are thoroughly soaked before the Divine Liturgy, and then during the kneeling service which is similiar to Eastern Orthodox Kneeling Vespers, although it is not a Vespers service but a standalone service following the same format, the priest uses the thoroughly inundated leaves to soak members of the congregation with a certain mischievous glee* after each of the three rounds of kneeling prayer. And the Eastern Orthodox do this on Theophany using a paintbrush to spread the Holy Water. And Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics I believe will use hyssop, and I think some Jewish rabbis or cantors, and Oriental and Assyrian priests as well, if it is available, but it does not grow well except in the Levant. However, the use of Holy Water and Incense combines to make a lovely service, and at the Coptic service, where truly massive amounts of incense are used (which I love, @Pavel Mosko can attest that a fog of incense smoke often lingers in Coptic and Assyrian churches at the end of a liturgy) the holy water splash at the end is extremely refreshing. The Methodist parish in Tennessee that I mentioned apparently has holy water fonts, which I have also seen in Lutheran and Anglican churches.

*For some cultural context into this seemingly bizarre practice, it is actually quite normal, and delightful in origin: Armenians, Pontic Greeks, and of course the Syriac Orthodox before the genocide of 1915 lived in large numbers in Turkey, and it is popular on a day in the summer which is basically Julian calendar Pentecost to splash people with water in Turkey and I believe Syria and Lebanon as well, as a result of Christian influence. This corresponds to the use of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Willows on Candlemas (the Feast of the Purification of the Virgin Mary, on February 2nd) in Czechia, Slovakia and Poland and the pinching on St. Patrick’s day, and the use of painted eggs by Christians and Yazidis, who I am convinced are a crypto-Christian religion, given their use of baptism and their Eucharist where a priest holds up a piece of bread and the congregation upon being asked “What is this” replies “It is the blood of Jesus” (Isa, with one s, in the Kurdish dialogue) around the time of Easter, and also Yazidi marriage parties stopping at each church on the route and asking for the blessing of the priest on their wedding, and a taboo against assaulting men of religion, which includes Christian clergy, and their hiding and defense of Armenians in the 1915 Genocide, which got them visas to the Republic of Armenia upon its formation where they now comprise the largest ethnic minority. I think they also do the water splashing thing, as do the Georgians, who live just to the north of Armenia.

 

[The Liturgist]

We had a plain but good novus ordo Ascension mass in my home town. Music and a fair homily. Daughter and grandkids made it. Actually we joined them at their parish. Son in law would have been to mass at his work. I doubt it was livestreamed but maybe. I am so glad to be done with that quarantine stuff.

Indeed. That said livestreaming is something I want to see continue, because even before Covid I loved watching videos of the Eucharist and other divine services on YouTube, and I compiled a massive playlist, which I still update, and have added additional playlists to, of liturgical services. Indeed it is the only way I have been able to personally experience the Mozarabic and Ambrosian liturgies, since business has taken me to Europe recently, I have unfortunately not been to Milan or Toledo. In addition, it allows me to view the services of churches which I could not conveniently access on a regular basisk for example, St. Mary Star of the Sea in San Francisco, and Dominican Rite masses in the Bay Area, as well as some Anglican churches in the UK, an Assyrian church in Australia which is the only one I know of which does an English language Raza.*

And before residential Internet was fast enough to do streaming video and before YouTube was a thing, I used to watch since my childhood Dr. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, who I also saw preach in person at his church shortly before his heart attack around New Years, 2007, which lead to his death and the ruination of the classical music program at that church by the now disgraced Pastor Tchividian, and also less frequently, the charming Rev. Robert Schuller of the Crystal Cathedral (who I also saw preach, and I attended one of the final performances of their Christmas pageant in 2009, before their financial situation became untenable and they had to sell to the Roman Catholic Diocese of Orange County and move to a smaller location, however, they had started out in a smaller church which also had beautiful modern architecture, and so I think they can come back. Unfortunately I was born after Archbishop Fulton Sheen had gone off the air, and he reposed in 1979, however, Rev. Schuller and especially Dr. Kennedy were a joy to hear preach, and the liturgy and music at Coral Ridge was first rate.

