God and Homosexuality

[Mechanical Bliss]

4th April 2003 at 12:13 AM Needing Help said this in Post #19

True, but isn't true that with an amount of training, and use of a particular portion of the brain, it will change to some extent? Or am I just spreading another urban legend?

That depends on what type of change you are talking about. In the case of the hypothalamus, it is an urban legend.

Beside the point, I believe in the statement that
Genetics + Environment = Behavior
I believe that homosexuality is due to environment entirely, and not in the least to genetics.

Sexual orientation is a biological response to a stimulus just like hunger or our instinct to excrete waste. It is an instinctual reaction. Not only do we observe differences in brain structures between homosexuals and heterosexuals (both humans and recently in study on sheep) but there are also biological differences at the level of the chromosome. This is not necessarily causation, but there is correlation.

Furthermore, if homosexuality were environmental entirely, there would be no higher incidence of homosexuality among identical twins versus fraternal twins. Similarly, there would not exist exclusively homosexual animals. And finally, one would expect certain environmental factors to cause it, yet homosexuality occurs in a relatively constant proportion of the human population across various cultures regardless of value systems or how children are raised. There have not been any environmental factors found common to homosexuals that would cause behavior. There are biological differences however. That and the fact that sexual behavior is instinctual should be very telling.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

4th April 2003 at 12:15 AM Needing Help said this in Post #20




Yes, but in what FORM of love?  I was primarily thinking of the brotherly love, type of love.  But I would be open to other ideas.  Love has several levels, specify to which you refer.

Evidently homosexual love exists on a higher "level" than brotherly love. The emotional love between two homosexual men or women is different than the friendly affection between two heterosexual men or women. It exists in the same way heterosexual couples have a love for each other.

 

[RunningBothRaces]

Well, I guess I have my research cut out for me. It is getting later here, and I have school tomorrow. By the time I get back I predict this thread to be at least 75 posts, if not more. But i'll work my way back through.

Good night, and God bless!

 

[Nazarene77]

AngelAmidala is on the case.

 

[Nazarene77]

It's funny how I start a thread about God's view on homosexuality (and I can do this because this is a Christian Forum site and the Bible speaks against it) with a very toned down voice and Bliss here comes in and flares up at me about it. It is he who needs to tone down his speech. That's the whole point of getting the mods in here; we'll just have to see what they say. AngelAmidala said she will get someone else who is more familiar with the open forums to come in here and clean up.

Anywayz, got to go job hunting tomorrow. Goodnight all.

 

[AngelAmidala]

[glow=teal]Admin Hat On[/glow]

For the time being, this thread will be closed until the moderators of this forum can review the thread and decide what is best.

Any questions or problems with that...my PM box is always open.

[glow=teal]Admin Hat Off[/glow]

 

[jayebrownlee]

right, I have opened this thread again, reluctantly. Please prove to me that you can conduct civalized debate or I will close and delete this thread.

I will not tolerate flaming and any more will result in warnings being issued.

[noflame][/noflame]

Thank you

Jay
CF Moderator

 

[Job_38]

4th April 2003 at 05:04 AM Needing Help said this in Post #15

No, bliss has every right to defend/post here if he chooses, even though his view are different from yours or mine.

To bliss's argument, I believe that homosexuals can love, on at least one level of love, yet you need to specify to whom, and on what level of love. And I do believe that we can all agree that murder is wrong, yet we don't all need to be murderers to gain this knowledge. You don't have to do something wrong to know it is.

To Nazarene, I believe you said something about people being born homosexual, but when I looked back I could not find that post. But if you consider it logically, homosexuality cannot be a genetic trait, otherwise there would be none. Other than that, there is nothing else that determines what you are when you are born. (Besides God, but I doubt he would make a man homosexual.) Homosexuality is a choice; race and gender is something you are born with.

And once again to Bliss, you could only call the statements Nazarene truely false, in your opinion, if you yourself do not believe in the principles found in the bible. If you do not, I see a long road ahead for this debate, but if you do, then you have no ground to stand on with your claim.

Your basis of love is obviously skewed, because only those who know God can love.

 

 

[Job_38]

4th April 2003 at 05:11 AM Mechanical Bliss said this in Post #18

I don't see how I'm doing wrong at all. Keep complaining all you like about the moderation, but you attacked homosexuals based upon a lie. In fact, in my opinion, your post is the one that needs to be toned down. I'm offended and have every right to be by such bigotry.

To Needing Help:

This is not simply about whether I believe the principles in the Bible or not. Clearly what he believes the principles of the Bible to be (which clearly differ from what other people interpret, but that's a whole other story) are irrelavent if his beliefs are not consistent with reality. You said it yourself: homosexuals can love each other. To say otherwise is to ignore reality.

 First off, you would first have to prove that it is a lie.

Second of all, if you are offended, then don't read it. I mean, its a lie isn't it? Why even debate it? Go on living your life and enjoy it, cause when your dead its just blank space right?

