Fairfax police academy bars Herndon officers in dispute over Chinese signature

[durangodawood]

I mean, sure, if by "ideal" you mean "what we tell ourselves that we're about as a country no matter what we actually do", then that makes perfect sense. I'm just saying that reality obviously doesn't match the ideal, so continuing to put the ideal out there as though that's what America 'is' seems a bit silly. To the elite who benefit from peddling image of it, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (a.k.a., North Korea) really does embody all of the stuff that they claim it does. That doesn't stop the rest of the world from declaring everything they produce to try to sell people on that idea to be obvious and cheap propaganda.

But no one here is arguing that Americans dont do what OP person did in rejecting the sig. We arent confused about whether that sort of thing goes on here. Of course it does. We all know it.

The argument is about what is right to do.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

What- evs

Just as I suspected. Happy to be proven right.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

That is not what she is asking him to do.

She is asking that he write his name using the English language alphabet characters rather than Chinese alphabet characters.
It doesn't matter how he spells his name, just write it using English characters.

Ma is a common last name in Chinese. It's written Ma using the English alphabet.
Using the Chinese alphabet it looks like this....嘛

When you tell a person they can’t sign their surname in the style and language as it was given, you are asking it to be anglicized, made acceptable to English-reading eyes through assimilation.

Spelling has nothing to do with it. What alphabet do your parents use? Is it some other alphabet than the 26-letter Latin alphabet? Do they use a foreign alphabet such as Arabic or Hebrew?

I didn’t say spelling had anything to do it.

When it comes to my signature, other than the first letter of my first name (sometimes), it uses nothing recognizable as a letter or series of letters in the alphabet. Like David Beckham’s signature in the previous example, you wouldn’t be able to recognize that as stating my name beyond my stating “yep, that’s my signature.”

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Its a better response than was merited

No, it wasn’t, but given our past interactions I do believe it was the best response you’re capable of giving while still skipping the inconvenience of having to answer for the very valid points I brought up.

The simple fact is that is referring to people as “alphabet soup” is dismissive, demeaning, and disrespectful. The “what-evs” confirms that was your intent and you couldn’t care less about the morality of such a casually malicious comment.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

When you tell a person they can’t sign their surname in the style and language as it was given, you are asking it to be anglicized, made acceptable to English-reading eyes through assimilation.

Is assimilation a bad thing?

If someone is moving to another country, it should be for reasons in the realm of "I like what they've got going on, I want to be a part of it", correct?

If I wanted to move to <insert random country here>, but then insisted that they make changes to accommodate my desire to embrace and honor US culture...then the practical question is "Why don't you just live in the US?"


There have been some progressives (and I'll narrow that down... white millennial progressives) who have seemed to want it both ways where they basically want to be able to criticize other white people so they can signal that "hey, look , see! I'm one of the good ones!"

If people don't embrace other cultural aspects enough (in their eyes), they're labelled as xenophobic.

If they embrace other cultures "too much" (in their eyes), that gets labelled as "cultural appropriation" that also comes with a fair amount of social chastising.


It becomes the moving goalposts game that we saw with the escalation of the pronouns conversation, where people went a long with it at first, but then quickly became apparent it was really about "finding a way to make sure privileged groups were in the wrong and publicly outed for it", because "If I can find a way to tell this other person about the ways that they need to educate themselves, the that makes me a good person"

Obama hit the nail on the head with that one when he gave his critique

 

[dzheremi]

But no one here is arguing that Americans dont do what OP person did in rejecting the sig. We arent confused about whether that sort of thing goes on here. Of course it does. We all know it.

The argument is about what is right to do.