The only positive of Covid-19, the only silver lining on what is otherwise a profoundly dark cloud of despair and misery, that I can think of, is that many more churches now stream all of their services, and this is a real blessing when we are talking about Anglican parishes such as those I linked to above, or St. Nicholas Antiochian Cathedral and St. Sophia Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Los Angeles, or St. Tikhon’s Monastery, St. Josaphat’s Ukrainian Catholic Cathedral or St. Nicholas Cathedral in Seattle, or St. Thomas 5th Ave in New York City, the Old North Church and Park Street Church in Boston, and in the UK a vast number of churches including some of my favorites in the City of London like St. Bartholomew the Great, St. Stephen Walbrook and St. Sepulchre (still waiting for St. Mary le Bow and St. Magnus the Martyr, alas), and All Saints Margaret Street and St. Martin in the Fields in Westminster, and the splendid York Minster Cathedral, which has my favorite music program of any Anglican church (with Westminster Abbey in no. 2 and Gloucester Cathedral in no. 3; I have to confess to my C of E friends like @Anthony2019 that I find Canterbury Cathedral to be competent but not spectacular when it comes to music, not as good as York Minster or St. Thomas 5th Ave, where T. Tertius Noble was organist for a time before returning to York Minster, and the current boys choirmaster at Westminster Abbey also having worked there in the late 90s and early 2000s, where he was on the cutting edge of an initiative to improve the quality of boys choirs away from the kind of bland sound we might associate with the Vienna Boys Choir to the more dramatic sound that one hears in older recordings of Choral Evensong, and I also have to confess I find the musical programs at Southwark Cathedral, Bradford Cathedral, and St. David’s in Wales to be disappointing; conversely I think Birmingham and Manchester Cathedrals are hidden treasures. And of course St. Paul’s, Chichester, the Chapel Royal, King’s College in Cambridge, Christ Church in Oxford, Portsmouth Cathedral and Bristol Cathedral to be very good indeed. Historically, Leeds Parish Church, which has been upgraded to a cathedral, and the Temple Church, were excellent, and might still be; I should look to see if they are streaming.

There are also interesting churches to watch from denominational traditions removed from my own, including First Christian Church in Winchester, Kentucky, whose pastor I find myself liking and which has a good choir and a good organist (but no assistant, so on some Sundays they just have a pianist).

Lest anyone ask how I have time to watch all these church services, there is a very simple answer: I completely abhorr rock music, country western music, and indeed all forms of popular music more recent than swing music, which is really just a form of jazz, which I like, but only certain styles of jazz (Benny Goodman, Glenn Miller, Artie Shaw, Duke Ellington, Lalo Schifrin, Henry Mancini, John Barry, and certain Latin composers some of whom straddle the boundaries between Jazz, Classical and traditional folk music, for example the supremely talented Argentine tango composer Astor Piazzola. Furthermore, I spend much of my time working and studying, and while I am working or studying anything related to the ministry, sacred music and church services are the most appropriate for much of my work. I also will sleep to church music and certain liturgical church services such as choral evensong, the traditional Latin mass, and certain Orthodox liturgies which are either in English or else I know the prayers, because I pray those prayers as I fall asleep. I only use liturgies I am familiar with for this obviously; I mean, if I were taking a look at a potentially dubious church to see if their doctrines were agreeable or not, I would not want to go to sleep to that. Nor would I want to sleep to Turkish classical music, such as that performed on the Ney and drums and associated with Mevlefi Sufiism, or even Jewish cantillation of the style that emerged in the Orthodox Jewish Choral Synagogues in the 19th century, which is incredibly beautiful (especially the main synagogue in Moscow and some of the synagogues in the UK), because I disagree with the content of one of their prayers, the name of which translates as “the Eighteen” in English and is a litany of eighteen blessings; in the mid first century AD unfortunately they added a nineteenth petition to the liturgy, an imprecation against heretics, which was intended to target Christians as well as Essenes, Samaritans and related groups, and in Rabinnical usage doubtless is in opposition to Karaites and probably the Beta Israel, and vice versa (except I don’t think the Beta Israel, the Ethiopian Jews, have that litany), and also is used in an imprecatory manner between different sects, for example, Orthodox vs. Reform vs. Conservative/Masorti/Neolog vs. Reconstructionist, and within Orthodox Judaism, Charedim vs. Chassidim vs. Modern Orthodox, and between Chassidic dynasties and even between some rival factions in some Chassidic denominations, for example, between Chabad members who consider their late Rebbe to be the Messiah and those who do not, and while I have no qualms about praying imprecatory Psalms** there is clearly an issue in praying that Litany. Thus, while I love listening to Jewish sacred music, I want to avoid falling to sleep to their liturgies due to that and related problems.