 

 

[Lanakila]

Mod hat on: Mechanical Bliss the one attacking is obviously you. Its called flaming and you have been warned. Nazarene is entitled to his opinion and its based in scripture which offends you. My honest opinion is get over it. God calls homosexuality sin, and speaks of it alot. We are all sinners, but the discussion is about homosexuality.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

If homosexuals didn't actually love each other, there would be no homosexual couples that would stay with each other without sex and/or until death according to the OP because homosexuals don't love each other. Since those couples exist (and other similar examples) it's a lie.

It is attacking homosexuals to say they cannot love. I know Christians think they have the upper hand on morality and they can insult anyone they want as long as they think their Biblical interpretation warrants it. What's funny is people didn't even catch the sarcastic tone in the opening post when the comparison is made.

I'm not surprised though. It's opinions like this that make homosexuals want to kill themselves. It's opinions like this that cause people to lose respect for Christians and their holier-than-thou attitude.

The post was completely out of the blue and is an attack on homosexuals for no other purpose than to attack. It's a lie, and anyone with any sense of reality can see that. I have nothing more to say here.

 

[Nazarene77]

4th April 2003 at 12:22 PM Mechanical Bliss said this in Post #31 It is attacking homosexuals to say they cannot love.

No, if you read carefully I said that homosexuals can learn to love those of the opposite sex if they choose to follow Christ.

 

[Nazarene77]

4th April 2003 at 11:45 AM Lanakila said this in Post #30
Mod hat on: Mechanical Bliss the one attacking is obviously you. Its called flaming and you have been warned. Nazarene is entitled to his opinion and its based in scripture which offends you. My honest opinion is get over it. God calls homosexuality sin, and speaks of it alot. We are all sinners, but the discussion is about homosexuality.

Thank you Lanakila. That's what we all needed to here.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

I'm inclined to agree with MB's opinion on the opening post.

The implication behind the opening post is that only heterosexuals are capable of "loving" one another (not to mention complete stereotyping of homosexuals in the process). If I was a homosexual, I would feel downright insulted by that implication.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

Of course the unsurprising double standard is upheld: it's A-OK for an opinion to be expressed about homosexuals that is a flame/attack/generalization/judgement/lie/insult (whatever you want to call it) about a group of people, but it's not okay for me to express that it is a lie or that I am quite insulted by it, and the reasoning behind why it's not okay?: mainly because it's "scriptural" (or rather someone's interpretation of what is "scriptural" because Christians obviously do not universally agree on their own doctrine as evidenced in the apologetics forum). As long as it's "scriptural" it's A-OK to sling insults and generalize a group of people that shows ignorance for who homosexuals really are: people--people who can and do truly love each other no matter what you say.

If I had made a post that generalized and insulted all Christians in the same way that was done about homosexuals in the opening post (say, about them not being able to love each other or being perverts), it would be even more unacceptable. But it's ok because it's about gays, right?

It makes me wonder what would happen if someone provided a "scriptural" basis for the argument that all atheists are delusional in that they truly cannot love each other either--homosexual or heterosexual. I bet someone could actually try to make that argument based upon something out of the Bible.

And I'd also like to point out that this is a "Christians Forum" but this specific part of the website is for both Christians and Non-Christians, so don't expect everyone to agree that insulting gays is ok because your religious beliefs allow it. Not everyone shares your religious beliefs--even people who do don't share your opinion on gays.

I'm outta here and back to the science forum where discussions are grounded in reason (mostly).

 

[Nazarene77]

Again, this is a Christian Forum site, and if you feel insulted, get over it. I think Lanakila made a good point.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

4th April 2003 at 05:46 PM Nazarene77 said this in Post #36



Again, this is a Christian Forum site, and if you feel insulted, get over it. I think Lanakila made a good point.

And again, this specific part of the forum is open to non-Christians also, and if you don't like being called out for being insulting, then get over it.

If you only wanted to maintain a one-sided opinion on the issue, you should have posted in another part of the forum where only Christians are permitted to post. You posted it here so you opened yourself up to it. Get over it.

Not only are there non-Christians who realize this, but your own fellow Christians do--that's right, it's not just that it's a Christian Forum because your own peers disagree, not just non-Christians. Perhaps you should read my last post on the double standard. Of course you think she made a good point: it's okay to insult as long as your scriptural interpretation warrants it. Both of you are biased against homosexuals (evidenced by other threads on homosexuality as well) and on this site it's evidently okay to insult homosexuals but not okay to call you out on it. It makes me wonder if it's okay to insult atheists or Muslims or pagans or whomever you like as long as it's "scriptural".

If you are going to make libelous generalizations and classify that group in an insulting way, don't expect everyone to laud you for it--whether it's under the guise of "scripture" or not.

 

[Nazarene77]

Mechanical Bliss, for the last time, you are entitled to your opinion, but please keep the tone down.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

My tone is down. I have merely been pointing out that the thread is insulting and that based upon the moderation, it's okay to insult a group of people as long as your scriptural interpretation warrants it.

 

[Freodin]

Hm, last time I checked this was not the dogmatic "I know God´s will" part of the forum.

The assertion is that a homosexual couple cannot "love" in the same way that a heterosexual couple can.

Well, I would like to see some backup for that claim - it can even be scriptual if you don´t have any other.