Glossolalia (speaking in tongues) and a theory on what really happened at Pentecost?

[The Righterzpen]

We can't run on opinions and ideas, we have to rightly divide the truth. Whether you or I think the gifts are operable or not currently is not the issue, it's whether we understand "how" they operate, and we should be able to show that with scripture.

Agreed, and you are not doing that, because what you are claiming is a "gift of God" isn't even a real language. In order for it to qualify as a tongue; it has to be a decipherable language; that does not have arbitrary interpretations.

 

[ARBITER01]

Because it was the fulfillment of the prophecy that warned Israel that they would be judged by a nation whose tongue they did not understand.

Why did Joel refer to "prophesying" instead of speaking with tongues?

 

[ARBITER01]

Agreed, and you are not doing that, because what you are claiming is a "gift of God" isn't even a real language. In order for it to qualify as a tongue; it has to be a decipherable language; that does not have arbitrary interpretations.

I've made no such claims other than posting what the various sections of scripture say on the issue. I have no need to post my opinion when The Holy Spirit and His writings can speak for me.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Paul, in the preceeding verse quote a passage from Isaiah 28:11 as proof of his idea that tongues is a sign gift to unbelievers. The context of Isaiah 28:11 is the Assyrian invasion of Judah. I am open to discussion on the relationship between the two passages (1 Corinthians and ISaiah 28), but my opinion is that Paul is using Isaiah 28:11 to point to the fact that Israel, the nation, has come under the curses of Deuteronomy 28:15ff to Deuteronomy 28:46. This is a long story--and I am not going to write much on this, but notice what Moses says in Deuteronomy 28:46... "They shall be a sign and a wonder against you and your offspring forever." Isaiah takes up this theme in his discussion in Isaiah 28 in the context of the "Day of the Lord." (see Isaiah 28:5 "In that day the LORD of hosts ... also 27:1; 26:1; 25:9). In Isaiah 28, when the Israelites heard foreign languages, it was to be seen as a sign that Israel was under the curses of Deuteronomy 28.

Hey! I just reread this. It's pretty brilliant. I think you are "spot on"!

It also confirms that the "Day of the Lord" commenced with the completion of the atonement!

Fascinating!

 

[The Righterzpen]

Why did Joel refer to "prophesying" instead of speaking with tongues?

Because prophesying as related to the Jew; was to declare how Jesus was the fulfillment of the OT. Which had very little application to the gentile who was "without the law". Now doesn't mean gentiles can't study and understand the OT. But the point of the law was that it was a foreshadow of the Messiah who was to fulfill it.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I've made no such claims other than posting what the various sections of scripture say on the issue. I have no need to post my opinion when The Holy Spirit and His writings can speak for me.

The Holy Spirit speaks through Scripture. What you believe is not upheld by Scripture.

For example; you are assuming tongues was a "spiritual language". No where in Scripture does it say that. When God spoke or angels spoke; it was always in languages all understood.

 

[ARBITER01]

Because prophesying as related to the Jew; was to declare how Jesus was the fulfillment of the OT. Which had very little application to the gentile who was "without the law". Now doesn't mean gentiles can't study and understand the OT. But the point of the law was that it was a foreshadow of the Messiah who was to fulfill it.

Wait a minute,...

Peter said this,...

Act 2:16 but this is that which hath been spoken by the prophet Joel;

Peter refers to the pouring out of The Holy Spirit and the gifts that were happening as what Joel prophesied, so my question stands, why did Joel refer to the event as prophesy and not tongue speaking?

 

[ARBITER01]

For example; you are assuming tongues was a "spiritual language". No where in Scripture does it say that. When God spoke or angels spoke; it was always in languages all understood.

I already provided scripture that states this,....

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but by the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Which.... hum.... just hit on something interesting in contemplating all of this:

If tongues was given "as a sign to unbelievers" and "the Jews seek after a sign" then speaking in tongues was not to take place outside of the presence of an adherent to Judaism. Which we know from the context of Acts that adherents to Judaism came from multiple cultural and linguistic backgrounds. Thus yes, hearing the gospel in foreign languages makes perfect sense in that context.

Thus if an unbeliever (adherent to Judaism) was not present and there was no one to "interpret" or to "receive" the message; the speaker was to keep silent.

Interesting historical application!

 

[The Righterzpen]

Wait a minute,...

Peter said this,...

Act 2:16 but this is that which hath been spoken by the prophet Joel;

Peter refers to the pouring out of The Holy Spirit and the gifts that were happening as what Joel prophesied, so my question stands, why did Joel refer to the event as prophesy and not tongue speaking?

Because the prophecy was to explain to the adherent of Judaism how the Messiah was the fulfillment of the OT.

 

[ARBITER01]

Which.... hum.... just hit on something interesting in contemplating all of this:

If tongues was given "as a sign to unbelievers" and "the Jews seek after a sign" then speaking in tongues was not to take place outside of the presence of an adherent to Judaism. Which we know from the context of Acts that adherents to Judaism came from multiple cultural and linguistic backgrounds. Thus yes, hearing the gospel in foreign languages makes perfect sense in that context.

Thus if an unbeliever (adherent to Judaism) was not present and there was no one to "interpret" or to "receive" the message; the speaker was to keep silent.

Interesting historical application!