*This word is Syriac for Mystery, the term used generically in the East for sacraments and in the Church of the East and Chaldean church for the Mass or Divine Liturgy, which is called the Qurbono Qadisho by the Syriac Orthodox, and the Syriac and Maronite Catholics, and the Qurbana Qadisha by some Iraqi Syriac Orthodox, and by the St. Thomas of Malankara, including the three Syriac Orthodox jurisdictions, the Christians of India Orthodox, Syro Malabar Catholic, Malankara Catholic and the Mar Thoma protestant church

**Sing Unto the Lord A New Song, for example, which is talking about sin if we use Alexandrian exegesis, and not, as some people only familiar with Antiochene literal-historical exegesis incorrectly assume, murdering Babylonian children; John Wesley struck these verses from his Psalter or intended to, as did the Anglican Church of Canada in the otherwise exquisite 1962 BCP; both were doubtless aware of Alexandrian exegesis but apparently deemed it would be too much work to chatechize the laity on what these Psalms actually are talking about; I disagree, but that is a controversial issue.

I find myself wishing that the Jews would delete the curse against heretics due to its origins in opposition to Christians, which had the effect of accelerating the Judaeo-Christian schism, and which now seems to promote sectarian tensions in Judaism, in response to Pope John Paul XXIII deleting the phrase “perfidis iudaeos” from the Good Friday Mass of the Presanctified in the 1962 Missale Romanum, which is one of the few decisions he made I very strongly agree with, because since written, the term perfidy has come to mean faithless in the sense of acting in bad faith or in a treacherous manner, even though the original intent of the petition in that litany was not actually anti-Semitic. Likewise, most Christian churches these days are, thankfully, overwhelmingly pro-Semitic.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I think @MarkRohfrietsch ‘s church uses incense, as does the Church of Sweden and certain other Lutheran churches in the Evangelical Catholic category (ELDONA, for example). This doesn’t shock me because we are talking about churches with churchmanship analogous to that of Anglo-Catholicism. I’ve heard that in Tennessee there is even a high church Methodist parish which uses the Thurible. Incense is de rigeur in high church liturtigical settings, and at the Episcopal church run by my friend Fr. Steve, who retired in 2014, although normally he wore a stole and alb, and not a chasuble, there was a thurifer also wearing an alb, vested as a subdeacon or reader (a very nice man; the people at that church were super nice but after Fr. Steve retired I did not want to continue there because his successor, who had served as a deacon during his last year, I liked as a person but had a bit of a standoffish attitude, and also the music director I did not think was very good, to the extent that I would normally go to the 8 AM said service, where an elderly gentleman served as Reader).

I once had the pleasure of attending Easter at the ELCA parish in Solvang, CA, which is a Danish town with a huge population of Danish immigrants. The pastor at the time was Finnish and his homily did not sit well with me, but this was my first exposure to the Lutheran Book of Worship (the “Green Hymnal”) which I enjoyed using, although I had not yet experienced the 2006 LCMS Lutheran Service Book, 1958 ALC hymnal or the 1940s Augustana hymnal, so my main points of comparison were problematic UCC hymnals and worship books, the exquisite 1941 Lutheran Hymnal and 1964/65 Methodist Hymnal and Book of Worship , the somewhat less exquisite “Blue Hymnal” LCMS version of the Lutheran Book of Worship, the solid 1980 Episcopal Hymnal, and the disappointing 1989 United Methodist Hymnal. I do recall there being some incense in the introit procession, but it could be a false memory, since the introits at Fr. Steve’s parish often had a thurifer, and also after Fr. Steve retired and I explored Eastern Orthodoxy and also the Coptic and Syriac churches, I became very used to priests and deacons censing the church, and this visit to Solvang was right before I joined Fr. Steve’s church.