Hmm? I'm not claiming that anyone says Americans don't do what the person did. I'm saying that since we all recognize that this is the sort of thing that happens here, maybe we should stop touting America as some kind "open society" that isn't nationalistic or prone to enforced cultural homogeneity like other countries are. Just because we're not like Japan in accepting barely any 'foreigners' at all doesn't mean that we don't accomplish the same sort of exclusion on cultural (in this case linguistic) grounds. America is free for everyone until you speak or write Chinese, or Arabic, or Irish, or whatever it is that makes the majority who don't know any better paranoid that you're up to something (whether that something is terrorism or just talking badly about people who can't understand you; it doesn't all have to be super high-stakes stuff, of course, hence why I've referred to the specific example in the OP as "silly", even though I'm sure it doesn't feel silly to people who are getting the message from it that their writing system is not welcome for anything other than ceremonial uses that are entirely restricted to their own community, lest the English-only crowd become confused and scared because it could say anything on that piece of paper!).

That's where the comparison to the DPRK comes in (it certainly doesn't fit in most other ways): We, like the people of the DPRK, tend to buy into our own myths and believe our own hype even though it is at the same time true that many average people have at least some vague inkling that things are not that simple, and that the rosy picture we're given just by participating in civic society to whatever degree we do is more aspirational than actual.

 

[durangodawood]

Hmm? I'm not claiming that anyone says Americans don't do what the person did. I'm saying that since we all recognize that this is the sort of thing that happens here, maybe we should stop touting America as some kind "open society" that isn't nationalistic or prone to enforced cultural homogeneity like other countries are. Just because we're not like Japan in accepting barely any 'foreigners' at all doesn't mean that we don't accomplish the same sort of exclusion on cultural (in this case linguistic) grounds. America is free for everyone until you speak or write Chinese, or Arabic, or Irish, or whatever it is that makes the majority who don't know any better paranoid that you're up to something (whether that something is terrorism or just talking badly about people who can't understand you; it doesn't all have to be super high-stakes stuff, of course, hence why I've referred to the specific example in the OP as "silly", even though I'm sure it doesn't feel silly to people who are getting the message from it that their writing system is not welcome for anything other than ceremonial uses that are entirely restricted to their own community, lest the English-only crowd become confused and scared because it could say anything on that piece of paper!).

That's where the comparison to the DPRK comes in (it certainly doesn't fit in most other ways): We, like the people of the DPRK, tend to buy into our own myths and believe our own hype even though it is at the same time true that many average people have at least some vague inkling that things are not that simple, and that the rosy picture we're given just by participating in civic society to whatever degree we do is more aspirational than actual.

USA has been interrogating its own national myths pretty intensely. You can see it in books and movies all the time Thats precisely why, for example, Estrid says we're obsessed with racism. Of course theres "conservative" push back when cherished myths dont hold up to reality. But self criticism is popping up all the time.

Can you imagine an historically self critical movie getting made in DPRK? That comparison seems particularly absurd.

 

[Hank77]

Is it though? I kind of thought that, but like I said before -- I've seen modern signatures and their resemblance to words is suspect. (And no, it wouldn't be fraud. When I put my scribble on the line I am saying it is "me" making my mark, not someone else. That is all. If I claim to sign for you, then it is fraud.)

This is what I was getting at.
If you signed your signature to a document that had my name printed on it I think that might be a fraud.
If the bank takes a credit application that says John Doe and you sign your signature with a scribble and you are not John Doe? I think the bank is going to ask for your government issued ID to prove you are John Doe.

Thanks for correcting me on the Finnish alphabet.

 

[dzheremi]

USA has been interrogating its own national myths pretty intensely. You can see it in books and movies all the time

Yes, yet no matter how often I watch "Dances with Wolves" (or, even better, "Dead Man"), somehow the myth of America remains. Every time someone (let's be honest, usually an American) insists that America is "the greatest country on Earth" (or the "most free", etc.), it's a testament to how ultimately ineffective and shallow even our attempts to realistically access who we are or who we have been actually are.

Can you imagine an historically self critical movie getting made in DPRK? That comparison seems particularly absurd.

