FLAT or ROUND Earth?

d taylor

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Do you have a citation, or is this just you saying?
On Faith and Works by Augustine On Faith and Works

Let us now consider the question of faith. In the first place, we feel that we should advise the faithful that they would endanger the salvation of their souls if they acted on the false assurance that faith alone is sufficient for salvation or that they need not perform good works in order to be saved. This, in fact, is what some had thought even in the time of the apostles. For at that time there were some who did not understand certain rather obscure passages of St. Paul, and who thought therefore that he had said: Let us do evil that there may come good [Rom. 3:8]. [….]
 
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d taylor

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Saint Augustine was a wonderful theologian and writer. I highly recommend you take the time to read what he actually wrote and think/pray upon those words.

I do not need his way of thinking about The Bible.
 
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prodromos

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On Faith and Works by Augustine On Faith and Works

Let us now consider the question of faith. In the first place, we feel that we should advise the faithful that they would endanger the salvation of their souls if they acted on the false assurance that faith alone is sufficient for salvation or that they need not perform good works in order to be saved. This, in fact, is what some had thought even in the time of the apostles. For at that time there were some who did not understand certain rather obscure passages of St. Paul, and who thought therefore that he had said: Let us do evil that there may come good [Rom. 3:8]. [….]
I recommend you read on further to properly understand, as he quotes many verses of Scripture showing that faith without accompanying good works is dead.
 
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prodromos

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I do not need his way of thinking about The Bible.
Not when you've got your own personal way of thinking, which is of course infallible :doh:
 
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prodromos

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Never said it did, but if it did people still would not believe it. I mean how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life can not get any plainer than John 6:47. But people do not believe that simple and to the point verse.
The New Testament has a great many verses stating what is required for eternal life. One verse does not negate all the others.
 
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d taylor

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I recommend you read on further to properly understand, as he quotes many verses of Scripture showing that faith without accompanying good works is dead.

I understand his position, i have debated it many times on this forum. From many members who believe as Augustine does.
 
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d taylor

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The New Testament has a great many verses stating what is required for eternal life. One verse does not negate all the others.

That is correct, here they are.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believe in Me has everlasting life.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
 
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prodromos

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That is correct, here they are.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believe in Me has everlasting life.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
LOL, you've posted a tiny fraction of them.
 
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prodromos

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I understand his position, i have debated it many times on this forum. From many members who believe as Augustine does.
Belief is passive, faith requires action.
You can believe a bridge will hold your weight, but you don't have faith unless you walk across the bridge.
 
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d taylor

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LOL, you've posted a tiny fraction of them.

Post your verse that show these verse are wrong, just remember, the verses you post should directly and clearly address receiving eternal life.
 
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d taylor

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Belief is passive, faith requires action.
You can believe a bridge will hold your weight, but you don't have faith unless you walk across the bridge.

That is an old and inaccurate illustration of faith. That is faith viewed from a works based belief.
Belief is being convinced a promise or statement is true.

In the case of The Bible we are dealing with God and not man who is capable of lying or failure. Where as God is not, so all God requires is belief in His promise, to receive His free gift of Eternal Life. As God alone knows mans/women's heart/mind and whether they have believed in His promise.

Now there is the after belief, that a permanent born again child of God should work toward. That is developing a successful life of discipleship, not to receive Eternal Life, but to receive well deserved rewards from The Messiah. But many born again children of God fail to do this, some even fall away from the faith.
 
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prodromos

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Post your verse that show these verse are wrong,
You misrepresent me. It is not my position that these verses are wrong, only that they do not paint the whole picture. They following passages show part of the wider picture.

John 6:47-58
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.”​
The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.”​

Mark 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.​

Luke 13:1-9
There were some present at that very time who told him of the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered thus? I tell you, No; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen upon whom the tower in Silo′am fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, No; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”​
And he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. And he said to the vinedresser, ‘Lo, these three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find none. Cut it down; why should it use up the ground?’ And he answered him, ‘Let it alone, sir, this year also, till I dig about it and put on manure. And if it bears fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.’”​

Revelation 2:1-5
“To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: ‘The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands.​
“‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear evil men but have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not, and found them to be false; I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary. But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.​
 
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prodromos

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That is an old and inaccurate illustration of faith. That is faith viewed from a works based belief.
Belief is being convinced a promise or statement is true.
The demons believe, and tremble.
 
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d taylor

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The demons believe, and tremble.


Salvation was never meant for demons but for the humans who are the seed of Adam. Demons (nephilim disembodied spirits) are the seeds of fallen angels. They are in the same fallen state as their fallen angelic fathers.

Jesus came and died for the sin of the world taking away the sin brought fourth by Adams act. As The Bible states angels long to look into this matter.
 
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dzheremi

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Human beings in general have known that the Earth is spherical since at least the times of the pagan Greeks. Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of Earth c. 240 BC, and that was already a widely accepted view when he did it (the debate was about the size of Earth, not whether it is round or flat). There is no real debate on this matter, and the idea that this is something that many Christians in particular have taken up is ridiculous. Of course in the world's largest religion you can find a number who will believe in basically anything you can think of (and probably many things you can't), but that does not mean anything beyond being a demonstration that some fraction of people are fools.
 
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d taylor

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It is an illustration informed by James chapter 2

This section in James is not addressing what a believer must do to receive Eternal Life.

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

The above is not addressing what a believer must do to receive Eternal Life salvation, to become a permanent born again child of God. The save here addressing the saving of believers from physical harm or death.

God knows a persons heart/mind and whether they have believed in The Messiah for Eternal Life. God does not need to see physical acts from a person who is a believer, to know that this person is a true believer.

The physical acts preformed by a believer is to show fellow believers they are in the faith. But they have already crossed over from death to life, the very moment they believe in Jesus for Eternal Life salvation

Works a believers does, has no impact on the believers initial reception of God's free gift of Eternal Life. As stated, that happens in a moment of time, as long as it takes a person to believe in God's promise.

Now some may be involved in a church all their life, but have never believed in Jesus for Eternal Life. But if that person at some point (after years of church attendance and service) does believe in Jesus for Eternal Life, it is at that very moment they have become a born again child of God.

Works in the believers life, has merit towards eternal life inheritance (rewards). Also as they physically live as a faithful believer, it may keep them from discipline from God or attack from satan.
 
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BNR32FAN

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That is correct, here they are.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”


“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believe in Me has everlasting life.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
Apparently the people mentioned in Matthew 7:21-27 believed in Him. So did the goats in Matthew 25:31-46
 
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