Also there is the asperges at the introit of the Traditional Latin Mass, and at the end of the Coptic Divine Liturgy, the difference being Coptic Priests use their hands to splash holy water on you. However, on Pentecost, Syriac Orthodox priests use leaves, I am not sure of what plant, they look a bit like Elephant Ears but are doubtless something middle Eastern, and I don’t think they are Hyssop as these leaves are massive, but they are thoroughly soaked before the Divine Liturgy, and then during the kneeling service which is similiar to Eastern Orthodox Kneeling Vespers, although it is not a Vespers service but a standalone service following the same format, the priest uses the thoroughly inundated leaves to soak members of the congregation with a certain mischievous glee* after each of the three rounds of kneeling prayer. And the Eastern Orthodox do this on Theophany using a paintbrush to spread the Holy Water. And Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics I believe will use hyssop, and I think some Jewish rabbis or cantors, and Oriental and Assyrian priests as well, if it is available, but it does not grow well except in the Levant. However, the use of Holy Water and Incense combines to make a lovely service, and at the Coptic service, where truly massive amounts of incense are used (which I love, @Pavel Mosko can attest that a fog of incense smoke often lingers in Coptic and Assyrian churches at the end of a liturgy) the holy water splash at the end is extremely refreshing. The Methodist parish in Tennessee that I mentioned apparently has holy water fonts, which I have also seen in Lutheran and Anglican churches.

*For some cultural context into this seemingly bizarre practice, it is actually quite normal, and delightful in origin: Armenians, Pontic Greeks, and of course the Syriac Orthodox before the genocide of 1915 lived in large numbers in Turkey, and it is popular on a day in the summer which is basically Julian calendar Pentecost to splash people with water in Turkey and I believe Syria and Lebanon as well, as a result of Christian influence. This corresponds to the use of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Willows on Candlemas (the Feast of the Purification of the Virgin Mary, on February 2nd) in Czechia, Slovakia and Poland and the pinching on St. Patrick’s day, and the use of painted eggs by Christians and Yazidis, who I am convinced are a crypto-Christian religion, given their use of baptism and their Eucharist where a priest holds up a piece of bread and the congregation upon being asked “What is this” replies “It is the blood of Jesus” (Isa, with one s, in the Kurdish dialogue) around the time of Easter, and also Yazidi marriage parties stopping at each church on the route and asking for the blessing of the priest on their wedding, and a taboo against assaulting men of religion, which includes Christian clergy, and their hiding and defense of Armenians in the 1915 Genocide, which got them visas to the Republic of Armenia upon its formation where they now comprise the largest ethnic minority. I think they also do the water splashing thing, as do the Georgians, who live just to the north of Armenia.

Regrettably, no incense. Pastor, Myself and a few others would welcome its restoration in our parish, but with the recent push-back on every Sunday Eucharist, and from some other very things that should also be adiaphora, we have a long road of re-education ahead of us.

One whiner recently confronted Pastor, and Pastor suggested that he should attend the Bible Study series on Worship based on Professor Rev. Dr. Thomas Winger, president of our Seminary in St. Catherine's Ontario: Lutheranism 101 Worship

The reply he got was "I don't get anything out of those studies". My interpretation is "I'm not going because I might hear something I don't want to".

The two biggest hurdles to orthodox theology and orthodox practice are arrogance and ignorance.

Pastor must be doing a good job because he has the "woke" teachers mad at him, the "crypto-protestants" and "pietists and legalists" all mad at him.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Indeed. That said livestreaming is something I want to see continue, because even before Covid I loved watching videos of the Eucharist and other divine services on YouTube, and I compiled a massive playlist, which I still update, and have added additional playlists to, of liturgical services. Indeed it is the only way I have been able to personally experience the Mozarabic and Ambrosian liturgies, since business has taken me to Europe recently, I have unfortunately not been to Milan or Toledo. In addition, it allows me to view the services of churches which I could not conveniently access on a regular basisk for example, St. Mary Star of the Sea in San Francisco, and Dominican Rite masses in the Bay Area, as well as some Anglican churches in the UK, an Assyrian church in Australia which is the only one I know of which does an English language Raza.*