Of course. But my initial point in doing this was as already described: Like the DPRK, we nurture the lie that we're some kind of exceptionally great place and people to a point that can seem pretty pathological. Obviously there's more self-criticism going on in the USA (particularly via the arts), but in a lot of ways, even when we do that it comes out weird. Think of the vast majority of modern big-budget American war films, for example, where the point is simultaneously the generic, obligatory "war is bad" message, but not coincidentally they make the U.S. military seem super cool at the same time. Like "It's definitely better to have peace, but if we can't for some reason, then look at all the cool stuff we can do with the push of a button and the largest military budget in the world!"

 

[Hank77]

When you tell a person they can’t sign their surname in the style and language as it was given, you are asking it to be anglicized, made acceptable to English-reading eyes through assimilation.

This document was being given to people with English-reading eyes. Maybe they would like to be able to read the name of the person signing their certificate.

 

[durangodawood]

Yes, yet no matter how often I watch "Dances with Wolves" (or, even better, "Dead Man"), somehow the myth of America remains. Every time someone (let's be honest, usually an American) insists that America is "the greatest country on Earth" (or the "most free", etc.), it's a testament to how ultimately ineffective and shallow even our attempts to realistically access who we are or who we have been actually are.

Curious what countries are better on average for accepting immigrants. I actually dont know. How does USA stack up in this regard against the rest of the world?

Of course. But my initial point in doing this was as already described: Like the DPRK, we nurture the lie that we're some kind of exceptionally great place and people to a point that can seem pretty pathological. Obviously there's more self-criticism going on in the USA (particularly via the arts), but in a lot of ways, even when we do that it comes out weird. Think of the vast majority of modern big-budget American war films, for example, where the point is simultaneously the generic, obligatory "war is bad" message, but not coincidentally they make the U.S. military seem super cool at the same time. Like "It's definitely better to have peace, but if we can't for some reason, then look at all the cool stuff we can do with the push of a button and the largest military budget in the world!"

No one is saying nationalism is dead in USA. Also curious what American anti war movies are you referring to?

 

[Arcangl86]

This document was being given to people with English-reading eyes. Maybe they would like to be able to read the name of the person signing their certificate.

Generally speaking signatures aren't readable anyway, so him signing in English wouldn't make a difference.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Curious what countries are better on average for accepting immigrants. I actually dont know. How does USA stack up in this regard against the rest of the world?

That's a tough one to gauge as the US is in something of a unique position in that regard.

A) the US immigration requirements are much more lax in comparison to other modernized countries

B) the US is in a unique position due to our geography and the country we happen to share a border with

C) the US shares a border with a country with a huge differential in terms of money valuation

For instance, if you look at Finland.
You have to establish residence there for an accumulated 7 years and be gainfully employed there before your eligible for full citizenship and benefits (meaning that's 7 years that you're paying hefty taxes into their system, and not reaping the generous benefits operating

Finland doesn't really have to worry about Norwegian or Swedish cartels operating on their borders, trying to sneak people in.

The incentive to sneak into Finland from Norway or Sweden, economically, would somewhat nil... unlike the US/Mexico situation, where the cost of things in Mexico is so cheap that if a person could sneak into the US and work for a month or two and then head back home (or legally engage in temporary economic migration via visa), that'd be an amount of money that while considered "not much" by US standards, would be considered a nice pile of cash by Mexico standards (in terms of purchasing power)


So in that regard, there's a difference in ratios between the US and other Westernized countries in terms of "migrating for purely economic reasons" vs "migrating for cultural/ideological reasons", the US is going to draw a lot more of the former than other countries do.

A person who says "I want to go to this other country to be part of that whole experience and ethos" is likely going to have a different set of impacts (good, bad, or otherwise) than a person who merely says "I want to go to this other country for 5 years, bank as much money as I can, live cheaply, and then send as much of it as I back home to the fam and move back"

 

[civilwarbuff]

In US law whatever you declare to be your
signature is your signature.

Could you please cite which law that is? It would need to be something done on at least a state level otherwise you get a patchwork quilt of laws that will often contradict each other (lawyer heaven).

Look at the guy's drivers license and go by that. If the state finds it acceptable so be it.