I think you're tying the wrong things together. This is the age of the gentiles, the jews murdered their messiah and began murdering Jesus's disciples, so GOD turned unto the Nations. The Jewish people are currently under wrath.

Now,.....is there any scripture that states that the gift of tongues is for spreading the gospel? Over in Acts they heard the mighty works of GOD, but that is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. Is there a scripture section that teaches that tongues was for evangelizing?

 

[The Righterzpen]

I already provided scripture that states this,....

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but by the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

One can still speak mysteries in a deciferiable language that the hearers don't understand. Again, you are assuming that the mystery spoken is initially spoken in a non decipherable "spiritual language".

Go into a concordance and look up the word "mystery". How many times does Paul or Peter or whomever talk into the passage about declaring to the listeners "a mystery".

Read Ephesians 3. The mystery that is declared is Jesus Christ and the redemption plan!

 

[The Righterzpen]

I think you're tying the wrong things together. This is the age of the gentiles, the jews murdered their messiah and began murdering Jesus's disciples, so GOD turned unto the Nations. The Jewish people are currently under wrath.

Now,.....is there any scripture that states that the gift of tongues is for spreading the gospel? Over in Acts they heard the mighty works of GOD, but that is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. Is there a scripture section that teaches that tongues was for evangelizing?

Which here you've "shot your own doctrine in the foot". If tongues are a sign to the unbelievers; contextualized in Corinthians as "the Jews require a sign"; who as you say are currently under judgement. Your Assemblies of God congregations are not running off to synagogues to "speak in tongues" to a bunch of Jews; now are you?

So.....???

 

[The Righterzpen]

Now,.....is there any scripture that states that the gift of tongues is for spreading the gospel? Over in Acts they heard the mighty works of GOD, but that is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. Is there a scripture section that teaches that tongues was for evangelizing?

What is the purpose of the church? What is the great commission?

Besides, nowhere in Scripture do we see tongues took place outside of a public gathering. The other task the church is assigned to is to uphold other believers physically and spiritually. Which in that context makes tongues irrelevant; because t's not a sign for believers.

 

[ARBITER01]

Because the prophecy was to explain to the adherent of Judaism how the Messiah was the fulfillment of the OT.

That's not answering my question.

Remember here, The Holy Spirit spoke this through Joel, and predicted the event to be prophesying. Prophesying is not the same as a tongues message,.......................Unless the tongues message from The Holy Spirit is interpreted in the corporate assembly,.....

1Co 14:5 Now I would have you all speak with tongues, but rather that ye should prophesy: and greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

A tongues message by The Holy Spirit and an interpretation by The Holy Spirit also is equal to the gift of prophesying according to this passage of scripture.

Acts 2 is absolutely an "instance" where tongues were interpreted, Joel declared that it would be.

 

[ARBITER01]

Which here you've "shot your own doctrine in the foot". If tongues are a sign to the unbelievers; contextualized in Corinthians as "the Jews require a sign"; who as you say are currently under judgement. Your Assemblies of God congregations are not running off to synagogues to "speak in tongues" to a bunch of Jews; now are you?

So.....???

I'm not really all that interested in personal opinions, I'm just quoting scripture and trying to rightly divide.

 

[The Righterzpen]

That's not answering my question.

Remember here, The Holy Spirit spoke this through Joel, and predicted the event to be prophesying. Prophesying is not the same as a tongues message,.......................Unless the tongues message from The Holy Spirit is interpreted in the corporate assembly,.....

1Co 14:5 Now I would have you all speak with tongues, but rather that ye should prophesy: and greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

A tongues message by The Holy Spirit and an interpretation by The Holy Spirit also is equal to the gift of prophesying according to this passage of scripture.

Acts 2 is absolutely an "instance" where tongues were interpreted, Joel declared that it would be.

Read Acts 2:22 to the end. That testifies exactly what Peter explained to the Jews.

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth,.........

 

[The Righterzpen]

I'm not really all that interested in personal opinions, I'm just quoting scripture and trying to rightly divide.

Yes, and if you are not declaring to Jews in your congregation; "who require a sign" because "tongues is given as a sign to unbelievers". You would not be rightfully using the gift of tongues. Even if you were miraculously speaking foreign languages.

And in your attempts to instruct me; I'm learning a lot here. It's been a good "Berean work out"!

 

[ARBITER01]

Besides, nowhere in Scripture do we see tongues took place outside of a public gathering.

The gift of tongues has two specific operations in scripture,.... Praying and Corporate Speaking

The praying portion of it is by our human spirit, as I posted before,...

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

It's a personal prayer tongue that is between GOD and the believer.

The Corporate speaking portion of it is by The Holy Spirit,..

1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

As I already said, a tongues message by The Holy Spirit with the following interpretation by The Holy Spirit is equal to prophesying.

There is no mention of using the gift of tongues, the gift of prophesying, or any of the gifts for evangelizing,.... that would be the job of "offices" such as Evangelist, or Pastor, etc.

 

[ARBITER01]

Yes, and if you are not declaring to Jews in your congregation; "who require a sign" because "tongues is given as a sign to unbelievers". You would not be rightfully using the gift of tongues. Even if you were miraculously speaking foreign languages.

I'm not interested in taking your bait with your personal idea.