And before residential Internet was fast enough to do streaming video and before YouTube was a thing, I used to watch since my childhood Dr. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, who I also saw preach in person at his church shortly before his heart attack around New Years, 2007, which lead to his death and the ruination of the classical music program at that church by the now disgraced Pastor Tchividian, and also less frequently, the charming Rev. Robert Schuller of the Crystal Cathedral (who I also saw preach, and I attended one of the final performances of their Christmas pageant in 2009, before their financial situation became untenable and they had to sell to the Roman Catholic Diocese of Orange County and move to a smaller location, however, they had started out in a smaller church which also had beautiful modern architecture, and so I think they can come back. Unfortunately I was born after Archbishop Fulton Sheen had gone off the air, and he reposed in 1979, however, Rev. Schuller and especially Dr. Kennedy were a joy to hear preach, and the liturgy and music at Coral Ridge was first rate.

The only positive of Covid-19, the only silver lining on what is otherwise a profoundly dark cloud of despair and misery, that I can think of, is that many more churches now stream all of their services, and this is a real blessing when we are talking about Anglican parishes such as those I linked to above, or St. Nicholas Antiochian Cathedral and St. Sophia Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Los Angeles, or St. Tikhon’s Monastery, St. Josaphat’s Ukrainian Catholic Cathedral or St. Nicholas Cathedral in Seattle, or St. Thomas 5th Ave in New York City, the Old North Church and Park Street Church in Boston, and in the UK a vast number of churches including some of my favorites in the City of London like St. Bartholomew the Great, St. Stephen Walbrook and St. Sepulchre (still waiting for St. Mary le Bow and St. Magnus the Martyr, alas), and All Saints Margaret Street and St. Martin in the Fields in Westminster, and the splendid York Minster Cathedral, which has my favorite music program of any Anglican church (with Westminster Abbey in no. 2 and Gloucester Cathedral in no. 3; I have to confess to my C of E friends like @Anthony2019 that I find Canterbury Cathedral to be competent but not spectacular when it comes to music, not as good as York Minster or St. Thomas 5th Ave, where T. Tertius Noble was organist for a time before returning to York Minster, and the current boys choirmaster at Westminster Abbey also having worked there in the late 90s and early 2000s, where he was on the cutting edge of an initiative to improve the quality of boys choirs away from the kind of bland sound we might associate with the Vienna Boys Choir to the more dramatic sound that one hears in older recordings of Choral Evensong, and I also have to confess I find the musical programs at Southwark Cathedral, Bradford Cathedral, and St. David’s in Wales to be disappointing; conversely I think Birmingham and Manchester Cathedrals are hidden treasures. And of course St. Paul’s, Chichester, the Chapel Royal, King’s College in Cambridge, Christ Church in Oxford, Portsmouth Cathedral and Bristol Cathedral to be very good indeed. Historically, Leeds Parish Church, which has been upgraded to a cathedral, and the Temple Church, were excellent, and might still be; I should look to see if they are streaming.

There are also interesting churches to watch from denominational traditions removed from my own, including First Christian Church in Winchester, Kentucky, whose pastor I find myself liking and which has a good choir and a good organist (but no assistant, so on some Sundays they just have a pianist).

Lest anyone ask how I have time to watch all these church services, there is a very simple answer: I completely abhorr rock music, country western music, and indeed all forms of popular music more recent than swing music, which is really just a form of jazz, which I like, but only certain styles of jazz (Benny Goodman, Glenn Miller, Artie Shaw, Duke Ellington, Lalo Schifrin, Henry Mancini, John Barry, and certain Latin composers some of whom straddle the boundaries between Jazz, Classical and traditional folk music, for example the supremely talented Argentine tango composer Astor Piazzola. Furthermore, I spend much of my time working and studying, and while I am working or studying anything related to the ministry, sacred music and church services are the most appropriate for much of my work. I also will sleep to church music and certain liturgical church services such as choral evensong, the traditional Latin mass, and certain Orthodox liturgies which are either in English or else I know the prayers, because I pray those prayers as I fall asleep. I only use liturgies I am familiar with for this obviously; I mean, if I were taking a look at a potentially dubious church to see if their doctrines were agreeable or not, I would not want to go to sleep to that. Nor would I want to sleep to Turkish classical music, such as that performed on the Ney and drums and associated with Mevlefi Sufiism, or even Jewish cantillation of the style that emerged in the Orthodox Jewish Choral Synagogues in the 19th century, which is incredibly beautiful (especially the main synagogue in Moscow and some of the synagogues in the UK), because I disagree with the content of one of their prayers, the name of which translates as “the Eighteen” in English and is a litany of eighteen blessings; in the mid first century AD unfortunately they added a nineteenth petition to the liturgy, an imprecation against heretics, which was intended to target Christians as well as Essenes, Samaritans and related groups, and in Rabinnical usage doubtless is in opposition to Karaites and probably the Beta Israel, and vice versa (except I don’t think the Beta Israel, the Ethiopian Jews, have that litany), and also is used in an imprecatory manner between different sects, for example, Orthodox vs. Reform vs. Conservative/Masorti/Neolog vs. Reconstructionist, and within Orthodox Judaism, Charedim vs. Chassidim vs. Modern Orthodox, and between Chassidic dynasties and even between some rival factions in some Chassidic denominations, for example, between Chabad members who consider their late Rebbe to be the Messiah and those who do not, and while I have no qualms about praying imprecatory Psalms** there is clearly an issue in praying that Litany. Thus, while I love listening to Jewish sacred music, I want to avoid falling to sleep to their liturgies due to that and related problems.

*This word is Syriac for Mystery, the term used generically in the East for sacraments and in the Church of the East and Chaldean church for the Mass or Divine Liturgy, which is called the Qurbono Qadisho by the Syriac Orthodox, and the Syriac and Maronite Catholics, and the Qurbana Qadisha by some Iraqi Syriac Orthodox, and by the St. Thomas of Malankara, including the three Syriac Orthodox jurisdictions, the Christians of India Orthodox, Syro Malabar Catholic, Malankara Catholic and the Mar Thoma protestant church

**Sing Unto the Lord A New Song, for example, which is talking about sin if we use Alexandrian exegesis, and not, as some people only familiar with Antiochene literal-historical exegesis incorrectly assume, murdering Babylonian children; John Wesley struck these verses from his Psalter or intended to, as did the Anglican Church of Canada in the otherwise exquisite 1962 BCP; both were doubtless aware of Alexandrian exegesis but apparently deemed it would be too much work to chatechize the laity on what these Psalms actually are talking about; I disagree, but that is a controversial issue.

I find myself wishing that the Jews would delete the curse against heretics due to its origins in opposition to Christians, which had the effect of accelerating the Judaeo-Christian schism, and which now seems to promote sectarian tensions in Judaism, in response to Pope John Paul XXIII deleting the phrase “perfidis iudaeos” from the Good Friday Mass of the Presanctified in the 1962 Missale Romanum, which is one of the few decisions he made I very strongly agree with, because since written, the term perfidy has come to mean faithless in the sense of acting in bad faith or in a treacherous manner, even though the original intent of the petition in that litany was not actually anti-Semitic. Likewise, most Christian churches these days are, thankfully, overwhelmingly pro-Semitic.

LSB omitted the prayer for the conversion of the Jews contained in the 1941 TLH.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

We actually did Vespers to satiate the whiners that complain that more people would come to services if we did not have the Eucharist. Guess how many came...

Well, if you subtract Pastor, myself who was assisting, our organist and her husband who provide music, the guy running the cameras, the guy ushering, Pastors wife and three children; we have 5 persons show up; one of which is another elder and his wife.

We had 15 watch on line; two of which were the organists husband that the AV guy, monitoring the service.

The previous Sunday, Pastor preached on the reasons why we must attend Church; the sermon starts just after 0:45 on the video:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=577709843641172

Discouraging to say the least.

 

[chevyontheriver]

We actually did Vespers to satiate the whiners that complain that more people would come to services if we did not have the Eucharist. Guess how many came...

Well, if you subtract Pastor, myself who was assisting, our organist and her husband who provide music, the guy running the cameras, the guy ushering, Pastors wife and three children; we have 5 persons show up; one of which is another elder and his wife.

We had 15 watch on line; two of which were the organists husband that the AV guy, monitoring the service.

The previous Sunday, Pastor preached on the reasons why we must attend Church; the sermon starts just after 0:45 on the video:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=577709843641172

Discouraging to say the least.

I have been contemplating trying to get a Vesper service going at my parish. Not to be at all anti-Eucharistic, but because so many laity here are actually saying the liturgy of the hours already by themselves following the Magnificat guidebooks or other guidebooks. So as a way for them to once in a while say it together communally as I think it was intended. We’ll see. I am still such a newcomer here, having moved in two years ago in the middle of Covidtide. Trying to get involved in a new parish during that was something. Trying to even find a new parish then was surreal.

I did get to visit my old parish two weeks ago. They did something right during Covid because even if the numbers were a bit off those who were there were vibrant. There were many people I didn’t recognize, and the kids were plentiful. One thing they did was to keep the parish school open to 3D learning at a time when the public schools were physically locked down. Parents migrated their kids to the Catholic school, the kids learned the faith and infected their parents with it. On Easter they had so many baptisms they had to defer confirmations to Pentecost. The choir wasn’t yet all the way back, but they had incense on a Sunday after Easter. They used to have incense frequently anyhow. As does my new parish. I get it that some people physically react to incense, but it is a net positive IMHO as long as those who have a physical problem with it can go at a different time when they have been told there will be no incense.

 

[Tigger45]

During the sermon the pastor mentioned that the last image while Jesus is ascending is with His Hands in the position of blessing and is often the image depicted of Christ over the altar in many Lutheran churches.

 

[The Liturgist]

LSB omitted the prayer for the conversion of the Jews contained in the 1941 TLH.

I support the prayer for the conversion of the Jews but not the use of an adjective that has changed in meaning, like perfidis, which combined with the Spanish Inquisition and the horrible conditions in the Roman Ghetto, combined to create a bad look. But the original intention of the prayer was good. Unfortunately by mistreating Jews over the years we have created stumbling blocks for their conversion, but some church leaders like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who I venerate as a saint, specifically as a hieromartyr, have helped a great deal to reverse this trend.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I have been contemplating trying to get a Vesper service going at my parish. Not to be at all anti-Eucharistic, but because so many laity here are actually saying the liturgy of the hours already by themselves following the Magnificat guidebooks or other guidebooks. So as a way for them to once in a while say it together communally as I think it was intended. We’ll see. I am still such a newcomer here, having moved in two years ago in the middle of Covidtide. Trying to get involved in a new parish during that was something. Trying to even find a new parish then was surreal.

I did get to visit my old parish two weeks ago. They did something right during Covid because even if the numbers were a bit off those who were there were vibrant. There were many people I didn’t recognize, and the kids were plentiful. One thing they did was to keep the parish school open to 3D learning at a time when the public schools were physically locked down. Parents migrated their kids to the Catholic school, the kids learned the faith and infected their parents with it. On Easter they had so many baptisms they had to defer confirmations to Pentecost. The choir wasn’t yet all the way back, but they had incense on a Sunday after Easter. They used to have incense frequently anyhow. As does my new parish. I get it that some people physically react to incense, but it is a net positive IMHO as long as those who have a physical problem with it can go at a different time when they have been told there will be no incense.

So did we; Baptisms and Funerals from the Church; with the familes consent, all but one Baptism was available on line.

I am an advocate of praying the hours; I am not, however, when it is used in place of the Eucharist, unless only a lay-person is available to lead.

Our Pastor does Matins and Vespers every day; 3 days a week (during his office hours) everyone is invited to join; few ever have; offers private confession 24/7.

 

[The Liturgist]

We actually did Vespers to satiate the whiners that complain that more people would come to services if we did not have the Eucharist. Guess how many came...

Well, if you subtract Pastor, myself who was assisting, our organist and her husband who provide music, the guy running the cameras, the guy ushering, Pastors wife and three children; we have 5 persons show up; one of which is another elder and his wife.

We had 15 watch on line; two of which were the organists husband that the AV guy, monitoring the service.

The previous Sunday, Pastor preached on the reasons why we must attend Church; the sermon starts just after 0:45 on the video:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=577709843641172

Discouraging to say the least.

Actually you did better than you think. I think Divine Office attendance, particularly Vesperal attendance, is indicative of congregational health. The Anglicans revived the Divine Office with Choral Evensong and it is still popular in the places that have it, and in the Eastern Orthodox (especially the Slavonic churches in the former Soviet Union, Poland, Serbia and Bulgaria, and the OCA and ROCOR that follow the Athonite practice of All Night Vigils), Coptic Orthodox and Assyrian Church of the East, Vespers is very popular.

Therefore, I would suggest continuing Vespers and trying to get more people to attend, since new services take time to get a congregation. You know, many midweek Orthodox services have 5 people including the priest and a cantor, and the same is true of daily Catholic masses and historically, the Low Mass, and these services are still beautiful, and when I first launched my two missions I was happy to have 5 or more people, and over time they attract more.

Also, the reason for doing the Divine Office is because it is something of a sacred duty. It helps to have the attitude that “we would pray this anyway, but rather than praying it privately, we will pray it together, and maybe more people will show up.” This attitude also works for Matins and the Hours.

One frustration of my current arrangements is that I do not at present have a dedicated building, but if I did, I would celebrate a full divine office, and I intend to do something along those lines this year.

 

[The Liturgist]

So did we; Baptisms and Funerals from the Church; with the familes consent, all but one Baptism was available on line.

I am an advocate of praying the hours; I am not, however, when it is used in place of the Eucharist, unless only a lay-person is available to lead.

Our Pastor does Matins and Vespers every day; 3 days a week (during his office hours) everyone is invited to join; few ever have; offers private confession 24/7.

That is fantastic, so he is doing it the way I advocate. I should just move to Canada and join your church since your Pastor does everything the way I think he should.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I support the prayer for the conversion of the Jews but not the use of an adjective that has changed in meaning, like perfidis, which combined with the Spanish Inquisition and the horrible conditions in the Roman Ghetto, combined to create a bad look. But the original intention of the prayer was good. Unfortunately by mistreating Jews over the years we have created stumbling blocks for their conversion, but some church leaders like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who I venerate as a saint, specifically as a hieromartyr, have helped a great deal to reverse this trend.

Collect 23 from The Lutheran Hymnal 1941 Page 104 is "For the Jews", number 24 is "For the Heathen".

 

[The Liturgist]

We actually did Vespers to satiate the whiners that complain that more people would come to services if we did not have the Eucharist. Guess how many came...

Well, if you subtract Pastor, myself who was assisting, our organist and her husband who provide music, the guy running the cameras, the guy ushering, Pastors wife and three children; we have 5 persons show up; one of which is another elder and his wife.

We had 15 watch on line; two of which were the organists husband that the AV guy, monitoring the service.

The previous Sunday, Pastor preached on the reasons why we must attend Church; the sermon starts just after 0:45 on the video:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=577709843641172

Discouraging to say the least.

By the way, that was a beautiful service. I can link you to some lovely Greek Orthodox matins and presanctified liturgies that have only two or three present.

Really, two or three is enough for any service including the Eucharist.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

By the way, that was a beautiful service. I can link you to some lovely Greek Orthodox matins and presanctified liturgies that have only two or three present.

Really, two or three is enough for any service including the Eucharist.

Indeed it is, for those present. For those willfully absent when they are able to attend, it is tragic.

 

[Tigger45]

Here’s a great depiction of Christ’s ascension from a feed I get from “Lutheran and religious art”

 

[The Liturgist]

Here’s a great depiction of Christ’s ascension from a feed I get from “Lutheran and religious art” View attachment 316532

Lovely. I have an awesome icon of the ascension which I will upload a photo of later today.

In the interim, St. Thomas 5th Ave did have a service on Thursday, they were just slow to upload it, so here it is, the finest Anglican music in the USA (Canada should have an entry, because they gave us Healey Willan, but the only recording of him in a Canadian church I found was at an LCMS parish, but I absolutely love the music of Healey Willan, I see it as on a par with Dyson and Howells). Now St. Thomas 5th Ave is where T Tertius Noble worked before he signed with York Minster.